Houston Transit - Concealed Guns ok (with license)

[MP57313]

A short article in the Daily Breeze today (Jan. 28). Houston's transit agency repealed its ban on carrying concealed handguns on buses and commuter trains.
Evidently a {Texas?} law passed in 2003 stated that cities cannot bar licensed gun owners from carrying concealed weapons in public buildings.

[adrianspeeder]

Good, finally a law that makes sense.

Adrianspeeder

[Grinandbearit]

Carrying a concealed weapon makes sense???

[Clutch Cargo]

People will be a lot more polite to each other.

Kurt

[CSXrules4eva]

Concealed weapons hummmm....................I beleve that if you have a leagal legit permit to carry a weapon even a concealed one you should be allowed to carry it were ever you want on government property. It your carrying it on privite property and the property isn't yours than the rules change. If the owner of the property doesn't want you to carry weapons on their prop than the gun owner should obey the own's rule.
Speaking of concealed weapons in the transportation industry, many airline pilots are authorized to carry handguns (concealed weapons) on plains to protect themselves. I wonder what some workers in the rail industry think about this idea??//

[eastside]

I wish I could be so optimistic. That may be true of Houston, but having ridden the New York City subways every day for over 2 decades I can tell you that allowing concealed weapons would be catastrophe here. Imagine squeezing into a non-airconditioned subway car packed with people on a 90+ degree summer day. During rush hours expect to be pushed up against someone else for most of the ride. Tempers run pretty hot, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen fistfights break out between strangers over the merest incidental contact. Often one of the hotheads was a kid. Do you think kids run through the possible consequences in their heads before pulling a gun? Knowing the street kids here, I don't think so. In fact, a recurring story in the tabloids here has the theme: kid A perceives slight from kid B, runs home, gets gun, and shoots kid B. Obviously kid A had plenty of time to consider what he was doing. Just think what would have happened if one of them had had a weapon and had started shooting in a crowded subway car, or if both did. Almost no one in NYC qualifies for a license to carry a gun. Licenses are a meaningless formality to these people. I've seen people get injured in the panic trying to get away from the fistfights. That's bad enough.

Another time I saw a fender bender incident. One driver came out with a tire iron and the other a black jack. Fortunately other motorists got out of their cars and restrained both before they could come to blows. This wouldn't have happened if either had a gun.

[edblysard]

Ok,
You guys can calm down...

First, "kids" are not going to go through the process to apply for the conceled hand gun permit...

Second, you have to be 21.

Third, its a long, drawn out procedure, requires you to be fingerprinted, then subject to a fairly extensive background check through the Texas Rangers division of the Texas DPS, then the FBI gets to look you over.

If you pass muster, you pony up $90.00, and take a rules and application class from a state certified instructor.
Most of the class involves when you can, and can not use your firearm.
And yes, you have to qualify,, meaning you have to be able to shoot accuratly.
The results of your written test and shooting test are sent back to the State, and if you pass the class and background, they issue you a photo ID.

You have to requalify every four years.

If you carry a conceled handgun, it must be just that, conceled in such a manner that the average citizen can not see the gun in any manner.

If you use a shoulder holster, you have to wear a coat over the gun and hoslter, and the coat must completly cover the gun and holster, including the outline of the firearm.

So all you 44 mag Dirty Harry types are smooth outta luck, you cant hide a gun that big.

My wife carriers her Browing 380 either in her purse, or, like me, in a belt holster in the small of her back, under a coat.

The laws about when you can use your gun are pretty strict...along the lines of having to be able to prove you were in fear of your life.

No, you can not shoot someone who is moving away from you, nor can you let off a few rounds at the kids vandalizing your car.

If you do use your gun, you had better be able to prove, beyond any doubt, that you were in fear for yours, or someone elses life.

So the person you shoot better have a gun in their hand, and you better hope any witnesses to what happens see that gun...
(and yes, the instructor taught us that, if you do pull your weapon, you better darn well shoot to kill, because if you dont, you most likely will get shot yourself, and its hard for a dead bad guy to offer testimoney in court)

The conceled handgun law has been around for years, and the number of instances where a permitted holder has illegally shot anyone is almost nill...

As for kids and guns, if the kids is bad enought to want a gun in the first place, they certainly are not going to go to Sears and buy one in the sporting goods dept, they will get them just like they always have, off the streets.

Ed

[adrianspeeder]

100% truth Ed. Wish i could get my point across as easy as you do.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

Excellent points, Ed, and very well annunciated. It should also be pointed out that states like Texas, Utah, the Carolina's, etc., that allow a wide swath of the citizenry to qualify for concealed weapons permits tend to have far lower incidences of violent crime than do the states with extremely tight gun control laws, due to the criminals not knowing which of their potential victims are carrying protection. Overall, Texas (except for the border region......El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, etc.) has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the nation.

Sincerely, Ross R. Moore, Jr.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed. I don't know why people who don't live in Texas need to worry about this. We in Texas know this law has been very successful.

m

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grinandbearit

Carrying a concealed weapon makes sense???

Obviously you've never walked the streets of DC. Carrying an M1 tank with you would make sense, if you could find a place to park it.[:D]

[Puckdropper]

Wouldn't you want to drive it? It's got to be awfully heavy...

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

Wouldn't you want to drive it? It's got to be awfully heavy...

Okay, I plead guilty to sloppy grammar. If I could carry an M1 tank (which weighs 68 tons IIRC), I wouldn't need it.

[tree68]

Methinks that it's not the laws, but the culture that makes a huge difference in gun incidents. Remember - the gangs in LA (and elsewhere) know that members of other gangs are carrying. Still a lot of shooting going on. I suspect that if you plopped one of the major metropolises down in the middle of Texas, the murder rate would change a lot. Witness the disclaimer about the border region of Texas. Is the culture different there than in the panhandle? You betcha!

Start stuffing people into Houston's transit the way they do in NYC and see if the incidents rise. And hey, I might be Mister Cool with my gun 99 44/100% of the time, but don't push me...

BTW - I don't own any firearms.... My pellet pistol won't do a lot of damage. Probably just make you madder...

[dekemd]

Larry is right to a point. Culture does make a difference. Some of the gangs in LA and other big cities don't hesitate to shoot. Their attitude is shoot before the other guy shoots back. However, these same people are going to carry guns regardless of the law. Most of the gang-bangers are already convicted felons who cannot legally purchase, or possess a gun in most states. Take a look at DC. DC's gun laws are so strict that you cannot legally possess a handgun in your own home, yet DC has had the highest murder rate in the US for 14 of the last 15 years. England in another prime example. England banned nearly all guns about 6 years ago. Since then, their violent crime rate has risen 69%!

When concealed carry laws started becoming popular, the anti-gun groups ranted and raved that there would be shoot-outs on the streets, subways, and the sidewalks. It just hasn't happened. Florida was one of the first states to pass a concealed carry law. The percentage of CCW holders who have had their permits revoked due to misuse is .001%.

Take it from a LEO, the criminals are going to carry regardless of the law. The concealed carry laws just put the law-abiding on equal terms.

Derrick

[Anonymous]

I love reading posts from people who make sense.

thanks, Derrick

[vsmith]

Betcha NO ONE's gonna hop a turnstyle there....!!![:0][:D][;)][:o)][:I]



Just a postcard from beyond the edge...Vic[;)]

[edblysard]

Actually, there are not any turnstyles...just little machines,...ya feed it a buck and get a ticket...show the ticket to the train driver,(yes, they are drivers, from the Metro bus driver ranks) and have a seat.

Every once in a while, the Metro Police will check randomly for tickets.

So far, we have not had any shoot out in the streets...

The law in Texas is very strict about when you can shoot...

If a guy were to assualt you, but had no visible weapon, you cant shoot him, unless you can prove you were in fear for your life, and had no way to retreat or leave the scene.

On the other hand, if he sticks his hand in the pocket of his jacket, make the shape of a gun, and points it at you and say "stick 'em up", your free to let a little air out of him.

After sunset, if you find someone burglarizing your home or business, you can shoot to protect your property from theft.
But you have to be able to prove theft was the intent, not just vandalizing...
You cant shoot a vandal, but you can shoot a burglar!

So if the neighborhood punks are egging your car, you call the cops, but if they pop the lock, you can pop right back.

The class you have to take to get your conceled handgun permit involves a lot, and I mean a lot, of situational test and examples...you role play a lot, and get graded on your ability to make decisions.

Trust me, over 50% of the people who apply either never clear the back ground check, or fail the class.

You get two trys on the test, both the classroom and the actual shooting test,(target pratice).
Flunk twice, you cant get a permit, ever.

And, what isnt ever explained is that, whatever gun you qualify with is the only gun you can carry.

My wife qualified with her Browning .380, she cant carry my medium frame .357 magnum revolver, only her .380 semi automatic.

I have qualified with both, and can carry either one, but only one at a time.

If she wants to qualify for another gun, she would have to go through the entire process again, and qualify with the different firearm.

It aint like were all toting around 44 caliber hand cannons on each hip.

In fact according to the DPS, the most popular gun tested with and carried is the Lady Smith, a .38 caliber five shot super snub nosed revolver, made small for ladys hand, fits right into a small purse.

And the majority of those with permits to carry are women...it dosnt take to much thinking to figure out why.

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Methinks that it's not the laws, but the culture that makes a huge difference in gun incidents. Remember - the gangs in LA (and elsewhere) know that members of other gangs are carrying. Still a lot of shooting going on. I suspect that if you plopped one of the major metropolises down in the middle of Texas, the murder rate would change a lot. Witness the disclaimer about the border region of Texas. Is the culture different there than in the panhandle? You betcha!

Start stuffing people into Houston's transit the way they do in NYC and see if the incidents rise. And hey, I might be Mister Cool with my gun 99 44/100% of the time, but don't push me...

BTW - I don't own any firearms.... My pellet pistol won't do a lot of damage. Probably just make you madder...

Actually, the metropolises of Texas (little itty bitty places like Dallas, Forth Worth, San Antonio, Austin, etc.) are quite safe. The border areas along the Rio Grande Valley in Texas (and similar areas in Southern Arizona and the Southern Imperial Valley of California) have substantially higher violent crime rates affected by the coyotes of La Eme (heavily-armed smugglers of human beings, narco-traffickers, and a few rustlers and home-invasion robbers and truck hijackers thrown in for good measure, and frequently with a former background in the Mexican Army). I've lost four relatives on my mother's side in a couple of different locales in the Rio Grande Valley to those folks. That's why the good farmers and ranchers in that area are pretty well fed up with government's apparent abdication of responsibility in that regard by their not keeping the border safe, secure, and inpenetrable by that criminal crowd.

Sincerely, Ross R. Moore, Jr.

[adrianspeeder]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68


My pellet pistol won't do a lot of damage. Probably just make you madder...

One thing I ALWAYS point out is that any type of gun is deadly used correctly.

In fact when it is said to ban "assult rifles", that term fits even an air rifle pellet gun. Funny that's not what people mean when suggesting laws, but WILL say that if laws are passed banning "assult rifles".

Lets keep this goin clean and senseable.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I suspect that if you plopped one of the major metropolises down in the middle of Texas...

Please don't take this wrong, but just exactly what do you think Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth, San Antonio and Austin are? And El Paso is bigger than all of them if you include Ciudad Juarez (and it does sort of operate as a quasi-single unit).

And as to the Panhandle, if you go there you'll find a whole lot of people (read very high percentage of the population) legally packing firearms, hidden and/or visible. Guns are just part of life there. Meet a 6-foot rattlesnake on the street or in your yard once and you'll understand why. My sister, who lives there in a very small town, legally packs a concealed pistol--there's a prison and a criminal mental institution right up the highway and that's about as good a reason as you can get. Everybody else in the family up there carries rifles--this is a rural area (as is all of the Panhandle) and you need a gun to protect yourself and your livestock and crops.

Ed is right. Our handgun laws have been on the books for many years, are extremely strict, and do not result in killing rampages.

And I don't know that I've ever seen a showdown on the streets at high noon...

As to our Canadian friend--dump your snow shovel and come on down. About half of your Canadian brethren already do. You'll find generally good weather, at least by Canadian standards, we sorta speak the same language, eh?, and the people are generally very friendly, even if some of them do legally pack guns. But it does get hot in the summer.[C):-)]

Well, gotta go now, like all other of us Texans, saddle up, check out my longhorn cattle herd, shoot a few Injuns, go to the hangin, meet the 7 o'clock stagecoach, and ride off into the sunset....[:D][}:)][(-D][(-D][:-,]

[Anonymous]

Large cities are the reason for most of the violent crime. It's the same as the rat experiment. You put rats in a box together. Until you reach a certain population density, the get along fine. Once you exceed that density they start tearing each other to pieces. I know this will stir someone up, but , people are like rats. Exceed a certain population density and they start tearing each other up. That's why I personally will not live in a large city.
Oh, and I'm very much pro-concealed weapons. People are alot more careful what they do and say when the other person could be armed.

[Anonymous]

About the border...I've heard of some unbelieveable gunfights in Laredo.
m

[Anonymous]

Druggies--and none of them are packing heat legally, just like everywhere else.

[Kozzie]

drephpe - I love that last line - your sense of humour always gives me a laugh.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Guys, go back to the first post on this thread and reread it. Isn't it hilarious where this thread started out and where it's ended up? Aren't threads like this a blast?


m

[edblysard]

I did, and to add to that post, it is illegal to carry a conceled handgun into Federal and State offices...Exceptions are Federal Agents, and Texas Rangers.

Police officers are allowed to carry their holstered sidearm into State and local courts, but not into Federal court.

My wife works for the Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, in the child support division.
She can not take her firearm into her office, (she locks it in a steel box I installed in the rear deck of her Durango.
And, when a police officer comes to the office, to discuss or have a fit over their child support payments, she makes them take their firearm back out to their patrol car.
She threw a HPD Division Comander out of the office because he refused to remove his gun.

All you, as a private citizen have to do is post a sign stating "It is prohibited to carry a firearm on this property" and display it in a easily seen, prominent location, and those who do carry a firearm can not do so on that property, exceptions being police and federal officers involved in the execution of their duties.

We Texans have always carried guns, we hunt a lot, and carrying a hand gun had been normal here ever since we let the rest of the Union join up with us.

Find any little ole lady in her Oldsmobile land yacht, crusing down Post Oak Road, and I bet you find a 38 special tucked into the glove box!

Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed--

Yeah. Just make sure you deep six the rod before dropping by the airport. Not a smart choice if you don't. I nailed my sister (who is not used to the airplane business) just before hitting security at Love Field. A few steps further and it wouldn't have been a pretty sight (shades of Barry Switzer)[:-^]

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich

Guys, go back to the first post on this thread and reread it. Isn't it hilarious where this thread started out and where it's ended up?

I posted this after I saw it in our local paper, as it was something you would never see on California rail lines!

The response about the training process to get the permit was interesting. Several years ago a friend and I visited the Los Angeles Police Dept's "Fire Arms Training School" (FATS). The training includes an interactive DVD, where various people on the screen all of a sudden pull a gun, knife or other weapon. You, the officer trainee, hold a electronically wired standard-issue police "gun" that really kicks when you shoot it. You shoot at the people on the screen (only AFTER they make a threatening move) and your shots are recorded and you are later graded on your accuracy. It IS more difficult than it looks...and sometimes you might hit someone in the side, but if you are just a little off that would be considered shooting someone in the back.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpePlease don't take this wrong, but just exactly what do you think Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth, San Antonio and Austin are? And El Paso is bigger than all of them if you include Ciudad Juarez (and it does sort of operate as a quasi-single unit).

Dallas/Ft Worth - #9
Houston/Galveston - #10
San Antonio - #29
Austin - #37
El Paso - #63 (Exception Noted)
McAllen - #74
Source: http://www.demographia.com/db-usmet2000.htm

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysardWe Texans have always carried guns, we hunt a lot, and carrying a hand gun had been normal here ever since we let the rest of the Union join up with us.

I rest my case.