Anyone know details?
Train derails into Montana's Yellowstone River | Fox Business
Its MRL is this the main line? BNSF will probably jump in.
Yellowstone River bridge collapse causes train derailment by Billings (usatoday.com)
Question not answered in either article. Did the train derail causing the bridge to collapse OR did the bridge collapse causing the derailment.
Pictures indicate water running only a few feet beneath the track level. Scour of a bridge pier?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thought while mowing+++++ Since this is earthquake region could it have been that the earth moved enough to have support piers no longer supporting bridge? A quick check will probably eliminate this speculation.
Noting that there is one vertical bridge pier missing in the photo, I'm going with high water washing out the pier.
Ed
Has BNSF taken over yet, or will the repair be on MRL?
That was my question as well. Certainly cannot see the pier on any pictures but still not 100% sure? If pier gone then what?. Make a span that runs from existing piers Might be too heavy for those piers? Cannot imagine how to replace pier with the high water flow?
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Another article with photos from different angles including a drone camera broadside shot of the whole span if you scroll down far enough.
Also the very last photo shows what looks to be the west bridge pier also with a sever list.
https://www.ktvq.com/news/local-news/train-derailment-causes-water-facility-plant-shutdowns-in-yellowstone-county
I'd wonder if the missing pier had been subject to scouring from last year's floods that made it easier for this year's high water to "finish" the job.
This one is going to be one hell of a mess to clean up.
When the bridge piers were built what was the standard for installing the piers on the bottom? What kind of river bottom is at this location? rock, sand, silt. lava, etc ?
The question now becomes how is BNSF going to handle this need to detour trains that will no longer to use this route. This is going to effect many subdivisions and crew districts. As well MRL will have a surplus of crews and shortage on other crew districts.
How is this going to effect the Builder with obvious congestion on some of BNSF's route?
No surprise, really, as it emerges:
This site used to be known as Twin Bridges, because there were two parallel spans of the same fundamental construction, one rail, one road. The road bridge was removed in 2021 because...deep scour undermined two of the piers.
Record flooding on the Yellowstone in 2022.
Combine this with high water again at the time of the failure. A supposition that some are at pains to discredit is that MRL ceased inspection or maintenance of the bridge pier foundations because of the pending turnover to BNSF. It certainly seems strange that MRL would not have recognized that what befell the 'other twin' might concern their bridge as well.
What permitting is going to be required to replace the bridge?
If this has to go through years of permitting before replacement is allowed, will it even be feasible to detour trains from Laurel up to Great Falls and then reopen Great Falls to Helena?
https://mdt.mt.gov/other/webdata/external/planning/maps/railmap.pdf
The reason this throught occurred to me is because MRL-BNSF dodged an artillery shell because of the nature of the loads that ended up in the river.
If those loads had been hazardous and there had been a fish kill or other such event, it would have gotten East Paletine-type coverage.
And that thought has surely already occurred to the legal counsels at the various advocacy groups
I guess we will see how things play out.
kgbw49What permitting is going to be required to replace the bridge? ...
My recollection of a RR bridge taken out by a flooded river somewhere down south maybe a year or so ago, was that minimal permitting of emergency repairs to an existing bridge did not slow the repair down.
MidlandMike kgbw49 What permitting is going to be required to replace the bridge? ... My recollection of a RR bridge taken out by a flooded river somewhere down south maybe a year or so ago, was that minimal permitting of emergency repairs to an existing bridge did not slow the repair down.
kgbw49 What permitting is going to be required to replace the bridge? ...
Virtually ALL bridges (and the rest of the track structure) between New Orleans and Mobile were destroyed in Hurrican Katrina in September 2005. Bridges and the railroad were repaired and placed back in service in March 2006. I have no idea what if any permitting had to be obtained to rebuild everything through the wetlands that is the general characteristics all the are between the two point was - but it certainly didn't delay the rebuild.
Local comments were that CSX had its property rebuilt and back in operation before the state and Feds had even issued contracts to repair US 90 and I-10 that sustained damages in the same area.
Inasmuch as the railroad will be repairing their own property, not building new, I suspect permitting would be minimal, unless there is something particularly sensitive, environment-wise, involved.
Because the railroad is a private entity, it can do pretty much what it wants in terms of labor and materials. While union rates do figure in, they won't be as cumbersome as the statutory requirements faced by government entities, where there are bidding requirements, etc.
While government agencies tediously assemble requirements in preparation for requesting bids, the railroad will be hauling the materiel it needs from stock or from established vendors.
Kinda like painting your house - you decide what color you want, maybe hire a couple of local kids (or a handyman or even a painting company) to help you out, and paint away.
If it was a municipal building, odds are it would all have to go out to bid, meaning the bid specs have to be developed, perhaps a request for proposals put out, bids requested, opened, etc. You're sitting in your nicely painted house, the municipal property will get painted next year. Unless someone doesn't like the color and sues...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Hopefully this one will work the same.
The total of the spans seem to be about 10 car lengths.
It would seem to be in the range of 500 feet that it needs to span.
The adjacent highway bridge that was removed was built in 1930 and was 567 feet long.
https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/pnp/habshaer/mt/mt0600/mt0659/data/mt0659data.pdf
Page 17 of the attachment shows the comparative spans of the highway bridge and the railroad bridge to scale, and the length of spans seem very close.
It is clear that completely new piers of some sort will have to be constructed, but the question is going to be where and how.
How deep down will the new piers have to go to ensure there is not a repeat of a collapse?
What if it is determined that, like the former highway bridge, the location is not suitable for a replacement?
It just seems like this outage could last a very long time given the downstream usage of the river, the effects of the river at the the highway bridge and now the railroad bridge, which has ultimately proven to be catastrophic.
One would think that if there is to be a replacement bridge constructed at the same site, the oversight agencies are going to have a say in guaranteeing that the next bridge will be of a design that ensures that it will withstand the river forces at the site and will not come down.
It will not surprise me if they require a significant amount of study to determine just what that next bridge will have to look like to make that happen.
For instance, what would the replacement bridge have to look like if they don't allow piers in the riverbed at this location for the replacement bridge?
One would think all those questions are going to be asked and will have to be answered in this instance, because they aren't going to allow another complete failure of a bridge like this on a main railroad artery where another collapse with different materials ending up in the river could be many magnitudes worse then asphalt and molten sulphur.
This map shows Great Falls - Helena out of service. Could BNSF reactivate that route for relief? What is the track like? Stick rail? Crossties? Are there clearance issues? Trees, vegetation, washouts, rock slides? Grades? Obviously some reason inactive?
Montana Rail System (mt.gov)
Open railway map shows only 3 very short sidings on this Helena subdivision. ( less than 5000 feet maybe 2500 )
UP from the south is available.
blue streak 1 This map shows Great Falls - Helena out of service. Could BNSF reactivate that route for relief? What is the track like? Stick rail? Crossties? Are there clearance issues? Trees, vegetation, washouts, rock slides? Grades? Obviously some reason inactive? Montana Rail System (mt.gov) Open railway map shows only 3 very short sidings on this Helena subdivision. ( less than 5000 feet maybe 2500 )
Looks like it has been dormant for awhile
Streak,
The detour route is Laurel-Great Falls-Shelby. It has been upgraded from its GN days but IIRC is still relatively low capacity.
Mac
PNWRMNM Streak, The detour route is Laurel-Great Falls-Shelby. It has been upgraded from its GN days but IIRC is still relatively low capacity. Mac
The replacement of the bridge will have many possibilities.
1. BNSF is the owner with MRL leesee. 2 of 4 spans are destroyed. Usually depending on how any leese agreement is written the overall owner may be responsibile for replacement of any structure that has a major failure? Insurance coverages by both will come into play.
2. What caused this incident? Train or flood? That will have affect on insurance. Self insurance deductibles will come into play.
3. What happened to the missing support column?
4.. What is the condition of the other 2 supports? Can they reused or is scouring a problem? If present are not useable then that appears to be a complete loss for BNSF?
5. Where can BNSF find useable bridge trusses? Any under construction that can be acquired?
6. Worse case would be if new bridge has to span whole river without columns in river.
7. What federal and / or state agency(s) will have input?
The government (state and federal) really don't have anything to do with rebuilding the bridge.
There are laws regarding things like how high a railroad bridge has to be when going over a road, or how much clearance a road bridge must have going over a railroad. But about the only time the government would be involved in a bridge over a river would be if the bridge were over a navigable river, where I believe the Army Corps of Engineers would be involved to be sure boats and barges could pass safely. That's not the case here.
Now if (as it appears) the incident causes pollution in the river, that is a different story.
blue streak 1 The replacement of the bridge will have many possibilities. 7. What federal and / or state agency(s) will have input?
blue streak 1Surely there will some agency that will monitor water quality during reconstruction?
Likely the state environmental conservation people, or whatever they are known as there. That's who usually monitors such matters.
The feds might be involved if the river is considered "navigable." Even if no boats use it as such, sometimes the designation sticks.
Duplicate
wjstix The government (state and federal) really don't have anything to do with rebuilding the bridge. There are laws regarding things like how high a railroad bridge has to be when going over a road, or how much clearance a road bridge must have going over a railroad. But about the only time the government would be involved in a bridge over a river would be if the bridge were over a navigable river, where I believe the Army Corps of Engineers would be involved to be sure boats and barges could pass safely. That's not the case here. Now if (as it appears) the incident causes pollution in the river, that is a different story.
The Yellowstone is considered navigable all the way past Livingston. See part (E.) of the following
https://dnrc.mt.gov/licenses-and-permits/stream-permitting/
rdamon Looks like it has been dormant for awhile
The Great Falls-to-Helena line has been out of service for over two decades, mostly due to a large "slip out" between Great Falls and Ulm. The subdivision is now posted for 10 MPH (if in service, which it isn't). The route lost most of its traffic following the BN purchase of the Santa Fe. Prior to that, BN was an important player for traffic between the CP at Coutts/Sweet Grass and UP at Silver Bow, Montana. Once it became BNSF, which then had its own route to California, it became a competitor, and CP and UP began interchanging their common traffic at Kingsgate, BC/Eastport, ID.
--Mark Meyer
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