A Really Truly Radical Thought...

[jchnhtfd]

There has been a lot of conversation about grade crossing accidents... and prevention and control and all that... much of which boils down to somebody driving a vehicle didn't pay attention, or wouldn't, or did and tried to beat the train anyway.

Seems to me, though, that this is just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Highway accidents in the dear ol' USA take just about as many lives of folks daily as all other modes of transportation yearly; we are so used to it that, unless it hits home, it doesn't even make the evening news.

My thought is this: why is it that we take driving a car as a right, but driving/flying/operating pretty much anything else as a privilege to be earned and guarded and prized? If you are going to drive a commercial vehicle, the very least you need is a CDL and a log, and keep yourself substance-free (there are random checks, you know!). If you are going to fly a plane, you need a pilot's license and etc. If you are going to operate a train, you have to pass an apprenticeship and etc. But to drive a car? You pass one test, which is absolutely trivial, and you're on the road for the rest of your life.

What would happen if a driver's license was as tough to get as any of the other licenses/privileges? What would happen if there were random substance tests for all drivers -- and severe consequences if you failed? What if you had to keep a log, and be able to show you hadn't driven too long or too fast? What if you were personally responsible for the condition of your vehicle, and wound up hiking if it failed an inspection? Might it save a life or two, now and then?

Oh I know -- even with the tough licenses, pilots make mistakes and planes crash; truck drivers and bus drivers mess up and bad things happen, and locomotive engineers and conductors make mistakes, too -- but nowhere near as often.

Think about it.

Comments?

[Anonymous]

Yeah- I do have comments actually.

Look at how easy it is to get a Driver's liscence. I bet you can get a liscence in Arkansas jsut by saying the alphabet without pausing. (jokes) But jokes aside, Look at how many epople have Driver's permits- the majority of us. It's in mass demand. The test never gets harder when somehting is in mass demand. if one to many people screw up on the same question and they go to the person in charge of forumlating the test, they have a good chance at getting that question stricken from the test.

>> making it EASIER!

Look, I'm not putting my blame on anyone, But you have to look out what kind of people we are. We want somehting now, immediately. Not time to wait, sooner then soon. Impatience is our middle name. We don't have time to wait behind RR gates and wait for this Bugger train to go by, if we can get in front of it, we might make it to our destination on time.

It does have somehting to do with how organized we are in life. If your unorganized, you leave 5 minutes late, and look for any way to make up that time.

A train leaves at time scedualed, making it's allotted stops, always on time- why? it's organized. The RTC keeps it on track (BAHA! (see the pun?)) Unorganization leads to time missmanagment, Time missmanagement leads to Time Crunch- Time Crunchs often lead to tardyness, And that jsut beckons for any excuse to cut corners and make up time.

You'll enevr be able to remove all the level crossings,. nor will you have such a profound impact on society. Ghandi Wouldn't be able to starve himself enough to get people to obey Crossing warnings. That's a pure and simple fact.

Ever watch CSI? look at how fast the images flash from one scene to another, Have high speed internet, look at how fast web sites go- Thats what age we are in, to hell with Iron, bronze and what-not age, this is the age of Rapidity. an Amtrak going at 59MPh doesn't cut it anymore, it never did, and looks like a lame duck now.

As for vehicule damage- I've seen what people drive ion the USA and it shocks me- Colourized duct tape suddenly makes an acceptable break light/ flasher. Not in my land, your car/boat/whgatever has a dent that makes it a hazard, get it off the road. and don't bring it back until every piece works on it.

Why is flying so whatever you said? Simply beacuse your not in charge. You can't control the way the plane goes. Your in someone else's territory. ever tried being the guest of a house and taken control? I have- I'll never do it again, but I have. People usually don;'t do that at other people's houses, out of respect. When were in someody else's teritory, we act as a guest.

We're in our own car, king of the road.

See what i'm saying.. feel free to comment back.

[Anonymous]

Both good posts.
I've often said we freely qualify the unqualified to operate heavy machinery without a fixed guideway.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

45 Views, Two responses.

I'm jsut making sure the queery so to say didn't change to somehting so hard that people can only look but can't answer- nope still the same.

[tree68]

Both ends of the system have similar problems. We have 16 year olds who have well documented lack of judgement and increasingly shorter attention spans piloting 2000 pound rockets around with minimal (if any) training. New York requires a 5 hour "try to scare the hell out of you" course, you have to take a 20 or so question test , vision test,and then drive around the block with an inspector. Get past those four minor hurdles, keep your nose clean, pay the license fees, and you are set for the rest of your life. Which brings us to the other end of the spectrum.

The well-known case of the elderly gentleman who mowed down a bunch of pedestrians without even realizing it is just one extreme example of someone whose lifetime driver's license should have been pulled ages ago. The elderly driver is an acknowledged problem with a very vocal constituancy. Just try to take away their license!

In states with inspections, your personal vehicle is subject to more tests than you are.

Unfortunately, the answer is more dollars for the increased testing and administration. And don't forget that those drivers are also voters, so any politician who tries to stiffen up the requirements for obtaining and holding a drivers license better have lots of support from someone, or this will be his last term.

[mudchicken]

Driving a car is a priviledge, not a right by law. (Comes up every time the mandatory insurance bugaboo hits).....Does not stop people from driving w/o insurance or drivers licenses or drunk. Increase the consequences/ penalties and the liberal left whines and bawls. Accountable - who? us?...must be the other guys fault, not widdle me...

Truckers are supposed to keep logs - that system is a joke - does not work. Truckers call them comic books and fairy tales - enforcement is horribly uneven.[}:)]

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Driving a car is a priviledge, not a right by law.

There lies the rub - far too many people think it's a right.

[Mookie]

Add the fact that even the forum can't always agree on even a small point and you see why things don't happen.

And while you are talking licenses for everything - what about parenting? That's pretty important, too and we leave it to everyone's imagination.

I feel like we have become a huge house of liberties built on a very small, unsafe foundation.

Mook

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Kevin, just because people look and don't say anything means they disagree or don't care. If they disagree, smoke rises from their keyboard because they type so fast.

I know, But, Reverse psychology and history points out, when you put sarcasm like that on a page, it ups the responses.

I gave it a shot, seems to have worked.

[mudchicken]

Mark- Around here the radical left does not want to pay for insurance...the radical right does not want to pay taxes or pay for license plates. I'm trying to avoid getting rammed by one and/or shot by the other - and both need to learn how to drive.[X-)][X-)][X-)]

Have had more company trucks hit by unlicensed/ uninsured drivers than I have fingers on one hand. Like most surveyors, have been shot at and threatened by gun toting, alcohol fortified boobs far to many times. Spent too much time working in the Colorado extremes of Boulder (Left) and Colorado Springs (Right).....Think I'll move to Last Chance if a railroad ever goes through there.

[DSchmitt]

US Transportation Fatalities by Mode 1999 from the Victoria Transportation Polict Institute (www.vtpi.org)

Rate per billion passenger miles:

Passenger car occupants 8.4
Motorctcle passengers 22.0 correction 220
Truck occupants 7.4
School bus & transit bus occupants 0.7
Intercity bus occupants 0.2
Commercial air 0.3
Transit bus- total 3.7
Commuter rail-total 10.0
Subway-total 6.5
Light rail-total 15.7

total = includes vehicle occupents of other road users. Includes non-occupants and employees

[jchnhtfd]

I thought this might be interesting...

Mud -- it's quite true that enforcement of the CDL regulations for truckers is horribly uneven; if anything, that's a kind statement! However, the mechanism is there -- and really bad examples do tend to get weeded out.

But the fundamental problem remains -- as Larry notes, far too many people regard driving to be a right, not a privilege. And they all vote... so three things happen, all bad: first, the 'test' to get the license is absurdly easy, and is never repeated; second, the laws for enforcement are held to a ridiculous minimum; and third, what laws there are are not enforced (among them is the obligation to stop for railroad crossings -- all the time, if they are 'stop, look, listen' or when active).

Do I think these things can be changed? Probably not... but one has to admit that we spend far too much time and effort and money fixing the symptoms and far too little fixing the problem -- at least in my humble opinion.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Parenting is correct. Look, Between you and me and the lasp post, and these fine forum members, Paris Hilton on Tv is much easier to watch then your kids.

Thar be the truth, as long John Ag once said.

You know, it brings me back to a book I jsut read still life with crows First, all of the sudden murders start appearing in a small town- Was it bad parenting, aboslutely.

You see this book was taken from a real life event, when a child was secluded from the normal social life and was locked ina basement for years. this is what the book derives from/

This person was kept in a cave for 50 and change years before esacping. He had the mental age of a 5 year old and was hunting people down supposedly- but as you discover later on, he simply wants to play with them. Ofocurse, think about it. People aren't ment to be 50 years old with a 5 year old meant al capacity, he could abrley say any words other then "play wif me" he had the Strength of a 50 year old with 5 year old commands- ofcourse people are going to get killed- he doesn't know any better, he is simply playing with these people in a fashion he would find appropriate- its too late to teah him right/wrong/ innapropriate behaviours now.

this leads me back to my point- A child can not go through seclusion of any sort without psychologial disturbances. Perhaps, okay, not to that extent. But it effects the children in some way- ignoe- that fuels resentment, even that causes a disruption, hence attention is seeked in a negative fashion, That ultimately leads to crime.

what point am I arguing again? better scroll up.....

Oh yes, parents are ultimately responsible for the well being of their kids under the age of 18. I do put a limit on it, anyhting outside that is Square on the child.

I think that's all i need to say.

don't ignore your Children, for God's sake!

[Anonymous]

Two things I know: 1. driving a private motor vehicle on a public highway is not a right, it's a privilege. 2. there's nothing in the constitution that says we have to provide infrastructure for every auto the manufacturers can sell.

All over the country we seem to have difficulty coming up with adequate funds to eliminate traffic congestion. Politicians are wringing their hands over the lack of funds, cost overruns and the costs that accidents and delays impose on our health care system and the economy in general. Yet local elected officials still seem free to approve new development in areas that are accessible only to those who drive. We should be prohibiting any new development that is not at least as accessible and functional for those who don't drive as it is for those who do. No one should be forced to depend on modes of transportation so dangerous that they require seat belts, air bags or crash helmets.

[kog1027]

What the heck does this have to do with Trains?

Mark

[Anonymous]

What does it have to do with Trains? How are people who can't or don't want to drive cars supposed to travel?

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Driving a car is a priviledge, not a right by law.

There lies the rub - far too many people think it's a right.

In todays economic world, driving a vehicle is neither a right nor a privledge....IT IS AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY. Being restricted to non-motorized personal tranportation or public transportation severely limits the economic viability and potential of the population.

[adrianspeeder]

I been drivin since i have been able to reach a clutch, and yes it is way to easy to get a licence. My drivers test was a automatic econo car that i didnt even have to park. WAAAAYYYYYYY to easy, and doesn't really test anything.

Well at least I can feel that i know what im doin, but others that dont take driving serously...

Adrianspeeder

[ValleyX]

Everyone thinks that they're a better than average driver, I'm convinced that most people think they're outstanding drivers, myself included! However, the reality is out there on review each and every time we get behind the wheel, evidence is in the newspaper every morning. Driver's licenses are far too easy to get, I've always thought so (well, maybe not when I was 16).

As for drunken and impaired drivers, don't even want to start on that but I think the penalties ought to be far stricter and immediate than they are. We know these things aren't going to happen, though the crackdowns on DUI drivers have been more stringent than of old, still not unheard of to get it reduced to wreckless operation, though.

[Wdlgln005]

Let's face it, the people of the US are too lax on driving. We have a new police chief here in Nashville. I bet we have more drunk drivers killing than murders, every year, every month. I bet your town does, too. Do the police take it seriously? Or do they have to put up with shyster lawyers that put the drunk back on the street & drive again? So we treet the drunk better than the murderer, even tho he will kill more people today??

The same applies to grade crossings. One point made on this forum is loud & clear. We need to keep ALL cars & trucks off the rails. The steel truck that the City of New Orleans hit in IL may have been even more deadly than the crash in CA. Having the P whatever upfront didn't protect anybody.

So a radical idea would be to be much stricter on driving. For our own safety & security reasons, we have given away the right to drive. No more TV driving school to get your permit back. No more video game where you get to mow down pedestrians for points. Big fines & long jail times for drunks.

[adrianspeeder]

Well, I thought it was too easy when I got mine, and to help myself out, I trained to get a SCCA licence, and am working on my CDL. That CDL licence is what it should be like to get any licence. It will never happen though because most teens would look at the requirements, roll their eyes, and say "It's not fair". Believe me, that even happened with the regular licence.

Keep on truckin,
Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kog1027

What the heck does this have to do with Trains?

Mark

Forget how to read?

[daveklepper]

That is another reason why the USA needs a national public transportation system. Driving a car should NOT be a necessity. It was not a necessity 60 years ago because there was decent public transportation, buses, some remaining interurban and trolley lines, and lots of trains. With hybrid bus technology and a decent Amtrak, a national network that serves all communities could be a real asset.

Can you imagine what the LA-area incident would have been like if compressed Hydrogen gas had been on that SUV.

Electric battery technology is the way to USA energy independence and not this rediculous Hydrogen economy - fuel cell boondogle.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

That is another reason why the USA needs a national public transportation system. Driving a car should NOT be a necessity. It was not a necessity 60 years ago because there was decent public transportation, buses, some remaining interurban and trolley lines, and lots of trains.

The public transportation system was never as good as you think. In most of the country, before the automobile, no one reguarly went further than they could walk in an hour or so.

While I am not old enough to remember 60 years ago, I do have memories of 50 years ago. The farm town my family lived never did have public transit ans was miles from the nearest railroad.

[Anonymous]

There have been a lot of excellent points made here, and as much as I agree with most of them the issue for any meaningful change is one of practicality. Our society has developed a reliance on the automobile over the years that makes it almost impossible to change the status quo. Adrianspeeder has it exactly right when he says that the teenagers will start hollering "That's not fair", and they won't be the only ones. Add to that the multitude of immigrants that probably would be denied a driver license and you begin to see the scope of this. While you and I may agree that it should be much tougher to get a license, we all come from the same perspective. That perspective, simply stated, is "I've got mine, too bad for you." ValleyX called that one with the comment that "Everyone thinks they're a better than average driver". I'll give him a lot of credit for being honest enough to include himself in that. We should all be so honest.

So where does that leave us? The only route I see from a practical standpoint is better education coupled with tougher enforcement. No solution is cheap, but that would cost a lot less than an overhaul of the infrastructure to provide better public transportation. Even if we could afford that overhaul, could we convince people to give up the freedom of their own wheels? The freedom to go where they want when they want without having to deal with some other entity's timetable or schedule? I doubt it. We've all become too spoiled, myself included. Consider this, though. Suppose that serious traffic violations resulted in confiscation of the violator's car. The car would go, upon conviction, directly to the crusher. If you still owe payments, tough. Sounds good to me, but consider how much work that would create for the lawyers.... It's never as easy as it looks, is it?

Ah, well, just one old engineer's opinion. Good thread, guys. Keep it coming!

--JD

[Anonymous]

Not worth my time anymore.

[ValleyX]

Trouble is, I really do think I'm better than average and I'll match my driving record against most people. In 38 years of driving, I've had one parking ticket and one moving violation and that was for driving the wrong way on the beach in Florida. Only reason I turned around was because I had gotten stuck in the sand and couldn't get out without going the wrong way but the county mountie who gave me the ticket didn't want to hear about that, he was more interested in impressing the bikini-clad babe he was talking to before he cited me, but I could be wrong.

This isn't to say I couldn't go out tomorrow and do something incredibly stupid, I know better than that, but we all see things on the street that make us shudder and wonder. One of the things I see all the time is on the freeway that I drive to and from work, when a car passes me at a speed considerably over the speed limit, the driver is frequently female and probably under 25. What is it about these girls that make them think they're ace drivers and speed demons? Doesn't seem to matter about the weather conditions either, they're in a hurry to get wherever they're going.

This is straying far from a railroad topic but when I'm driving to work, that's what I'm going to do, a little railroading, just to keep it in the spirit of things.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by theNomad
Our society has developed a reliance on the automobile over the years that makes it almost impossible to change the status quo. Adrianspeeder has it exactly right when he says that the teenagers will start hollering "That's not fair", and they won't be the only ones.

Yep. Add GM, Ford, and all the other vehicle manufacturers; the oil companies, and all the other firms and individuals that make a living in this industry. Think aftermarket accessories, Kragen, AutoZone etc. The success of all these companies is helped to some degree by keeping drivers licenses easy to obtain and easy to keep.
MP

[Anonymous]

'Tougher law enforcement / Stricter Licensing' sounds good as a political sound bite, but it's not really enforceable. Illinois enacted much stricter DUI laws where they can confiscate the license plates and/or car, so what do offenders do - they get their wife, mother, friend, etc to buy the car and drive it unlicensed and uninsured. CDL licensing got stricter too, but our former Governor is under indictment for selling CDLs in exchange for campaign contributions. We also have mandatory insurance laws, but a number of 'companies' have sprung up that will sell you insurance for 1 month so you can get licensed or beat the no-insurance charge in traffic court.

The legal system is geared towards enforcement after a crime has occurred, not before. There aren't enogh police, ATF, DEA agents to check for potential criminals, nor is anyone willing to fund that level of law enforcement, not to mention issues with innocent until guilty, unreasonable search & seizure etc. There's no funding for jails either so they're overcrowded and people get out on early release programs.

Maybe some type of technical solution could work where drivers are 'registered' to the vehicle's computer, which checks a central database using a wireless connection. That would take years to phase in and some 13 year old kid would probably figure out how to hack it.

[Modelcar]

....Certainly agree with above statement of speeding and female and under 25....Where does that attitude come from...It for sure must be wide spread...