Overmod Euclid If the FRA decides to regulate railroads to limit train length and not block crossings with parked trains, what difference will it make whether the railroad was there before the crossing was? None, stated that way. Historically a crossing is generally assumed to be built with the road 'after' the railroad, so the train has the right of way under general circumstances, and state laws restraining the exercise of that right of way need to have explicit safety content before they are allowed to affect interstate commerce over the general system of transportation. That a proposed national law will need to have a clear and rational 'safety' purpose is something the government will need to establish, probably via legal challenges up to Supreme Court level. The FRA may still be smarting over the rebuke the NRC gave them over the fibbing relating to ECP brake 'safety' in the Obama-administration mandate. There may have to be a crossing-by-crossing determination of where actual 'safety' (rather than voter convenience or expediency) requires a train to be cut, and I expect that will go hand-in-hand with accelerated funding for crossing closings, or over/underpass construction, for those crossings that cannot be closed with reasonable alternative. Something that may get enhanced scrutiny is whether the 15-minute requirement is a 'stalking horse' to impose shorter train lengths on PSR-addled railroad operations management. The problem is that if so, it may be difficult to substantiate actual 'safety' basis... just as it was with the ECP brakes.
Euclid If the FRA decides to regulate railroads to limit train length and not block crossings with parked trains, what difference will it make whether the railroad was there before the crossing was?
None, stated that way. Historically a crossing is generally assumed to be built with the road 'after' the railroad, so the train has the right of way under general circumstances, and state laws restraining the exercise of that right of way need to have explicit safety content before they are allowed to affect interstate commerce over the general system of transportation.
That a proposed national law will need to have a clear and rational 'safety' purpose is something the government will need to establish, probably via legal challenges up to Supreme Court level. The FRA may still be smarting over the rebuke the NRC gave them over the fibbing relating to ECP brake 'safety' in the Obama-administration mandate. There may have to be a crossing-by-crossing determination of where actual 'safety' (rather than voter convenience or expediency) requires a train to be cut, and I expect that will go hand-in-hand with accelerated funding for crossing closings, or over/underpass construction, for those crossings that cannot be closed with reasonable alternative.
Something that may get enhanced scrutiny is whether the 15-minute requirement is a 'stalking horse' to impose shorter train lengths on PSR-addled railroad operations management. The problem is that if so, it may be difficult to substantiate actual 'safety' basis... just as it was with the ECP brakes.
I think I know what you are referring to as fibbing, but could you explain that? I came to the conclusion that the FRA did not make their case for the need for ECP brakes because they did not focus on any aspect of ECP that was not available with conventional air brakes. But times have changed with the advent of longer trains. They have no issues related to stopping distance, but they do have issues related to excessive in-train forces causing derailments. And ECP is the perfect solution to that problem.
The 'fibbing' was that the FRA mandate was premised on 'safety' that involved emergency stopping distance rather than full service. Anyone with even a smattering of experience with ECP understands why this is spurious: the one-pipe emergency application propagates at the speed of sound in compressed air, which results in only slightly slower time to full valve excursion, after which the actual air 'set' is identical: this is what translates into the ~3% reduction in emergency stopping distance.
The argument could have (and in my opinion should have) been presented in terms of the safety improvements for 'key trains' from the much quicker service application time, graduated release, and ability to modulate set and release differently for zones in a train consist -- but what the mandate actually called for was a trifling reduction in a fundamentally 'unsafe' train-braking mode, for billions in investment and a lag in physical implementation.
The ignorant try playing the Trump card about why the mandate was overturned in 2017, but it was true science-based rational analysis by people who actually cared about how trains get stopped.
We don't need to look further than Australian practice to appreciate the 'business case' for ECP in operations. And an increasingly realistic case can be built for ECP features, notably the ability to vary actuation in different 'zones', to make train-handling of very long consists MUCH safer than at present. (Which is essentially what you note.) The prospective fun, of course, is that policies to eliminate long consists clash with the 'safety' prerequisite for mandating change to an operationally incompatible system...
Don't the Federal and State programs for railroad crossing improvements include overpasses? Is it just crossing signals? I seem to remember this discussion before and there was usually a surplus each year in those funds in many states and the issue was not funding per se but whose jurisdiction the road was actually under. I know in rural areas of Wisconsin, suburban Milwaukee there are cases of "private" roads that the locality still does not want to take over or snow plow for that matter..............which I always thought was prehistoric but happy to say that condition where I live in Texas is hard to find.
This went out on the wires today.
https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/fra-awards-570mm-for-grade-crossing-elimination-projects/?RAchannel=news
Euclid I think I know what you are referring to as fibbing, but could you explain that? I came to the conclusion that the FRA did not make their case for the need for ECP brakes because they did not focus on any aspect of ECP that was not available with conventional air brakes. But times have changed with the advent of longer trains. They have no issues related to stopping distance, but they do have issues related to excessive in-train forces causing derailments. And ECP is the perfect solution to that problem.
Why we're talking about something unrelated to a stopped train blocking a crossing, I don't know.
I'm not convinced that ECP would be the panacea for long trains that some think it is. DP was supposed to be that, but trains still tear apart, and sometimes derail from in-train forces. Sometimes because the DP itself has issues.
ECP has been mainly tested and used on unit type trains. Either intermodal or bulk type trains, loaded or empty, where the equipment and weights are pretty uniform. A 15000 ft manifest with mixed loads and empties, mixed conventional and cushioned drawbars is something else. Like DP, ECP will certainly help, but will not eliminate the problem. Different cars, depending on weight are going to react differently when the brakes are set. Yes, there are slack adjusters and empty/load sensors that are supposed to try to make the brake application more uniform through the train, but they don't always work. (A couple of trips back we were stopped to inspect hot wheels on a car. We were expecting a handbrake, but the conductor found a slack adjuster on a car built last month that wasn't working. A carman came out and cut it off to get us rolling again.)
Empties set up harder than loads, that's going to still be the case and will probably still cause some movement of slack. IMO, it's not the service braking where most of the problems happen from the long trains, but when you get either a penalty application (cab signal, PTC, just because - it happens) or an emergency application because an air hose fails or a low hanging one hits a crossing and comes apart.
I'm not necessarily against ECP, but also don't expect it to be the cure-all some think it is. Mainly because of all the other things that have been deployed that the salesman said would cure all the ills that their specific gadgets address.
I've said before, that for many trains, the only time I have to use the air brakes is when stopping. Throttle modulation and dynamics can handle most situations for most trains, even some long and heavy ones if you plan ahead. I don't run the mountains, but we do have some long down hill sections.
Jeff
jeffhergertWhy we're talking about something unrelated to a stopped train blocking a crossing, I don't know.
It's someone's cause celebre...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Does anyone know which crossings will be upgraded and which ones will be erased?
rdamon This went out on the wires today. https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/fra-awards-570mm-for-grade-crossing-elimination-projects/?RAchannel=news
Great news!!! There should be a lot more funding and then we would not have kids crawling under trains or homeowners making dumb Youtube videos.
Seperate the street from the rails over or under where you have standing trains a lot and add gates and lights where you have cross bucks...........seems fairly simple to see this needs to be done on a large scale for our transportation network.
CMStPnP rdamon This went out on the wires today. https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/fra-awards-570mm-for-grade-crossing-elimination-projects/?RAchannel=news Great news!!! There should be a lot more funding and then we would not have kids crawling under trains or homeowners making dumb Youtube videos. Seperate the street from the rails over or under where you have standing trains a lot and add gates and lights where you have cross bucks...........seems fairly simple to see this needs to be done on a large scale for our transportation network.
No matter how many overpasses or underpasses are constructed - some individuals are going to find them inconvenient to use and they will still climb over or under a stopped train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDNo matter how many overpasses or underpasses are constructed - some individuals are going to find them inconvenient to use and they will still climb over or under a stopped train.
Utica, NY. North Genesee Street is on an overpass over the CSX Chicago Line, the Adirondack RR yard, and the Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern yards.
Easy walk over, on a sidewalk, to get from one side of the tracks to the other.
Nope - they'd rather cross the main and go through the yards.
Of course, a lot of that foot traffic that does that is people carrying bundles of recycled material to the recycling facility on the north side of the yard. Just my opinion, but I suspect that they go through the yard instead of over the bridge so they won't potentially attract the attention of the local police...
570 million sounds like a big number, but at 2-4 Million for a small grade separation, that won't go far. The Section 400 money is a sad leftover from what is robbed out of the till that magically winds up in the rubber tired camp instead of the steel wheeled set from which it was collected.
I'm just astounded that all these kids are risking death and injury to go to school!
Euclid I have no doubt that people are climbing over and under stopped trains, but this video has the look of being staged in some way. Obviously the kids are trespassing, but so are the people shooting the video. If this were somehow spontaneous, and kids approach and begin to climb onto the train, what responsible adult that just happens to be there is not going to advise the kids not to do it. Were these kids enticed to take on this role by telling them they were making the world safer by helping focus pressure onto the railroads to make them stop running the long trains? This appears to be PBS using these kids to manufacture drama for their show by expressing indignation over the railroad forcing little kids to risk their lives to go to school.
PBS didn't shoot the video. InvestigateTV did. Here's a link to the news story posted on their website that contains their full 10 minute long report (its the second video halfway down the page): https://www.investigatetv.com/2023/06/05/hundreds-millions-dollars-designated-eliminate-dangerous-rail-crossings/
According to the end of the report, Norfolk Southern saw the video and cancelled their interview with InvestigateTV. NS CEO Alan Shaw afterwards personally contacted the mayor of Hammond to discuss ways to fix the situation. I guess NS thinks its real.
mudchicken570 million sounds like a big number, but at 2-4 Million for a small grade separation, that won't go far. The Section 400 money is a sad leftover from what is robbed out of the till that magically winds up in the rubber tired camp instead of the steel wheeled set from which it was collected.
According to this evening's Baltimore news reports - the State of Maryland will get $1.5M of the 570 million.
EuclidI have no doubt that people are climbing over and under stopped trains, but this video has the look of being staged in some way. Obviously the kids are trespassing, but so are the people shooting the video. If this were somehow spontaneous, and kids approach and begin to climb onto the train, what responsible adult that just happens to be there is not going to advise the kids not to do it. Were these kids enticed to take on this role by telling them they were making the world safer by helping focus pressure onto the railroads to make them stop running the long trains?
Creative.
Back to the real world...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Speaking of the real world, there's some real interesting data posted on this FRA site:
https://www.fra.dot.gov/blockedcrossings/incidents
Checked my local area and the crossings reported to be blocked match up well with what I have personally witnessed, FWIW.
EuclidWhen I say it looks staged, I am only referring to the production.
So you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains?
zugmannSo you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains?
These days, that wouldn't surprise me in the least...
tree68 zugmann So you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains? These days, that wouldn't surprise me in the least...
zugmann So you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains?
zugmann Euclid When I say it looks staged, I am only referring to the production. So you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains?
Euclid When I say it looks staged, I am only referring to the production.
EuclidBut, in any case, it worked beautifully for the ultimate goal of eliminating the long trains caused by PSR.
That may have been mentioned, but in actuality, it has nothing to do with PSR. The phenomenon predates PSR by decades.
As we've discussed.
.
Euclid zugmann Euclid When I say it looks staged, I am only referring to the production. So you think they hired kids to crawl under the trains? No, I don’t think the kids were hired for their role. I do think they may have been encouraged by people engaged in making the video. The video makers may have even asked kids to demonstrate how they have to crawl under stopped trains on the way to school. I don’t believe that the video production was just objectively recording facts without any influence on the activity. In my opinion, the presence of the video crew with their trespassing and acquiescence to the crimes the kids were committing played a contributory role. But, in any case, it worked beautifully for the ultimate goal of eliminating the long trains caused by PSR.
It has done squat about anything. People are going to crawl through stopped trains anytime they feature the alternatives are inconvenient. That alternative can be less than a car length away from where they crawl through the train.
tree68 Euclid But, in any case, it worked beautifully for the ultimate goal of eliminating the long trains caused by PSR. That may have been mentioned, but in actuality, it has nothing to do with PSR. The phenomenon predates PSR by decades. As we've discussed.
Euclid But, in any case, it worked beautifully for the ultimate goal of eliminating the long trains caused by PSR.
Euclid When I say it looks staged, I am only referring to the production. Of course the trains and the kids interacting with them are real. The problem of blocked crossing is also real. I assume that NO arrangements were made with the railroad company to hold the trains for the filming; and that the railroad company had not been made aware of this video production beforehand. Am I wrong about that?
ABC RR: "Hello, ABC RR how may I help you?"
TV News: "Good morning, I'm So and So from TV News Now. We would like to do a story about children crawling under and through stopped trains on their way to school. We would like to film children actualling doing this at the 37th street crossing near your yard in that area. Because of filming deadlines, we're afraid that a train might not be blocking that crossing when we need it to. Can we arrange to have that crossing blocked? If possible, we would like to do it within the next few days."
ABC RR: "Why of course we can arrange this. We are happy to help out the media whenever we can. We haven't had a major media covered derailment within the last few weeks and need to get the word out to the public that we are still around. Do you need the crossing blocked for children going to or coming from school?"
TV News: "Really, time doesn't matter. We have some child-actors hired to do this, so we can film anytime. Afternoons work better for us."
ABC RR: "I understand completely. Checking our calendar, we could have a train block the 37th street crossing next Thursday afternoon, say about 1PM. Would that work out for you?
TV News: "That would work out perfectly for us. Oh, would the train be long enough? We wouldn't want it to look like they could just walk around the end of the train."
ABC RR: "That won't be a problem. We'll make sure the crossing is blocked by the middle of a 200 car train. Is there anything else I can help you with?"
TV News: "No, that's about all we need for now. Thank you for your help."
ABC RR: "Your very welcome. Good bye and have a good day."
EuclidI guess that when you say that “it” has nothing to do with PSR; you mean the people have been going under parked trains for probably at least 100 years, and PSR is a recent development. That is true, but so what?
People will go under/through a twenty car train if they think it's in their way. PSR may somewhat increase the situations where their favored shortcut is blocked, but making shorter trains will do nothing to eliminate the basic problem.
Even grade separations aren't going to help much. See my post about Utica.
jeffhergertABC RR: "Hello, ABC RR how may I help you?"
Very clever, thoughtful, and enjoyable. We could use more posts like this.
EuclidThey blame the evils of PSR on management greed just like you guys do.
I find it amusing some people are more upset about kids trying to get to school than they are about trains parking on crossings. Weird flex, but whatever...
Local town has a control point that is used for staging trains out of a yard in one direction, and used as a common recrew/holdout point for trains going the other. Back before PSR, the longest trains were 130-150 cars. They fit at the signal fine. These 200+ trains? They end up blocking crossings near their rear end. While they are not real busy xings, it's still something that didn't happen until the long trains of PSR/PSR Lite came about.
So yeah, these issues are not completely mutually exclusive. I know that's hard for the PSR fanboys and fangirls to understand at times.
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