As I recall, the initial reports were that the train had experienced a break-in-two about 55 cars back, with the train kind of draped over a summit. The initial train was in the vicinity of 150 cars, but that's not what ran away. Only those 55 cars took off.
The two lead engines were reportedly unable to push those 55 cars back up the hill to recouple. In fact, the weight of the train was sufficient to cause it to run away down the hill.
A HBD reported the speed as 118 MPH shortly before the train left the rails. The GPS report of almost 140 MPH doesn't seem out of order.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
One thing many overlook when Speed Restrictions are put in place on the railroad - either Permament or Temporary - the speed restriction applies to the entire length of the train - be that train 100 feet or 15000 feet in length. A short train can be braked to the speed of the Restriction in a much shorter distance than can a big train. The big train must stay at the speed of the restriction for the entirety of its length before it can attempt to accelerate back to track speed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There's an awful lot of supposition about East Palestine centering upon hot box detectors with the impression that warnings are routinely disregarded. Is that the case, or sensation? The media is just as deserving of suspicion as corporations and I am not sure I believe any of it until there is some thorough analysis presented by the STB. In over forty years of service I had never seen such warnings dismissed without careful analysis, with the tendency to err more on the side of caution. Then again, I have been retired for some years and things do not appear to have improved.
Mr. Lindsay's thoughts are in many instances justified, however, I disagree with the nationalization tendency in his comments. What we have here is a series of events bringing either temporary or longer term focus upon maladies in the present application of rail economies, depending upon what transpires with regard to derailment frequency or chaos going forward. A strong case may be made that regulation has significantly trailed necessary restraints upon economies in manpower, experience, maintenance and operations in general. Regulation generally trails developments. A strong case might also be made that the mergers of the 90s created this situation by reducing competition to next-to-nothing. And Lindsay is right – the highway system is already over-burdened with increasingly large trucks. So there is a valid element of national security at stake although I am pretty sure this is just a talking point and no one in fed'l gov't at present is much interested in that, what with everyone being so oppressed and other fal-de-rol.
I also take issue with statements that the railroad rights of way are in deplorable shape. Look at the era before deregulation and in many cases it is amazing anything got over the road with track conditions – although trains did and often in better shape than now. The railroads have driven themselves into a dogcatch/congestion circus that affects everything from kicking trains out of terminals to tying them down on mainlines/sidings with deteriorating crew bases to dig out of these episodes. I do not think nationalization will cure any of this, any more than it is evident in the highway system or any federally administered program. Good for unions, good for pork, otherwise Beware. Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient.
There is something to be said for alternative points of view and certain railroads have behaved cavalierly in many cases and brought this scrutiny upon themselves. Some may say this is a function of our system – money, money, money - and it is to the extent that it is encouraged or restrained and that's a tug-of-war that has been going on since Teddy Roosevelt, at least.
PennsyBoomer... Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient.
Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient.
Amtrak's inability to recover from situations that seriously delay their trains - no matter who or what is the cause; can be explained in one simple statement - lack of equipment. Amtrak has enough equipment to meet their daily schedule requirements - no more; therefore they are not in a position to 'cobble together' a proper set of equipment and operate the next scheduled departure of a train or service On Time. Amtrak is forced into the situation of either running the set of late equipment on short turnarounds until they get the equipment back into the On Time time slot, If they can't do that their only recovery avenue is to cancel one or more trips.
PRR & NYC operated multiple sections of the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century Limited because there was available equipment to do it - there was available equipment to originate the train On Time every day, no matter what 'adventures' the normal inbound train experienced that would prevent that set of equipment from being turned to protect the origination.
PennsyBoomerTake a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient.
When amtrak cancels a train, it gets posted publically, and railfans put it on blast.
When a freight carrier annulls a train for whatever reason, nobody knows; nobody cares.
Kind of apples and oranges.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann PennsyBoomer Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient. When amtrak cancels a train, it gets posted publically, and railfans put it on blast. When a freight carrier annulls a train for whatever reason, nobody knows; nobody cares. Kind of apples and oranges.
PennsyBoomer Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient.
The movement of carload freight and passengers are as different as night and day.
Passengers show up at a schedeuled time expecting to board their particular train.
Shippers tender their shipment to the carrier and only cares for the consignee to get the shipment in the proper time frame. How the carrier's move the shipment between orign and destination is the carrier's responsibility - the carrier's MAY become subject to penalties based upon the contract between the shipper and the carrier. Since the carriers are no longer transporting livestock there are no longer requirments that the 'shipment' be fed, watered and rested within specific time frames.
zugmann Equipment is one thing. I doubt Amtrak's crew base allows much flexibility either. After the serious derailment at Frankford Jct. some years ago on Amtrak, I believe the RR was shut down for a few days, whereas the privately run PRR had traffic moving in a few hours after a similar circumstance. Of course state and fed regulations may impede opening things up vs. decades ago. Just because Amtrak posts cancellations (snow predicted, etc.) doesn't foster service. The point was that a gov't sponsored or subsidized agency does not assure much of anything beyond a burden upon taxpayers with diminishing returns. PennsyBoomer Take a look at how long it takes Amtrak to recover from anything and how adept they have become at canceling trains. Seems to make the freight side of things look pretty efficient. When amtrak cancels a train, it gets posted publically, and railfans put it on blast. When a freight carrier annulls a train for whatever reason, nobody knows; nobody cares. Kind of apples and oranges.
Equipment is one thing. I doubt Amtrak's crew base allows much flexibility either. After the serious derailment at Frankford Jct. some years ago on Amtrak, I believe the RR was shut down for a few days, whereas the privately run PRR had traffic moving in a few hours after a similar circumstance. Of course state and fed regulations may impede opening things up vs. decades ago. Just because Amtrak posts cancellations (snow predicted, etc.) doesn't foster service.
The point was that a gov't sponsored or subsidized agency does not assure much of anything beyond a burden upon taxpayers with diminishing returns.
PennsyBoomerThe point was that a gov't sponsored or subsidized agency does not assure much of anything beyond a burden upon taxpayers with diminishing returns.
*looks around*
PRR still dead. Guess it wasn't much better?
tree68 As I recall, the initial reports were that the train had experienced a break-in-two about 55 cars back, with the train kind of draped over a summit. The initial train was in the vicinity of 150 cars, but that's not what ran away. Only those 55 cars took off. The two lead engines were reportedly unable to push those 55 cars back up the hill to recouple. In fact, the weight of the train was sufficient to cause it to run away down the hill. A HBD reported the speed as 118 MPH shortly before the train left the rails. The GPS report of almost 140 MPH doesn't seem out of order.
That's my understanding, too. I haven't seen anything to say otherwise. There hasn't been too much put out about the incident. Usually when something like this happens they issue some kind of safety alert. The alerts describe what happened and rules involved with a disclaimer that it wasn't to imply that rules were broken.
I must say I didn't listen too much to the interview. I'm skeptical of the "Real News Network" and once I heard Railroad Workers United I turned it off. I want no part of that organization.
Jeff
BaltACD Amtrak has enough equipment to meet their daily schedule requirements - no more; therefore they are not in a position to 'cobble together' a proper set of equipment and operate the next scheduled departure of a train or service On Time.
Barely even that much. Witness dropping the lounges from the Capitol Limited because there's just not enough Superliner lounges any more.
EuclidIn general, he is also very critical of PSR, ultra-long trains, and U.P. management for cutting the labor force.
I think most of us are in agreement on that... And not just on UP...
jeffhergertI'm skeptical of the "Real News Network" and once I heard Railroad Workers United I turned it off. I want no part of that organization. Jeff
What's the deal with the Railroad Workers United?
charlie hebdoWhat's the deal with the Railroad Workers United?
Dedication to welding all the rail unions and trades into one, strong, bargaining unit 'to defeat Wall Street and the rail industry lobby'.
Result: everything is propaganda seen through one lens. Not that there is anything wrong with such advocacy -- only that if you want facts or a fair analysis, you have to back-translate and then compare sources.
Overmod charlie hebdo What's the deal with the Railroad Workers United? A fine perfectiojn of 'where you stand is where you sit'. Dedication to welding all the rail unions and trades into one, strong, bargaining unit 'to defeat Wall Street and the rail industry lobby'. Result: everything is propaganda seen through one lens. Not that there is anything wrong with such advocacy -- only that if you want facts or a fair analysis, you have to back-translate and then compare sources.
charlie hebdo What's the deal with the Railroad Workers United?
A fine perfectiojn of 'where you stand is where you sit'.
While they do have some points that I can agree with, I have a problem with their militancy on how to achieve some things. I also have problems with some of their positions on some items.
I actually think one united union could be beneficial, however for me, "they ain't it."
Getting back to the train. The real issue may not be the size of that train, but that it needed more power, especially dynamic braking power. They have to add power to run over BNSF trackage later in the journey. Reading some anecdotes from people who work that territory, using "just enough" power leaves little room for error or unusual circumstances.
We have manifests that can be long and heavy with a 1x1x1 configuration. It's happened on our short steep grades were a train has come apart, but the single head engine can't shove the head portion uphill.
They really should have a second engine on the headend. Not necessarily for power, but dynamic braking on some of our grades, even in "flat" eastern Nebraska and western Iowa. The less times you have to use air, the better off you are on some of these huge trains. Something the Energy Management Systems' evidently aren't programmed for.
jeffhergert Overmod charlie hebdo What's the deal with the Railroad Workers United? A fine perfectiojn of 'where you stand is where you sit'. Dedication to welding all the rail unions and trades into one, strong, bargaining unit 'to defeat Wall Street and the rail industry lobby'. Result: everything is propaganda seen through one lens. Not that there is anything wrong with such advocacy -- only that if you want facts or a fair analysis, you have to back-translate and then compare sources. While they do have some points that I can agree with, I have a problem with their militancy on how to achieve some things. I also have problems with some of their positions on some items. I actually think one united union could be beneficial, however for me, "they ain't it." Getting back to the train. The real issue may not be the size of that train, but that it needed more power, especially dynamic braking power. They have to add power to run over BNSF trackage later in the journey. Reading some anecdotes from people who work that territory, using "just enough" power leaves little room for error or unusual circumstances. We have manifests that can be long and heavy with a 1x1x1 configuration. It's happened on our short steep grades were a train has come apart, but the single head engine can't shove the head portion uphill. They really should have a second engine on the headend. Not necessarily for power, but dynamic braking on some of our grades, even in "flat" eastern Nebraska and western Iowa. The less times you have to use air, the better off you are on some of these huge trains. Something the Energy Management Systems' evidently aren't programmed for. Jeff
The true skills of the Engineer are in braking and train handling to get trains SAFELY down the grades on their territories.
I wonder if Railroad Workers United is aware of the fact that the Railway Labor Act mandates union representation along craft lines.
CSSHEGEWISCH I wonder if Railroad Workers United is aware of the fact that the Railway Labor Act mandates union representation along craft lines.
Now isn't that interesting? endmrw0418231101
Cotton Belt MP104 CSSHEGEWISCH I wonder if Railroad Workers United is aware of the fact that the Railway Labor Act mandates union representation along craft lines. Now isn't that interesting? endmrw0418231101
CSSHEGEWISCH I wonder if Railroad Workers United is aware of the fact that the Railway Labor Act mandates union representation along craft lines. Now isn't that interesting? endmrw0418231101
jeffhergertReading some anecdotes from people who work that territory, using "just enough" power leaves little room for error or unusual circumstances.
Are there any regulatory considerations for this sort of thing, or is it entirely a "you run the railroad, so off you go" situation?
It immediately made me think of times that there are Federal regulations that do mandate operational requirements based on the operation's particulars. Namely, the ETOPS regs for aviation.
An overview of the RLA says it "contemplates" representation by craft or class of employee. I do not believe it mandates it. The RLA was the first to give legality to workers to organize.
Having one union with different departments within the organization representing the various crafts or classes would probably meet the "contemplation" mentioned previously.
Today, the craft lines between trainmen and enginemen have blurred somewhat. The path to engineer now, most of the time on class ones, begins with being a conductor first. Engineers don't have to belong to the engineer's union and conductors don't have to belong to the conductor's union. (That's where the working contracts are held by the respective unions. Some unionized short lines/regionals may have one union hold both contracts. MRL comes to mind, the engineer's held the contract for engine and trainmen.)
Euclid From the interview with U.P. engineer, Paul Lindsay, he makes the following points about the Nevada runaway ore train wreck: In the interview, he makes the point loud and clear that the train was way too heavy for the dynamic braking, and the dynamic braking was way too little for the train weight. It was that combination that wrecked the train. He says it is an undisputed fact that the longer trains have more mechanical problems that vary from blocking the railroad to causing derailments. There is no scale facility for the origination of this train, so they always overload the cars until the springs are fully compressed. The load was estimated to be at least 22,000 tons. On this line, there were very few curves to hold the train back. They also had mechanical problems with the air that delayed them for about 6 hours, during which the train kept losing its air. That problem began again as they were going over the crest of the grade. The second locomotive in consist registered 138 mph for last GPS reading, so it is assumed that it derailed in the 138-150 mph range while traversing a 60 mph curve. After the train began running away, it ran 20 miles before it derailed on that curve. The train had two engines on front, one in middle, and two at rear. He says it should have had 2-3 on front, 5 in middle, and 2 on rear; which would have been typical practice for a train such as that one in that territory.
I would imagine that the loading facility knew how much was going into each car. It might not be exact like weighing each individual car, but unless the shipper has a scale, cars don't get weighed like they used to.
Most trains don't have enough dynamics to use them exclusively. While the use of air brakes has been discouraged, and that's changed somewhat, they are still there to use. Dynamics is usually first to control speed, but the second best is dynamics with air brakes.
I do agree that more locomotives would've been better. I've said the longer the train, the more likely it could have a problem. Along with weight, it can cause stresses that can lead to problems. I don't necessarily agree with the way it's written, either a if a direct quote or if Euclid pharaphrased it.
I also don't really consider a 154 car by itself long. Our coal trains are up to 150 cars long, 20000 tons. That it needed more power, I will agree with.
PS. I am somewhat confused on Euclid citing the Real News Network and this particular interview. Either my perception on Euclid's political leaning is off, or there's another agenda at work. As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows.
Since this is something I have a bit of experience with, I seriously doubt the cars were overloaded. Overloads have the potential to cause track damage, and in my experience the railroads take this very seriously and go after shippers who overload cars if they are caught.
Even if the mine doesn't have an in-track scale the loadout will contain weigh bins, so the operator knows exactly how much is going into each car before dumping it in. The mine here instructed operators to assume the cars already contained two tons of 'carryback' (product stuck to the interior of the car) to avoid overloads.
The cars or product will also be weighed at the unloading facility. We had an incident at another mine where a single coal car was accidentally overloaded by about 10 tons (a bunch of magnetite got into the cleaned coal) and it wasn't caught until the train was weighed in Prince Rupert. CN was furious, and the mine ended up deliberately underloading their trains for some time after until everyone was satisfied that their plant and weighing system was working properly again.
In my experience overloads or unbalanced loads are normally caught and corrected before the train leaves the mine. If they can't be quickly fixed the car will be set out.
I agree that 154 cars/20,000 tons is not a particularly long or heavy train by current standards.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
RWU supports public ownership of railroads. Falls against politics of some.
Some of thier proposals were being spread late last year during the labor/contract ordeal. A lot of it by the socialist/anti-labor types on reddit. And it included a lot of misinformation from the latter groups that had zero clue how the railway labor act (and let's be honest - railroads in general) worked, as well.
I don't know how much was RWU's doing, and how much was just general reddit nonsense, but probably didn't help their credibility.
jeffhergertPS. I am somewhat confused on Euclid citing the Real News Network and this particular interview. Either my perception on Euclid's political leaning is off, or there's another agenda at work. As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows.
I chose to post the material from that site because it is the only detailed information I have seen regarding that derailment. He does blame the wreck on management, but what is unusual about that?
Wish the NTSB would look at this wreck - I mean, they're spending time looking at that alabama wreck involving the geeps with non-alignment controlled couplers.
zugmann charlie hebdo What's the deal with the Railroad Workers United? RWU supports public ownership of railroads. Falls against politics of some. Some of thier proposals were being spread late last year during the labor/contract ordeal. A lot of it by the socialist/anti-labor types on reddit. And it included a lot of misinformation from the latter groups that had zero clue how the railway labor act (and let's be honest - railroads in general) worked, as well. I don't know how much was RWU's doing, and how much was just general reddit nonsense, but probably didn't help their credibility.
One of their steering committee members works on my seniority district out of another terminal. Reading their newsletter, there seems to be a few laying around everynow and then, the RWU was spreading some misinformation about how things worked. I know their committee member was when he was in my home terminal yard office waiting for a ride.
I'm not saying it was intentional misinformation, just lack of how things actually work.
They are definitely very left of center.
Euclid jeffhergert PS. I am somewhat confused on Euclid citing the Real News Network and this particular interview. Either my perception on Euclid's political leaning is off, or there's another agenda at work. As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows. I chose to post the material from that site because it is the only detailed information I have seen regarding that derailment. He does blame the wreck on management, but what is unusual about that?
jeffhergert PS. I am somewhat confused on Euclid citing the Real News Network and this particular interview. Either my perception on Euclid's political leaning is off, or there's another agenda at work. As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows.
Left of center? Socialist? Nationalization? Why should that be a no no if it provides solutions to the problems with infrastructure? We need less ideology on social issues, more pragmatism.
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