I'd been ignoring this as a "yeah, bad things happen to people far away" kind of a topic, when I saw that the stationmaster was arrested for negligent homicide.
What?
What did a stationmaster have to do with rail operation, I asked. I supposed he could have been a station agent with all the train order stuff.
Further reading:
"The two trains had been running towards each other on the same track 'for many kilometres' before the crash, government spokesman Giannis Oikonomou said."
"Yiannis Ditsas, head of the Greek railway workers union, told Skai television that automatic signalling at the spot of the crash had not been working."
Uh. This is 2023. Those were fast mainline trains. ABS signaling? What, the bulbs burned out so we go as fast as we want? Was someone's 5 year old brother running this train?
I do wonder what a stationmaster was supposed to do, such that this event didn't happen. Maybe stand on the tracks and wave his arms overhead.
Ed
Major failures on many levels of their system of train control.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
7j43kWhat, the bulbs burned out so we go as fast as we want?
Not to play on stereotypes, but there's a definite north to south gradient in Europe that goes from "Follow the Book, even if the Book is wrong" to "eh, we'll be fine."
I'm on an international forum and there was a lot of outcry from Europeans about the East Palestine wreck with lots of "we're better than that, it wouldn't happen here in modern Europe" type comments. They've been really quiet the last couple of days.
Does anyone factually know the method of operations on the line that this collision happened?
BaltACD Does anyone factually know the method of operations on the line that this collision happened?
I wonder if they were using a Communications Based Train Control system. It's been espoused by some in Railway Age, mainly those trying to sell CBTC systems, that it's the way to go for PTC/train control systems.
One of it's greatest features, according to it's supporters, is that you don't need track circuits for it to function. It can be overlaid on nonsignaled trackage or once in place, existing track circuits could be discontinued.
After all, the only people who want wayside signals and track circuits is the signal department, so say the CBTC supporters.
If such a system was to lose track of who is where, would it just give clear signals?
Jeff
It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position.
diningcarIt is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position.
Stationmaster is low hanging fruit and does not explain the Method of Operation on the track segment.
diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position.
That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position.
diningcar
Any rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse.
It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working.
That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so?
It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union.
A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning.
All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault".
My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it.
tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location.
As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4
the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters.
7j43kAny rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed
When you have NO IDEA of what the Operating Rules were that applied to each of the involved parties you have NO BASIS to make any accusatory statements.
ORNHOO tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location. As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4 the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters.
Without having an understanding of the Operating and Signal Rules in effect as well as a understanding of the Greek language - we have NO REAL IDEA of what we are seeing and what is supposed to be happening.
Passing 3 sets of signals, that to my sight, only displayed RED indications leaves ME with serious questions about the Signal Rule.
The vegitation in the center ditch and within the cateary pole line is unique.
BaltACD 7j43k Any rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed When you have NO IDEA of what the Operating Rules were that applied to each of the involved parties you have NO BASIS to make any accusatory statements.
7j43k Any rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed
Either safe operating rules were violated, or operating rules were not designed to be safe.
So it seems to me.
From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction."
This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
diningcarFrom Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident.
Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame.
diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem.
The poor guy said he forgot.
BaltACD diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision. As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident.
Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer.
For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy.
Apparently the police have that information, as they made an arrest. Further arrests should be expected momentarily. I wonder who it will be. Perhaps a "safety supervisor", as diningcar seems to be hinting at.
7j43k BaltACD diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision. As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident. Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer. For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy. Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame. Apparently the police have that information, as they made an arrest. Further arrests should be expected momentarily. I wonder who it will be. Perhaps a "safety supervisor", as diningcar seems to be hinting at. Ed
Personally - I think the Greek Police would probably arrest 'a ham sandwich' to be able to say the 'solved' the case.
It is very easy to make a scapegoat of someone so far down on the Org Chart that they barely have a employed ID number. The REAL responsible party is much higher up in the Org Chart, or maybe even a 'Activist Investor', as I understand there is private/public conflict taking place about the Greek rail system.
With us not being Greek, in another news cycle this incident will be off the 'Front Page' and will become lost in history.
Pretty much, I think.
But I note that the Union leadership says they kept sending letters to someone pointing out the lack of safety.
But do not appear to have urged a worker work-slowdown or a strike to get action.
NOW they have a one-day strike. Maybe they should have had a one-day strike earlier to get action on their multiple letters.
"Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer.
For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy."
Few reporters have enough knowledge of railroad operations to ask any meaningful questions.
7j43kInteresting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot.
If that's the case he wasn't the first.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/
Flintlock76 7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot. If that's the case he wasn't the first. https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/
7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot.
I read that. I can't make sense out of it. It looks like two trains were on one of a pair of double tracks. Quite possibly, that track was ABS signaled in only one direction. If so, then one train would have seen a yellow and a red signal as the other train approached. THAT other train, going against traffic and signals, would have no signal information.
But, I believe, sending trains against the signal direction is taken VERY seriously. So whoever decided to send the "blind" train down that track should have been VERY sure it was safe.
And. Apparently that didn't happen.
Anyway, that's how I interpret the story.
RAILROAD: Erie
LOCATION: Sloatsburg, N. Y.
KIND OF ACCIDENT: Head-end collision
TRAINS INVOLVED: Passenger Passenger
TRAIN NUMBERS: 50 53
LOCOMOTIVE NUMBERS:D-E unit 859 D-E unit 1402
CONSISTS: 4 cars 5 cars
SPEEDS: 15-20 m.p.h. 20 m.p.h.
OPERATION: Timetable, train orders, and automatic block-signal system
TRACK Double; 1 degree 40' curve; 0.47 percent ascending grade westward
WEATHER: Partly cloudy
TIME: 5:47 a.m.
CASUALTIES: 5 killed; 37 injured
CAUSE: Failure to deliver a right-of-track order
BaltACD Flintlock76 7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot. If that's the case he wasn't the first. https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/ RAILROAD: Erie LOCATION: Sloatsburg, N. Y. KIND OF ACCIDENT: Head-end collision TRAINS INVOLVED: Passenger Passenger TRAIN NUMBERS: 50 53 LOCOMOTIVE NUMBERS:D-E unit 859 D-E unit 1402 CONSISTS: 4 cars 5 cars SPEEDS: 15-20 m.p.h. 20 m.p.h. OPERATION: Timetable, train orders, and automatic block-signal system TRACK Double; 1 degree 40' curve; 0.47 percent ascending grade westward WEATHER: Partly cloudy TIME: 5:47 a.m. CASUALTIES: 5 killed; 37 injured CAUSE: Failure to deliver a right-of-track order
Thanks.
Who would have received that order, and what would they have done if they had received it?
BaltACD ORNHOO tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location. As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4 the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters. Without having an understanding of the Operating and Signal Rules in effect as well as a understanding of the Greek language - we have NO REAL IDEA of what we are seeing and what is supposed to be happening. Passing 3 sets of signals, that to my sight, only displayed RED indications leaves ME with serious questions about the Signal Rule. The vegitation in the center ditch and within the cateary pole line is unique.
Reading the comments, at least the ones in english, one points out that some signals are marked indicating they aren't working/out of service. I would guess if they are marked that they aren't working, it's going to be a long term outage.
Obviously they don't care if they turn or put a hood over the signal head.
This mornjng I read that the train driver was told to ignore the red signal by the Greek ewuivalent of a dispatcher. That was the cause of a fatal collision on a branch line in Bavaria a few years ago.
For those interested here's the official report of the Erie Rockland County NY wreck in 1958.
https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/accident/usa/icc/3818.pdf
Flintlock76 For those interested here's the official report of the Erie Rockland County NY wreck in 1958. https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/accident/usa/icc/3818.pdf
Thanks much for posting this!
I did a quick read. Now I have to actually READ it.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.