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C.A.R.B. vs DIESEL ?

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  • Member since
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C.A.R.B. vs DIESEL ?
Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, January 6, 2023 6:49 AM

Off Topic  Maybe, Maybe not?    Admittedly, This is vehicle related; but have we not experienced from time to time, how CARB has not reared its head in discussions about problems with various diesel locomotives? Not to mention how California operations have implemented 'new' conforming 'types' of  power to show how concerned they were about diesel locomotive emissions?    Here is a C&P from an article concerning 'nonconforming' diesel trucks and automobiles operating in California.

FTA:"...The final rule in a set of regulations adopted 15 years ago takes effect this week, banning some 70,000 big rigs from California roads.   A set of clean air regulations implemented by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in 2008, and later signed into law as Senate Bill 1, states that any diesel vehicles weighing over 14,000 pounds and built before 2010 are banned from operating on California roads as of Jan. 1, 2023. 

"Diesel exhaust is responsible for 70% of the cancer risk from airborne toxics," CARB states on its site. "Therefore, by January 1, 2023, nearly all trucks and buses will be required to have 2010 or newer model year engines to reduce particulate matter (PM) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx)emissions.."

Seems their focus is now aimed at the 'automotive side' of operations(operators?).  How long before the railroads, and their 'power' are in C.A.R.B.'s sights ?

Hope, for a discussion, here.

The quote was from an on-line pub(?) SF GATE  see  Linked [paywalled(?)] @ https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fpolitics%2Farticle%2Fcalifornia-ban-on-70000-vehicles-17694178.php

"California's ban on around 70,000 vehicles takes effect this week"Jan. 4, 2023Updated: Jan. 4, 2023 2:38 p.m.

 

 

 


 

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 6, 2023 10:34 AM

Think of it as democracy in action.

It will be interesting to see who attempts to overturn this law as unconstitutional restraint of interstate commerce.  It obviously ignores actual pollution levels or whether operators of older trucks might cost-effectively meet CARB emission standards with older engines.

My personal opinion is that 'people deserve the democracy they elect' and, if California wants extra shipping cost or truck-line embargoes, they better not start trying to trot out the old common-carrier obligation line... truckers could simply standardize fleets on pre-2010 engines and parts and point out they are legally barred from running into California.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 6, 2023 12:46 PM
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, January 6, 2023 12:52 PM

Overmod
My personal opinion is that 'people deserve the democracy they elect'

You, me, and H.L. Mencken.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 7, 2023 10:42 AM

Flintlock76
 
Overmod
My personal opinion is that 'people deserve the democracy they elect'

You, me, and H.L. Mencken.

I turned the original quote, as I heard it (supposedly from Lord Acton, regarding the Nazi accession in 1933, as 'people elect the democracy they deserve') around to suit this situation.  But Mencken's quote on this topic has considerably more bite, and ought to be mentioned here:

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Saturday, January 7, 2023 11:42 AM
 

samfp1943

Off Topic  Maybe, Maybe not?    Admittedly, This is vehicle related; but have we not experienced from time to time, how CARB has not reared its head in discussions about problems with various diesel locomotives? Not to mention how California operations have implemented 'new' conforming 'types' of  power to show how concerned they were about diesel locomotive emissions?    Here is a C&P from an article concerning 'nonconforming' diesel trucks and automobiles operating in California.

FTA:"...The final rule in a set of regulations adopted 15 years ago takes effect this week, banning some 70,000 big rigs from California roads.   A set of clean air regulations implemented by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in 2008, and later signed into law as Senate Bill 1, states that any diesel vehicles weighing over 14,000 pounds and built before 2010 are banned from operating on California roads as of Jan. 1, 2023. 

"Diesel exhaust is responsible for 70% of the cancer risk from airborne toxics," CARB states on its site. "Therefore, by January 1, 2023, nearly all trucks and buses will be required to have 2010 or newer model year engines to reduce particulate matter (PM) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx)emissions.."

Seems their focus is now aimed at the 'automotive side' of operations(operators?).  How long before the railroads, and their 'power' are in C.A.R.B.'s sights ?

Hope, for a discussion, here.

The quote was from an on-line pub(?) SF GATE  see  Linked [paywalled(?)] @ https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fpolitics%2Farticle%2Fcalifornia-ban-on-70000-vehicles-17694178.php

"California's ban on around 70,000 vehicles takes effect this week"Jan. 4, 2023Updated: Jan. 4, 2023 2:38 p.m.

 

 

California can price itself out of the market..... However don't come begging the Feds for subsidy to keep them afloat.... Along these lines Tier V for DEL's is coming soon.. Thanks to input from California. Not sure how we are letting one state determine national emission policy...

 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 7, 2023 12:12 PM

SD60MAC9500
Along these lines Tier V for DEL's is coming soon..

I expect this to make SCR/DEF 'mandatory'.  Expect new-locomotive construction to drop dramatically as older 'grandfathered' units are pulled and rebuilt.  I of course welcome SCR because it allows compression ratio and effective boost to be maximized independent of NOx emissions, which will make the diesel engines both more efficient and fuel-conserving.

The other shoe in California is likely to be regulation of nanoparticulates (the PM below 2.5 micrometers).  In this they'd actually be justified on public-safety grounds, in my opinion.  Unfortunately I expect them to think they'll solve this with DPFs that have to be periodically replaced or regenerated, and filters that could trap even 2.5 particles reliably would be almost too large to fit on a truck even at current exhaust mass-flow rates.  Whether this proves to be a stalking horse for the coming electric-truck fiasco will remain to be seen.

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Saturday, January 7, 2023 3:22 PM

I wonder how the state of Calif plans to regulate nano-particles from wildfires? Along those lines, there hasn't been a lot of discussion as to the other sources of nanoparticles, e.g. direct injection gasoline engines, tire dust, cooking, etc...

With recent developments in gast turbines and batteries, maybe the low PM2.5 solution is a hybrid CNG turbine and battery. The goal is to have the gas turbine run at full throttle or shut down, using the battery for power during shutdown. The battery size would be an economic trade-off between the cost of the battery and the cost of cycling the gas turbine.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 7, 2023 3:32 PM

I suspect the solution for GDI engines will be some combination of increased CR/VCR and restriction on speed changes under load or high developed rpm.  The problem is incomplete combustion in highly nucleated carbureted fuel when combustion time or available oxygen at the nucleate site is not available.  An apparent issue with diesel exhaust is that the nanoparticles have dangerous biological potential, similar in some ways to asbestos; I don't know offhand if fine smoke from cooking poses the same danger.  If you have studies of the composition of tire dust, particularly from tires with ceramic particles to increase tread life, let me know.

Small ceramic gas turbines as range extenders have considerable promise (I'm not violating a NDA by discussing them).  The turbine requires a turning gear when not actively under power, and the compressor would be both spooled up and regeneratively braked electrically, a bit like a large EDF; where it gets interesting is if the compressor can be driven both off the turbine and an electric motor, so that the turbine is better at load-following. 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 7, 2023 5:33 PM

It seems that people are abandoning California in droves.  Perhaps the problem will be self-correcting?

LarryWhistling
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