Back in the 1960s Central and the Pennsylvania were the two biggest roads in Indiana. It looks like both had over 1200 route miles in the state, featuring matching lines to Chicago and through Indianapolis to St. Louis.
Some 60 years later, Central's trackage has not changed noticeably. Most of it is still in place, and much of it is well used by CSX and Norfolk Southern.
The Pennsylvania's trackage is a different story. Several lines have been removed, and what is left is pretty much CFW&E and a few shortlines hauling mostly local traffic.
Why were Central's routes superior, and Pennsy's routes superfluous?
Part of the reason is answered by looking to the east. Through Ohio, the NYC goes through Cleveland and Toledo, both major cities. The Pennsy goes through Upper Sandusky and Bucyrus. If you only have enough traffic for one route, you pick the one with the most online business. That's what Conrail did. The PRR had a good route up to Cleveland from the Canton area to funnel traffic up to the Water Level Route.
Someone can correct me on this. Concerning Chicago. The Pennsy definitely had somewhat of a mainline advantage across Indiana. It didn't have an Otis hill to deal with for EBD traffic, bypassed busy points such as; Pine Jct., Chesterton, South Bend, and Elkhart. Throw in the route had much less curvature than the old LSMS. The Pennsy was definitely the speedway across the Hoosier. In addition the Panhandle Route was hands down probabaly the best way between Columbus-Chicago.
However adding to what Backshop mentioned. The western half of the Water Level Route had greater traffic generation than the western half of the Pennsy did. Also consider the hump yard at Elkhart. These were the most likely reasons the Pennsy was rejected as the main. Once fairly good traffic generating points of Lima and Ft. Wayne declined at a much faster pace than the lakeshore cities.
In recent times the CFE has hosted run through NS freights to take pressure off the WLR. CSX did have trackage rights, but I don't know if that's the case anymore..
P.S. For those who don't know. The NS main swtiches from NYC RoW to Pennsy at Whiting, Indiana for the jaunt to NS 47th Street IM Ramp and CUS. While the old NYC RoW currently host a ComEd transmission path and NS 63rd St(Park Manor) IM Ramp.
Hi Dale! I don't recall exactly, but didn't the NYC build into the area first, getting the best routes like the water level route, etc.? Wasn't NYC built closer to the great lakes where there were already towns and thus some traffic?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Penn Central inherited track that was in pretty poor shape. PRR, at least in the west, had deferred maintenance much earlier than NYC and PRR's plant was already in poor shape. PC invested in the track that was in better condition where their were duplicate lines and let the other go to make the best use of their budgets. The Big4 side of PC seems to have had better yards and was a little more entrenched. Get away from Chicago and there still plenty of PRR still in service.
Look at the USRA Preliminary (PSP) and Final (FSP) writeups as far as what was kept and what was spun off or abandoned. The formation of Conrail out of this mess has plenty of headscratchers. Some of the surviving routes benefitted from line sales in adjoining states.
Around Chicago, CR upgraded the PRR line with new 136 CWR and then walked away from it in 1979. It's still out there rusting away in the weeds.The Gary Airport bypass has finally put some of that PRR to use in the Whiting to Tolleston Area. (CR and Indiana DOT bungled the abandonment of some of that track so badly that the loose ends in the abandonment of some lines SE of Whiting may never get sorted out) Other parts had CWR unloaded and then buried in the ditches so that the operating managers riding on business cars couldn't see it and ask questions. (really dumb, cut then we're talking PC/CR upper operating management) Horror stories like this are plentiful in Indiana.
Duplicate
It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.
Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?
nanaimo73 Back in the 1960s Central and the Pennsylvania were the two biggest roads in Indiana. It looks like both had over 1200 route miles in the state, featuring matching lines to Chicago and through Indianapolis to St. Louis. Some 60 years later, Central's trackage has not changed noticeably. Most of it is still in place, and much of it is well used by CSX and Norfolk Southern. The Pennsylvania's trackage is a different story. Several lines have been removed, and what is left is pretty much CFW&E and a few shortlines hauling mostly local traffic. Why were Central's routes superior, and Penny's routes superfluous?
Why were Central's routes superior, and Penny's routes superfluous?
Since[Mike McD] Wanswheel has passed...
There has een a dearth of really good, researched items, reported around this Forum...
MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. In the trail of submissions on this subject, in addition to this one, there are a couple that could be commented on extensively. Although just a lower level Conrail dispatching transportation manager at the time (and only a observer of the higher-ups management decisions and not privy to the reasons behind them), I think I can provide background from what I observed at the time. I have been in charge of dispatching offices in one form or another on the EL to Chicago, the Ft. Wayne Line from Wood to Bucyrus/Colsan and the Lake Shore from Berea to the east end of Elkhart. In 1979, I had to travel to Columbus, Ohio to be trained on the upcoming new Conrail rulebook. They had gathered every transportation supervisor that could be spared in addition to the regular rules examiners (Regional Managers and division Supervisors of Operating Rules on Conrail) in order to do a crash effort to get all the transportation, MW, and signal people trained on the new book in a short time. On the way there, I followed the part of the Panhandle coming into Columbus from the east and observed numerous production gangs at work on the line. There were a lot of gangs out there. A friend of mine had a career for a couple of years in the late 70's early 1980 as an operator at temporary block stations on the Panhandle west of Columbus to Bradford while a massive project to install CWR and TCS on that portion of the railroad went on and there was a need to have long portions of single track around the work. From these observations, it seemed to me that Conrail had long term plans for the Panhandle - maybe not to Chicago but at least to Bradford for the Pittsburgh to Indianapolis/St. Louis and southwest traffic to use this route. I don't think that higher-up's idea was to spend all this time and money fixing it up only to quickly downgrade and abandon a lot of the route. However, that is what happened. The only thing I know for sure is that Stanley Crane arrived on the property in early 1981 and took a whirlwind business train trip over Conrail. Not doing anything especially important one day, I had to go pick up my boss, the assistant superintendent, off of this train as it was traveling over the Ft. Wayne line eastward to Conway somewhere east of Alliance. Maybe it was Salem, Ohio - I don't remember exactly where. Coming back to Youngstown, my boss outlined to me what Crane's immediate plans were for the Panhandle. Most of the Pittsburgh to Avon trains were to be taken off of the Panhandle and would now use the Ft. Wayne Line to Crestline and then the former NYC's Big 4 from Crestline to Buckeye and Indianapolis and Avon. Also the Chicago bound trains on the Ft. Wayne Line would be diverted to the C&P at Alliance and use that route to Cleveland and thence on the NYC's water level route. I don't think directing the Ft. Wayne Line traffic to Cleveland had anything to do with the Panhandle being downgraded and abandoned. What did it was moving the Panhandle traffic over to the combination Ft. Wayne/Big Four route. Also traffic out of Buckeye Yard (Columbus), instead of taking the Panhandle to Avon, it used the T&OC Western Branch from Columbus to Ridgeway, Ohio also getting on the Big Four at Ridgeway. Voila! and the Panhandle was quickly dried up. From reading some of of the books that have come out since then, I'd have to guess that the plans for Conrail at the initial time of the USRA was - let's get rid of all of the really woe-be-gone branch lines and some of the parallel routes. What we have left will be fixed up - like the Panhandle - and Conrail will be profitable. What Mr. Crane saw was that industry in the Rust Belt had declined even further since the USRA's plan had been created and the only way for Conrail to be profitable was to concentrate traffic on a few routes - the Big X as it became to be known. So the Panhandle route became one of Mr. Crane's targets to eliminate as a through route - within 2 years after Conrail had done all the major rehab work on it. I saw the same thing on the Ft. Wayne Line before and after Mr. Crane's arrival. It appeared to me that previous to Mr. Crane, Conrail management had big plans for it based on the rehab and TCS work I saw and then it all changed after his arrival. Several other sections on the railroad were completely rehabed and only were used for about a year. One spot on the former EL got a complete tie & surface job and never saw a train as far as I know.That would be another long subject perhaps commented on in a later submission. Mr. Crane quickly changed a lot of thinking about what Conrail would look like
Railfans overvalue the PRR routes in what became PC, CR, CSX & NS.
The value in that freight franchise was dominance in DC-NY carload traffic and the Allegheny crossing. This allowed them to polish some turds west of Pittsburgh to get to Chicago and St Louis.
Entrenched ex-PRR management were not able to internalize this, and vexed PC and CR strategic decision making until Mr. Crane showed up.
Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?
Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad.
SD60MAC9500 Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point? Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad.
Decatur & Eastern Illinois (DEIR) operates the Terre Haute-Paris line these days. CSX sold off the former NYC and B&O cluster of lines between Decatur and Terre Haute after implementing PSR in 2017.
C&EI and MP had trackage rights on the Big Four route west of Pana. Conrail sold the route to MP after they moved all of their traffic over to the rebuilt PRR line between Terre Haute and St. Louis.
Pana to Effingham to St L (PRR) is the current St. Louis Line. NYC Pana-StL went to C&EI/UPRR - It was built largely as a giant 1904 line change to speed-up NYC's roundabout route to St. Louis (via Madison) obstensibly to compete with the others for Worlds Fair traffic going to/from St Louis. Uncle Pete bought the line from the CR estate. Trying to remember if trackage rights with UPRR/C&EI existed beforehand.
C&EI had trackage rights over NYC into St. Louis since around the early 1900's. Not sure of the exact date.
According to a C&EI history dissertation that I have, the C&EI trackage rights on the Big Four go back to 1891. That is when the C&EI arrived in Shelbyville, IL. The original connection was built there. Later, after the Frisco bought control of the C&EI, the cutoff between Findlay and Pana was built in 1904-1905. Along with the Woodland Cutoff between Villa Grove and Woodland, the Frisco's intent was to shorten the C&EI's routes between Chicago, St. Louis, and Thebes to make them more competitive.
ns145 SD60MAC9500 Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point? Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad. Decatur & Eastern Illinois (DEIR) operates the Terre Haute-Paris line these days. CSX sold off the former NYC and B&O cluster of lines between Decatur and Terre Haute after implementing PSR in 2017. C&EI and MP had trackage rights on the Big Four route west of Pana. Conrail sold the route to MP after they moved all of their traffic over to the rebuilt PRR line between Terre Haute and St. Louis.
Thanks for the correction forgot about that transaction to WATCO's D&EI.
I recall reading in one of the Beebe books about C&EI's Zipper (I think), a pocket named train between Chi and StL. He wrote about the train having to wait at Pana before entering Central's route (trackage) to StL until NYC's posh Limited passed through. The Zipper then followed.
I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
MidlandMike Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point? I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
MidlandMikebut the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
The fork in the road was in Indiana.
Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR.
ndbprr Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR.
Backshop ndbprr Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.
ndbprr
Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.
It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC.
Gramp It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC.
mudchicken:Minor correction. Pana to Effingham is not the current CSX line to St. Louis. In fact Pana and Effingham were not on the PRR line. Pana to Mattoon was NYC and PRR had a more direct line thru Effingham to St. Louis thru Collinsville. I grew up not too far from Effingham and Mattoon and watched PC trains on both ex NYC and PRR lines.
ed
Very fascinating thread. Welcome back Dale!
Coincidentally I began reading this thread this afternoon and then made a quick family related trip to Logansport, In (from Valparaiso, In) and back, then finished reading.
Midland Mike - great review on what Stanley Crane decided. I recall in the early 80's, here in Valparaiso, In on the ex PRR the trains suddenly disappeared. I worked at a trucking terminal and my desk was about 30 yards from the Conrail (ex PRR) double track mainline. I nearly always turned to watch the action...until it ended.
Today my travel to Logansport took me on US 30, adjacent to the ex PRR line (now Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern). The line is in decent shape and sees CFw&E plus NS (trackage rights) trains.
The ex Panhandle from Chicago thru North Judson to Logansport is long gone. I did catch a couple of trains in the late 70s on that line...down to 10mph if that. I caught one train at Kouts Tower (crossed the ex EL). Today there is the Keystone Bike path from Kewanee, In to Logansport...nice bike trail.
Logansport was a major railroad town with PRR. I have a PRR freight schedule book (mid 1950s) and considerable traffic to the East Coast moved via Logansport. At that point the line split, heading south to Indy and Louisville, with another line southeast to Richmond where it joined the PRR Indy - Columbus line. At Richmond a line headed south to Cincinnati.
Branch lines radiated from Logansport to South Bend, Auburn, Terre Haute, and Effner (to the TP&W - Santa Fe). Logansport was literally a hub and spoke operation. The Freight Schedule book is a facinating look at how PRR operated.
I did make a day trip to Logansport in October 1979 with a fellow railfan who had huge interest in PRR and we took a number of photos around the still standing facilities. I wasnt took excited as there were not many trains...wish I could have a muligan on that day.
Growing up in Southern Illinois near Effingham, I spent time in the 70s there watching the PC/Conrail and IC action. Also in Mattoon as my aunt lived there. PC and Conrail in late 70s would run westbounds on teh ex NYC thru Mattoon and ran both WB and EB thru Effingham.
The PRR in Indiana was downgraded over the NYC...no doubt about it. Elkhart Yard and Avon had quite a bit to do with that, but NYC lines were better and had revenue generating customers. Not so much on the PRR.
Ed
MP173--Since you seem to be quite familiar with Logansport, I have a question. I passed through once and saw a locomotive shop. Was that diesel era or did it seem to be from the steam era? It seemed to be similar to the one in Canton, OH, which I believe was diesel.
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