Okay.
Some cars go very little distance, carrying low-tarif cargo. OTOH, some cars go very long distances and carry priority loads. Then there's everything in between.
So this is an almost impossible question to answer, particularly since freight rates are often (generally?) not public.
If you knew all the data, and could crunch the numbers, what would be the cost to ship a mythical "average" load an average distance?
Next question. Am I right to assume that the "average" manifest freight contains 50% loads and 50% empties?
I ask these questions because when I look at infrastructure, equipment and labor, it seems impossible that RRs are profitable. But clearly they are, mostly.
So if I saw the "average train" go by, how much money would the shippers have paid, cumulatively? Regarding unit trains, let's assume that the loaded/empty round trip is one train.
When I see the "average" freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More?
It's a slow day. Have at it.
Still in training.
Lithonia OperatorOkay. Some cars go very little distance, carrying low-tarif cargo. OTOH, some cars go very long distances and carry priority loads. Then there's everything in between. So this is an almost impossible question to answer, particularly since freight rates are often (generally?) not public. If you knew all the data, and could crunch the numbers, what would be the cost to ship a mythical "average" load an average distance? Next question. Am I right to assume that the "average" manifest freight contains 50% loads and 50% empties? I ask these questions because when I look at infrastructure, equipment and labor, it seems impossible that RRs are profitable. But clearly they are, mostly. So if I saw the "average train" go by, how much money would the shippers have paid, cumulatively? Regarding unit trains, let's assume that the loaded/empty round trip is one train. When I see the "average" freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More? It's a slow day. Have at it.
I cannot speak to what TODAY's freight rates and accessorial charges are.
When I was working at Operators job at Newton Falls, OH in the late 1960's part of the job was to hand up Revenue Waybills for cars that were being picked up by trains from the GM Assembly Plant at Lordstown, OH. These cars were the so called Vert-a-Pak auto carriers used to transport the Chevrolet Vega. I can be mistaken, but I think 22 Vegas could be loaded into each Vert-a-Pak. Looking on the waybills for the freight charges, I recall the amount being in the $4800-$5000 dollar per car for cars being shipped to West Coast destinations.
Later in my career, I was involved in the preparation of 'Cargo Statements' - the freight billing of loads of coal dumped on ocean going vessels at the B&O's Curtis Bay Coal Pier. This was in the late 1970's early 1980's period. The freight charges being assessed varied between about $7.50 and $12.00 per ton depend upon the mine of origin and in some cases the route to get to Curtis Bay (B&O was getting about 25000 cars a year from ConRail). It would take between 50K and 60K tons to load a vessel at Curtis Bay, after sailing from Curtis Bay vessels would frequently sail down the Chesapeake Bay to the C&O Coal Pier at Newport News, VA and depending up the vessel load another 100K or 200K tons before going overseas.
Today's Post Staggers rates in many cases are based upon contracts betwen the carriers and the customers, the contracts may specify things about different rates depending up different cumulative tonnages the customer ships. There can also be contract provisions pertaining to car cycle for the shipments, especially when shippers privately owned cars are involved. The list of potential contract provisions go on and on - limited only by the imagination of the lawyers involved in the contract negotiations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Okay. Some cars go very little distance, carrying low-tarif cargo. OTOH, some cars go very long distances and carry priority loads. Then there's everything in between. So this is an almost impossible question to answer, particularly since freight rates are often (generally?) not public. If you knew all the data, and could crunch the numbers, what would be the cost to ship a mythical "average" load an average distance? Next question. Am I right to assume that the "average" manifest freight contains 50% loads and 50% empties? I ask these questions because when I look at infrastructure, equipment and labor, it seems impossible that RRs are profitable. But clearly they are, mostly. So if I saw the "average train" go by, how much money would the shippers have paid, cumulatively? Regarding unit trains, let's assume that the loaded/empty round trip is one train. When I see the "average" freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More? It's a slow day. Have at it. I cannot speak to what TODAY's freight rates and accessorial charges are. When I was working at Operators job at Newton Falls, OH in the late 1960's part of the job was to hand up Revenue Waybills for cars that were being picked up by trains from the GM Assembly Plant at Lordstown, OH. These cars were the so called Vert-a-Pak auto carriers used to transport the Chevrolet Vega. I can be mistaken, but I think 22 Vegas could be loaded into each Vert-a-Pak. Looking on the waybills for the freight charges, I recall the amount being in the $4800-$5000 dollar per car for cars being shipped to West Coast destinations. Later in my career, I was involved in the preparation of 'Cargo Statements' - the freight billing of loads of coal dumped on ocean going vessels at the B&O's Curtis Bay Coal Pier. This was in the late 1970's early 1980's period. The freight charges being assessed varied between about $7.50 and $12.00 per ton depend upon the mine of origin and in some cases the route to get to Curtis Bay (B&O was getting about 25000 cars a year from ConRail). It would take between 50K and 60K tons to load a vessel at Curtis Bay, after sailing from Curtis Bay vessels would frequently sail down the Chesapeake Bay to the C&O Coal Pier at Newport News, VA and depending up the vessel load another 100K or 200K tons before going overseas. Today's Post Staggers rates in many cases are based upon contracts betwen the carriers and the customers, the contracts may specify things about different rates depending up different cumulative tonnages the customer ships. There can also be contract provisions pertaining to car cycle for the shipments, especially when shippers privately owned cars are involved. The list of potential contract provisions go on and on - limited only by the imagination of the lawyers involved in the contract negotiations.
Lithonia Operator Okay. Some cars go very little distance, carrying low-tarif cargo. OTOH, some cars go very long distances and carry priority loads. Then there's everything in between. So this is an almost impossible question to answer, particularly since freight rates are often (generally?) not public. If you knew all the data, and could crunch the numbers, what would be the cost to ship a mythical "average" load an average distance? Next question. Am I right to assume that the "average" manifest freight contains 50% loads and 50% empties? I ask these questions because when I look at infrastructure, equipment and labor, it seems impossible that RRs are profitable. But clearly they are, mostly. So if I saw the "average train" go by, how much money would the shippers have paid, cumulatively? Regarding unit trains, let's assume that the loaded/empty round trip is one train. When I see the "average" freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More? It's a slow day. Have at it.
Thanks, Balt. I really appreciate it. That gives me an idea.
You do mean $5K per railcar load, not per Vega, right?
Lithonia Operator Thanks, Balt. I really appreciate it. That gives me an idea. You do mean $5K per railcar load, not per Vega, right?
I think the MSRP for a Vega was less than $3K, which I believe included transportation costs.
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Thanks, Balt. I really appreciate it. That gives me an idea. You do mean $5K per railcar load, not per Vega, right? I think the MSRP for a Vega was less than $3K, which I believe included transportation costs.
If that's per railcar, it works out to around $230 per Vega...Which sounds reasonable.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Speaking from an intermodal perspective. Intermodal is contract based. When the Staggers Act was passed. One of the caveats was the exemption of intermodal from regulated rates. Some carload traffic moves under contract as well. Most still moves under tariff rates.
There's also spot rates in intermodal. Which by definition means price right now. Intermodal has spot pricing, but it requires an advanced booking. Intermodal spot rates are typically fairly static.
In comparison when it comes to trucks they do not require this. Which makes it far more nimble than intermodal spot pricing. However truckload spot prices are much more dynamic, and can change within a day or so.
I can say this to an extant, but don't quote me as my numbers may be off. For example.. Those BNSF stack trains you see moving on the Southern Transcon between CHI-LA? Are probably grossing BNSF anywhere between $250K-$350K/train..
My dad (who passed in 1998) used to work for the MOPAC and then became a traffic manager, was licensed to practice before the ICC and often file tariffs. There were many factors involved in building and succesfully constructing a tariff. Such as Weight, Volume, fragility, (ie, how could it be damaged), value, Competitive rates, how much time for transit, how many cars are you shipping, etc. You can see similar factors when you go to the post office. Back when he worked, all freight traveled under tariff. Today, not much. Coal, minerals, were very damage resistant but boxes of glass jars were riskier. Thus risk of damage affeected the rate.
Also back then, a rate between point A and point B would be valid via any railroad that served those points. When he filed a rate, if it was approved his competitors would match it.
Back in the 40's, he wrote some artlcles for Trains under the pen name of Forsythe. one about how for the same fare, one could go from Chicago to Los Angles direct (ATSF) or via Salt Lake City, Seattle, Houston etc. for the same fare. Competition was the friend of the traveler.
I would love to see rates today.
Sort of an interesting side-note(?)....The video referenced by the Threads O.P. on the concurrently runing Thread in regards to the "...BNSF's employes's Wives Story... ".
Has a video referenced; that says [IIRC] that in 2021 the BNSF proported to have earned $6 Billion dollars(?) as a railroad... Not to shabby, if accurate, for ole Warren B's railroad... An stil, apparently, Union Contract Free ?
samfp1943Sort of an interesting side-note(?)....The video referenced by the Threads O.P. on the concurrently runing Thread in regards to the "...BNSF's employes's Wives Story... ". Has a video referenced; that says [IIRC] that in 2021 the BNSF proported to have earned $6 Billion dollars(?) as a railroad... Not to shabby, if accurate, for ole Warren B's railroad... An stil, apparently, Union Contract Free ?
Warren has not abrograted any Union contracts on BNSF. Union contracts with BNSF and all the other participating carriers expired 3 years ago. Pay rates and work rules that were in effect with those contracts when they expired are being continued by the carriers. ie. pay rates are still at a pre-Covid level, pre-inflation level.
True to form the Carriers representatives in the negotiations continue to make bad faith proposals just like they have for the past three years. Warren's and the other carriers Freight Rates have not stayed at the same level they were when the union contract expired. Ch Ch Ch Ching!
Lithonia Operator freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More? It's a slow day. Have at it.
freight car go by, is that trip worth 1K, 3K, 10K? More?
Thanks, everyone. Very interesting. JayBee, that fact book is great!
[quote user="BaltACD"]
samfp1943
Sort of an interesting side-note(?)....The video referenced by the Threads O.P. on the concurrently runing Thread in regards to the "...BNSF's employes's Wives Story... ". Has a video referenced; that says [IIRC] that in 2021 the BNSF proported to have earned $6 Billion dollars(?) as a railroad... Not to shabby, if accurate, for ole Warren B's railroad... An stil, apparently, Union Contract Free ?
[/quote] Thanks, for the note about Contract abrogation, and the the information as to pay rates...
After re-watching the "Wives Protest Video" it seems that their main grip is in BNSF's establishing their "new" "Hi-Viz" set of attendance, and its attendant 'point rules'. I have no idea as to what all those rules may entail onan employee, but they seem to have certainly 'steamed' up the family side of the employment calculation (?)....
Familial Partners ( wives, Gf's, significant others(?), and so on)....are an important part of the employment calculations; " recall the old saw: "....Haqppy wife, Happy life!..."
Seems the ' brain trust down at BNSF HQ has really 'stepped off in it', where their employment interests are concerned, IMHO..
While specific contracts between carrier and shipper may be publicly unavailable, some railroads still maintain some tariffs. The larger ones seem to want you to contact them to get a rate.
Iowa Interstate Tariff Rates - Iowa Interstate Railroad, LLC (iaisrr.com)
Cedar Rapids and Iowa City Ry Travero - Published Rates
Watco shortlines Tariffs - Watco
Many of them also only pertain to moves only on the individual properties. Moves beyond to another railroad will be more than the amount shown.
Jeff
The CP Fact Book is a great resource...thanks JayBee for posting the link.
Each quarter the publically traded rails will publish their quarterly report. Tucked inside those reports are a similar format with the factual information for different commodities with carloads, revenue, average revenue, etc.
One can determine the revenue and growth of each commodity along with the revenue per carload.
For the most part, the revenue per carload has been rising (dramatically) over the past 10 years, except for coal, where the rails have dropped rates to meet demand on a shrinking market.
I find the intermodal rates of interest. In the east the unit rate is around $700 - $800. Thus a 250 container Chicago to New Jersey train would average about $175-$200,000.
I find it interesting to see the premium trains (primarily UPS) which are moving with 40-60 trailers and container. Obviously the $700-$800 per unit rate doesnt apply, or if so, there is probably a minimum to run that train.
For example last night's CSX I1 from New Jersey to Chicago had 56 trailers/containers, of which 36 were UPS branded. This is the train which runs only 1x per week to Chicago in which the UPS trailers are then trucked to SoCal for guaranteed Friday (4 day delivery). this train used to continue on via Santa Fe but was dropped due to service disruptions to other trains (had to maintain a fast schedule for the UPS loads which screwed up other trains).
Would love to know what UPS pays for this train plus the corresponding eastward movement of similar size which departs Chicago around 230am Thursday with arrival scheduled in North Bergen around 0001 on Friday morning.
ed
MP173The CP Fact Book is a great resource...thanks JayBee for posting the link. Each quarter the publically traded rails will publish their quarterly report. Tucked inside those reports are a similar format with the factual information for different commodities with carloads, revenue, average revenue, etc. One can determine the revenue and growth of each commodity along with the revenue per carload. For the most part, the revenue per carload has been rising (dramatically) over the past 10 years, except for coal, where the rails have dropped rates to meet demand on a shrinking market. I find the intermodal rates of interest. In the east the unit rate is around $700 - $800. Thus a 250 container Chicago to New Jersey train would average about $175-$200,000. I find it interesting to see the premium trains (primarily UPS) which are moving with 40-60 trailers and container. Obviously the $700-$800 per unit rate doesnt apply, or if so, there is probably a minimum to run that train. For example last night's CSX I1 from New Jersey to Chicago had 56 trailers/containers, of which 36 were UPS branded. This is the train which runs only 1x per week to Chicago in which the UPS trailers are then trucked to SoCal for guaranteed Friday (4 day delivery). this train used to continue on via Santa Fe but was dropped due to service disruptions to other trains (had to maintain a fast schedule for the UPS loads which screwed up other trains). Would love to know what UPS pays for this train plus the corresponding eastward movement of similar size which departs Chicago around 230am Thursday with arrival scheduled in North Bergen around 0001 on Friday morning. ed
I have no real insight into the contracts between UPS and railroads. The only thing I know is the railroads will jump through any number of hoops in order to prevent 'sort failures'. Every box UPS ships via railroads (and likely all other forms of carriage) has a UPS scheduled 'sort time' at the next UPS destination for the box. Railroad schedules work within this framework.
I do know when CSX had issues in the UPS service lanes it was not uncommon for UPS boxes to be unloaded from railcars and driven OTR by truckers to prevent getting a 'sort failure' on the UPS scorecard.
UPS must be paying a pretty steep rate for railroads to take such extraordinary measures to keep the customer satisfied.
BaltACDI have no real insight into the contracts between UPS and railroads.
Watching Deshler, one rarely sees the "UPS" train pass through town at anything but track speed.
tree68 BaltACD I have no real insight into the contracts between UPS and railroads. Watching Deshler, one rarely sees the "UPS" train pass through town at anything but track speed.
BaltACD I have no real insight into the contracts between UPS and railroads.
A hallmark of the effort CSX puts into handling UPS business. Even in the PSR age.
I monitor these CSX priority trains almost on a daily basis on their passage thru Deshler and Berea. The foundation might be crumbling on their boxcar business, but the intermodals, particularly the "mail trains" run tight.
MP173Would love to know what UPS pays for this train plus the corresponding eastward movement of similar size which departs Chicago around 230am Thursday with arrival scheduled in North Bergen around 0001 on Friday morning.
That is "Moving It."
IF they could/would do that more than once per day with longer trains they'd own almost every pound of surface freight between Chicago and New York.
MP173 I monitor these CSX priority trains almost on a daily basis on their passage thru Deshler and Berea. The foundation might be crumbling on their boxcar business, but the intermodals, particularly the "mail trains" run tight. ed
The kicker here, CSX has the highest average IM on time arrival out of all the C1's right now. Last time I checked CSXT was averaging 95%.
MP173This is the train which runs only 1x per week to Chicago in which the UPS trailers are then trucked to SoCal for guaranteed Friday (4 day delivery). this train used to continue on via Santa Fe but was dropped due to service disruptions to other trains (had to maintain a fast schedule for the UPS loads which screwed up other trains).
And that is the discouraging part. The longest part of the haul has to be trucked.
charlie hebdo MP173 This is the train which runs only 1x per week to Chicago in which the UPS trailers are then trucked to SoCal for guaranteed Friday (4 day delivery). this train used to continue on via Santa Fe but was dropped due to service disruptions to other trains (had to maintain a fast schedule for the UPS loads which screwed up other trains). And that is the discouraging part. The longest part of the haul has to be trucked.
MP173 This is the train which runs only 1x per week to Chicago in which the UPS trailers are then trucked to SoCal for guaranteed Friday (4 day delivery). this train used to continue on via Santa Fe but was dropped due to service disruptions to other trains (had to maintain a fast schedule for the UPS loads which screwed up other trains).
Is BNSF absorbing the OTR drayage costs for the service failure of their On The Rail portion of the haul?
Balt:Perhaps I was unclear. The I1/I2 UPS trains only run between Chicago and New Jersey. The balance of the movements is by truck...and has been for years. BNSF is not having service disruptions on this movement, although it sounds as if they are having plenting of "issues".
If anyone is interested, CSX just released their 2q22 results. Commodity volumes, revenue, and revenue per unit were disclosed. Here is the revenue per "unit" based on groups along with the percentage increase YoY.
Chemicals $4036 (per carload) 11% increase
Ag 3433 9%
Mineral 1889 8
Auto 3153 12
Forest 3392 9
Metals 3130 9
Fertilizer 2185 11
Intermodal 793 17%
Coal 3657 58%
No doubt the fuel surcharges had quite an impact on these revenue/unit increases.
What I do not understand is the 58% increase in carload revenue for coal. Coal loads were down 10% from 183,000 to 173,000. For the 90 day period CSX handled an average of 1922 coal loads per day.
Overall revenue was up 28% with net income flat. Go figure.
MP173Balt: Perhaps I was unclear. The I1/I2 UPS trains only run between Chicago and New Jersey. The balance of the movements is by truck...and has been for years. BNSF is not having service disruptions on this movement, although it sounds as if they are having plenting of "issues". If anyone is interested, CSX just released their 2q22 results. Commodity volumes, revenue, and revenue per unit were disclosed. Here is the revenue per "unit" based on groups along with the percentage increase YoY. Chemicals $4036 (per carload) 11% increase Ag 3433 9% Mineral 1889 8 Auto 3153 12 Forest 3392 9 Metals 3130 9 Fertilizer 2185 11 Intermodal 793 17% Coal 3657 58% No doubt the fuel surcharges had quite an impact on these revenue/unit increases. What I do not understand is the 58% increase in carload revenue for coal. Coal loads were down 10% from 183,000 to 173,000. For the 90 day period CSX handled an average of 1922 coal loads per day. Overall revenue was up 28% with net income flat. Go figure. ed
Perhaps I was unclear. The I1/I2 UPS trains only run between Chicago and New Jersey. The balance of the movements is by truck...and has been for years. BNSF is not having service disruptions on this movement, although it sounds as if they are having plenting of "issues".
Unclear you were - I was presuming all rail movement CSX Chicago BNSF.
CSX has been crowing for years about their 'pricing power' ie. they can raise prices and the customers have little alternative. It has been several reporting periods wherein CSX has reported decreased volumes and increased revenues.
CSX is still handling coal out of WVA and Southern Indiana. Also there is a daily move of coke from Demmler, Pa to US Steel in Gary moving on B156/B157....seems like a daily move anyway.
Ed
MP173Also there is a daily move of coke from Demmler, Pa to US Steel in Gary moving on B156/B157....seems like a daily move anyway.
Ahhh, the "Coke Express." It does seem to be a daily move through Deshler.
Of course, there are the empties going back for "deposit," too.
It's the real thing...
MP173Overall revenue was up 28% with net income flat. Go figure.
OK, I will.
Their costs went up too. So, they had more revenue but also more costs. This inflation thing sucks.
They have offered to pay employees more than the contracted rate.
greyhounds MP173 Would love to know what UPS pays for this train plus the corresponding eastward movement of similar size which departs Chicago around 230am Thursday with arrival scheduled in North Bergen around 0001 on Friday morning. That is "Moving It." IF they could/would do that more than once per day with longer trains they'd own almost every pound of surface freight between Chicago and New York.
MP173 Would love to know what UPS pays for this train plus the corresponding eastward movement of similar size which departs Chicago around 230am Thursday with arrival scheduled in North Bergen around 0001 on Friday morning.
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