Coal prices on US spot market are soaring from European demand. That demand brings up the question of how much additional coal production can increase especially short term. I would expect that producers would be reluctant to open more mines due to the possiility that demand could weakken quickly if the Ukraine situation changes?
However what is the ability of increasing production from existing USA mining efforts? Maybe som persons will kow one or more answers to the following.
1. The appalachian reagion especially WVa.
2 Illinoins and Indianna basin
3. Powder Rver production. Although long way from Atlantic portss. Did I read that several mines there were to shut down and could they quickly re start or just not shut down?
4. Lesser coal fields such as in the Colorado area?
5. Then there is the problem of PSR with the inability of class 1s to keep employees. Also has CSX and NS cut some of their track capacities?
6. Can New Orleans increase barge to ship handling?
7. How much excess capacity is there now for the east coast coal handling faciities? BALT?
Hereis a link.
Coal prices soar to record highs on strong demand from a Europe in crisis (msn.com)
blue streak 1Coal prices on US spot market are soaring from European demand. That demand brings up the question of how much additional coal production can increase especially short term. I would expect that producers would be reluctant to open more mines due to the possiility that demand could weakken quickly if the Ukraine situation changes? However what is the ability of increasing production from existing USA mining efforts? Maybe som persons will kow one or more answers to the following. 1. The appalachian reagion especially WVa. 2 Illinoins and Indianna basin 3. Powder Rver production. Although long way from Atlantic portss. Did I read that several mines there were to shut down and could they quickly re start or just not shut down? 4. Lesser coal fields such as in the Colorado area? 5. Then there is the problem of PSR with the inability of class 1s to keep employees. Also has CSX and NS cut some of their track capacities? 6. Can New Orleans increase barge to ship handling? 7. How much excess capacity is there now for the east coast coal handling faciities? BALT? Hereis a link. Coal prices soar to record highs on strong demand from a Europe in crisis (msn.com)
I don't have any handle on CSX coal capacity in the 21st Century. In the late 70's & early 80's CSX had the fluid capacity at Curtis Bay Coal Pier to dump in the neighborhood of 800 cars per 24 hour day into vessels at the pier. Needless to say dumping time was lost in the changeover between vessels. In the same period of time Newport News Coal Pier was dumping in the neighborhood of 1000 cars per 24 hour period.
Subsequent to that period of time, at Baltimore, Island Creek Coal built a pier operation, adjacent to CBCP, known as Bayside that used a different routine in loading vessels - a routine that did not have rail cars dumping directly into vessels, but dumping to ground storage and the ground storage being loaded to vessels. At some point in time CSX bought the facility from Island Creek and has been operating it. I don't know if CSX is operating both facilities or not.
At Newport News Dominion Coal Associates built as similar ground storage type operation in the same time frame. I don't know how the former C&O coal pier and the Dominion operation work with each other.
Capacity in the Export Coal business relates to how much coal can be loaded on vessels in how little time. As information, vessels would load 50-60 thousand tons at Curtis Bay (39 foot maximum allowed draft - in the 1970-80's time frame - deeper today) and then sail down the Chesapeake Bay to Newport News and top off with another 100K tons or more (NN maximum draft was 55 feet, I think) for their trip across the ocean.
The information I gleaned about the coal pier operations came from working in the Terminal Services Centers that prepared the 'Cargo Statements' (ie. Freight Bill) that was issued to the beneficial owner of the coal being shipped. The statements included Origin mine, weight of contents, transshipper identity and other information that was pertinent to each shipment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have a real clear picture that the current crop of PSR railroads will spend the money to ramp coal transportation back up. I think you're correct that the end of the war in Ukraine promptly abolishes the European demand. And I expect governments will continue to demonize the fuel for nearly all purposes going forward.
World coal prices had skyrocketed well before the war in Ukraine started, I suspect that China's decision to stop buying Australian coal had been largely responsible for this.
Two of Alberta's export mines (Coal Valley and Grande Cache) have reopened in the past 9 months after being shut down for long periods.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
If you've got any bit of an open mind, you might want to read this book about the use of fossil fuels such as coal. Their use really has helped humans and their banishment will hurt us. There is a cost to their use, but there are also great benefits.
https://www.amazon.com/Fossil-Future-Flourishing-Requires-Gas-Not-ebook/dp/B098M3Y7VC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3992HW0JD39I7&keywords=fossil+future+alex+epstein&qid=1657829966&s=books&sprefix=%2Cstripbooks%2C193&sr=1-1
One of the 'things' about coal is that, although many of the 'clean coal' initiatives are very real and effective, the American desire to profit from proprietary 'recipes', dog-in-the-manger license or patent-pooling, and revenue prioritized over 'safety' left most of the world convinced the whole approach was more or less a scam.
The system of SRC that was used in the coal-burning Eldorados was worked out in all the detail needed to scale for production; back in the day the 'break-even' cost of diesel was about $2.30 to make the coal fuel "less expensive" to provide (in remanufacturable but not 'user-refilled-like-toner' cartridges). Zero-carbon or even zero-net-carbon alternative-fuel initiatives, though, run with garlic and crosses held high from any such use of high-carbon fossil sources...
The great current initiative is blue-hydrogen-with-sequestration. The actual cost of sequestration has gone down from the 23% involved in pulverized-coal combustion, as the phase separation of CO2 from H2 occurs at little more than process pressure. Presumably reasonable sequestration and FGR continue to be attractive methods of practical carbon-release minimization... for those who can't get enough rubles for their 'energy fix', or pay the price for the weasels' addiction.
greyhoundsTheir use really has helped humans and their banishment will hurt us.
So did the horse, but I drove a car to the store this morning.
A time will eventually come when it isn't the carbon that people worry about, but finally realize that their anti-nuclear nonsense was a mistake because coal is definitely injecting vastly more radiological material on purpose into the atmosphere than nuclear could potentially inject by accident.
NittanyLionSo did the horse, but I drove a car to the store this morning. A time will eventually come when it isn't the carbon that people worry about, but finally realize that their anti-nuclear nonsense was a mistake because coal is definitely injecting vastly more radiological material on purpose into the atmosphere than nuclear could potentially inject by accident.
Nuclear power could / should be a very usefull power source as we transition from fossil fuels (which are finite, and which add to global climate change) to solar (which is infinite and non-polluting). It's too bad we are so far behind in solar technology, largely because of the political influence the fossil fuel industry has. Anybody remember that in the 1970s you could get a federal tax credit for adding solar panels to your house, and almost all new houses built then had them. That ended when Reagan became president.
As far as export coal increasing, I suppose it depends on what kind of coal they want. In the US, many eastern coal-burning power plants use Powder River coal, because it burns cleaner than Appalachian coal, so helps the power plants meet the emission standards. So if Europe can use the Appalachian coal, it might be something we could send them. Not sure if there's enough capacity in Powder River Basin to meet our needs and to export?
The "green" movement has fossil fuels in its sights - coal, oil, even natural gas.
We're already losing tillable land in this area to solar farms, and there are hundreds of wind turbines.
People have been made afraid of nuclear power, so it's not likely you'll see any more of them built.
There are even people opposed to hydropower.
Yet, at the same time, NYS wants all new construction to use electricity.
Curiously, no one seems to know where all this electricity will magically come from.
The same goes for EV's.
At a recent unveiling of the most current edition of GM's "Volt," a GM executive was apparently unaware that the power being used to charge the car's battery was coming from a coal fired power plant...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
wjstix... As far as export coal increasing, I suppose it depends on what kind of coal they want. In the US, many eastern coal-burning power plants use Powder River coal, because it burns cleaner than Appalachian coal, so helps the power plants meet the emission standards. So if Europe can use the Appalachian coal, it might be something we could send them. Not sure if there's enough capacity in Powder River Basin to meet our needs and to export?
While all coal may be black. Not all coal is the same. Coal has any number of different metallurgical properties - properties that can affect how an where a particular mine's coal may be used. In the heyday of the B&O's Curtis Bay Coal Pier its 'speciality' was blending the coal being laded into vessels. Each transhipper (agent for loading the vessels) had a number of different 'grades' from the various mines they were associated with - each different grade had its own metallurgical signature. The receiver of the vessels contents would want a specific mix of these different metalurgies to end up with a overall unique signature for their specific uses (boilers, cokeing etc.)
As a example Transshipper A had grades 'Apple, Banana, Cherry and a number of other 'fruit' names to their grades. A 'dumping rotation' would be designed for what the final grade going into the hold would be ie. 5-Apple, 2-Banana, 1-Cherry, 7-Orange and repeat the sequence. Ten tracks fed the coal dumper, each track would be supplied with a separte grade of coal. The Barney Operators, at the direction of the Dumper Foreman were instructed what cars to shove to the dumper and in what order.
Upon arrival in Curtis Bay, Coal Surveyors would sample the coal from the arriving trains to ascertain that the proper coal grade was in the train.
To my knowledge, I don't believe CSX is doing coal blending anymore.
tree68 We're already losing tillable land in this area to solar farms,
We're already losing tillable land in this area to solar farms,
That's why I think the emphasis should be on rooftop installations as opposed to "solar farms".
A big mistake with push for EV's was not pushing for chargings stations where cars would be parked during late morning and early afternoon, thus making use of the peak of the solar power production. With "Vehicle to grid" technology, the batteries on the EV's could be utilized to supply power in the evening. Note that the peak demand time for California (likely similar in most other states) is approximately 7PM, just as solar generation is ending for the day.
Getting back on the thread's topic, unless there is a Great Depression like downturn worldwide, the coal boom should last at least another five years.
Re: "That's why I think the emphasis should be on rooftop installations as opposed to "solar farms"."
Not on my roof. I've seen too many solar panel system fires.
- Ed Kyle
tree68 The "green" movement has fossil fuels in its sights - coal, oil, even natural gas. We're already losing tillable land in this area to solar farms, and there are hundreds of wind turbines. People have been made afraid of nuclear power, so it's not likely you'll see any more of them built. There are even people opposed to hydropower. Yet, at the same time, NYS wants all new construction to use electricity. Curiously, no one seems to know where all this electricity will magically come from. The same goes for EV's. At a recent unveiling of the most current edition of GM's "Volt," a GM executive was apparently unaware that the power being used to charge the car's battery was coming from a coal fired power plant...
I liken this to the changeover from incandescent lightbulbs but now on a gigantic scale. Know-it-alls banned incandescents, pushed compact fluorescents. Up until that point, most fluorescents were used commercially, sold and serviced by firms that handled disposal properly. With compacts, all bets were off. Lots of mercury to the landfills, dumps, and wherever. Later, LEDs were perfected, a much better technology. Now the farm is being bet on EVs and such, banning fossil fuels. Same idiocy. People who want to rule the world.At least UP is smart enough to test biofuel in four locomotives.
wjstixsolar (which is infinite and non-polluting)
But not infinitely collectable or infinitely applicable.
A 100 percent efficient solar array would have to be half the size of Pennsylvania just to meet current national demand. Even at that level of efficiency, the combination of solar irradiance and geometry puts you at a hard limit of 12 kWh/m2 in the best of locations (granted, these are napkin calculations. The maximum solar irradiance is in the area of 1000 watts per meter and so on). Nuclear is vastly more compact to put out vastly more power, without any hard physical caps on the maximum output for a given facility. You could readily put a 32 GWh four reactor nuclear power plant on the same area that would struggle to reach 3 GWh.
Erik_MagA big mistake with push for EV's was not pushing for chargings stations where cars would be parked during late morning and early afternoon,
One of our local amateur radio repeaters is completely off the grid. Power comes from several solar panels and a small wind turbine, all feeding a battery bank. Usually that's enough. Except in the dead of winter, when the days are short and the wind oftimes does not blow. So the owner has to go to the site and run a generator for several hours to replenish the batteries.
Otherwise, you've got a good point. The same is true for "destinations." You may have a great restaurant, but if you're limited to people who can make it there and back on a charge, well...
Erik_Mag tree68 We're already losing tillable land in this area to solar farms, That's why I think the emphasis should be on rooftop installations as opposed to "solar farms".
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
tree68One of our local amateur radio repeaters is completely off the grid. Power comes from several solar panels and a small wind turbine, all feeding a battery bank. Usually that's enough. Except in the dead of winter, when the days are short and the wind oftimes does not blow. So the owner has to go to the site and run a generator for several hours to replenish the batteries.
Does snow pile up on the solar panels?
Ed Kyle Re: "That's why I think the emphasis should be on rooftop installations as opposed to "solar farms"." Not on my roof. I've seen too many solar panel system fires. - Ed Kyle
Wrong question! The real question is how much can coal demand increase! If demand is there, production will increase to fulfill the demand.
BaltACD Wrong question! The real question is how much can coal demand increase! If demand is there, production will increase to fulfill the demand.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that coal is being exported to those locations which have not yet been adjusted to other fuels.
EuclidThe real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned.
The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists...
When they discover that there's not enough electricity to charge their EV's, they'll "warm up" to coal...
tree68 Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned. The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists...
Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned.
I don't think there is much of a distinction. Both are part of something larger. And they do work together as you suggest.
Euclid tree68 Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned. The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists... I don't think there is much of a distinction. Both are part of something larger. And they do work together as you suggest.
CSX and NS and their predecessors have been shipping West Virginia overseas for almost two hundred years and despite their best efforts the state still exists.
tree68 Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned. The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists... When they discover that there's not enough electricity to charge their EV's, they'll "warm up" to coal...
Wait. What? Don't those thingys that are in all the walls make the electricity? I just, like, plug whatever, like my TV, like, in to them and then it works. Why would coal have anything to do with electricity?
kgbw49 tree68 Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned. The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists... When they discover that there's not enough electricity to charge their EV's, they'll "warm up" to coal... Wait. What? Don't those thingys that are in all the walls make the electricity? I just, like, plug whatever, like my TV, like, in to them and then it works. Why would coal have anything to do with electricity?
Where is Ready Kilowatt?
BaltACD Euclid tree68 Euclid The real question is whether the regulatory community will allow coal to be mined and burned. The regulators are only reacting to the environmentalists... I don't think there is much of a distinction. Both are part of something larger. And they do work together as you suggest. CSX and NS and their predecessors have been shipping West Virginia overseas for almost two hundred years and despite their best efforts the state still exists.
Seeing the number of scheduled power plant closures in the coming years, in southern Illinois and plants further south belonging to the TVA, I expect the now busy BNSF Beardstown Sub to be a hiking trail by 2050.
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