1) The Union Pacific, last I heard, runs an intermodal train from Los Angeles to Denver via Salt Lake City.
2) The train goes through Las Vegas, NV, but does not carry Los Angeles to Las Vegas loads.
3) Las Vegas has an existing intermodal terminal.
4) The Las Vegas metro area has over one million residents plus all those visitors.
5) The people in Las Vegas need things such as tires, toothpaste, bananas, shoes, orange juice, etc.
6) A lot of these things come out of Los Angeles.
7) The UP doesn’t serve the market.
8) So
9) Let’s add a Vegas block to the rear of the train. Put a smaller DPU locomotive, a GP38-2 would be nice, on a rear end block with the Vegas loads.
10) At the proper point and time, the Vegas block automatically detaches itself, with locomotive, from the train. (i.e., Helper Mate.) It runs itself onto the correct track at the Vegas IM terminal.
11) What could go wrong?
UP serves Las Vegas. All that traffic rides in exisitng manifest service and is block swapped at its Valley(intermodal ramp) Terminal. Which is also UP's Auto Ramp. Their Valley IM ramp is also a part of the UMAX network.
Thanks for the good info, '9500!
I guess it is not well known because as we all know, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas....
greyhounds 10) At the proper point and time, the Vegas block automatically detaches itself, with locomotive, from the train. (i.e., Helper Mate.) It runs itself onto the correct track at the Vegas IM terminal.
The biggest reason is this Las Vegas is a freaking desert for outbound loads. You have to deadhead out of there either into Arizona or California for reloads. There is some freight out of Northern NV for the most part NV itself is a desert of outbound loads of all types. You normally end up deadheading with a reefer to places like Bakersfield or Oxnard to get reloaded or with a flatbed head for the ports or mines to get reloads. There was a copper mine in AZ the old Kenndecot mine that provided a lot of reloads over the years for flatbedders across the nation.
LA to LV is too short of a haul to be practical and profitable for intermodal service and too difficult to compete against rubber tires on the roads between the points.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I don't think any of the smaller engines are DP capable. Only the more "modern" six axle road power.
Jeff
As other posters have stated. Vegas doesn't produce any outbound loads. Despite various attempts over the years, such as Faraday, the entire city's existence largely depends on hospitality.
If gambling wasn't illegal in almost the entire US years ago, Vegas would be about the size of Nipton or 29 Palms, CA. You're roaring down the road at 75 miles an hour, with AC roaring and the radio blaring, you blink, and you miss the entire town.
There are the chemical plants in Henderson which do some shipping.
One chemical of interest being ammoniun perchlorate... A couple of the biggest customers for that are located in Magna and Promontory Utah.
Shadow the Cats owner Las Vegas is a freaking desert for outbound loads. You have to deadhead out of there either into Arizona or California for reloads.
BaltACD LA to LV is too short of a haul to be practical and profitable for intermodal service and too difficult to compete against rubber tires on the roads between the points.
I don't think any of the smaller engines are DP capable. Only the more "modern" six axle road power. [/quote]
Well, there's been no reason to make a GP38-2 DP capable. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. It's a fully depreciated locomotive so, as with the labor costs, the ownership costs of the locomotive are virtually zilch.
There will be maintenance and fuel costs, etc.
[quote user="SD60MAC9500”] This would be difficult to do as the terminal is stub ended. So you'd have to reverse then double over to the lead. A regular switch will do. No need to complicate the movement in the plant. Nor add power to a block that will be isolated for most of the trip. [/quote]
Nope. I don’t think it’s a good plan to need a switch engine and crew on duty and in position for this. Automate as much as possible to save dollars.
JoeBlow If gambling wasn't illegal in almost the entire US years ago, Vegas would be about the size of Nipton or 29 Palms, CA. You're roaring down the road at 75 miles an hour, with AC roaring and the radio blaring, you blink, and you miss the entire town.
I pretty much agree with this. Around here, now, pretty much every bar, restaurant, gas station, grocery store, etc. has slot machines. I can make a sports bet on line. But we have to deal with the current reality. And the large population of the Las Vegas area is the current reality.
greyhoundsNope. I don’t think it’s a good plan to need a switch engine and crew on duty and in position for this. Automate as much as possible to save dollars.
Instead of having a crew that would be easy to get, we are going to have to modernize an old and quickly disappearing locomotive type (is it even feasable? - I've seen the racks of stuff that had to be added to them for PTC) and rely on technology that's still pretty much in fantasy phase.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I dont' see the big picture.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I concur with Zug.
If you have all that potential traffic, just use a standard six-axle (6 or 4-motor) unit with DP for the testing... if doing automation you'll be using six-axle units as test mules anyway; divert one. Heaven knows there are enough of them running around now. Notch-limit the damn thing if you're concerned about fuel burn or whatever.
We can contact Mike Wolf for the code to be added to the DP radio stream for the disengaging coupler operation; he can probably use the money.
Overmod I concur with Zug. If you have all that potential traffic, just use a standard six-axle (6 or 4-motor) unit with DP for the testing... if doing automation you'll be using six-axle units as test mules anyway; divert one. Heaven knows there are enough of them running around now. Notch-limit the damn thing if you're concerned about fuel burn or whatever. We can contact Mike Wolf for the code to be added to the DP radio stream for the disengaging coupler operation; he can probably use the money.
1) Provide power for the Las Vegas block
2) Be able to detach itself and the Vegas block from the train autonomously
3) Spot the loads at the Vegas intermodal terminal autonomously
Shouldn't you be posting all your marketing/operating concepts to professional railroaders and not a fan website? Your current one is a doozy. On the one hand, you want to do it "on the cheap". On the other, you want to use technology that doesn't exist. Which one is it?
greyhoundsI don’t want to have a switch engine and crew waiting around to move the loads from the through train to the terminal. That would be an unnecessary expense.
But having automated engines to spot at an intermodal pad (technology that isn't even on the railroads) is not an unneccessary expense?
I've worked trains where we ran thru a yard and dropped off a rear block, or had a crew slam one on. It doesn't take that long - plus you have to rehang the marker, do your class-3, and I don't think the feds are too willing to let DPUs not be tied onto the brakepipe yet.
I guess all that can be automated. But at that point, why not have the trucks drive themselves from LA to the customers in LV, and not even HAVE an IM yard? Seems like if we're going to automate let's automate the damned thing completely.
Somebody seems to have the theme that humans are an unneccessary expense.
zugmannBut having automated engines to spot at an intermodal pad (technology that isn't even on the railroads) is not an unneccessary expense? I've worked trains where we ran thru a yard and dropped off a rear block, or had a crew slam one on. It doesn't take that long - plus you have to rehang the marker, do your class-3, and I don't think the feds are too willing to let DPUs not be tied onto the brakepipe yet. I guess all that can be automated. But at that point, why not have the trucks drive themselves from LA to the customers in LV, and not even HAVE an IM yard? Seems like if we're going to automate let's automate the damned thing completely.
OK, the technology does exist to do this.
Here's how to seperate the train and drop the Las Vegas block:
https://trademarks.justia.com/784/62/helperlink-78462644.html
Once that's done we use remote control operation (an established technology) to move the Vegas block to the terminal. Only instead of a person running the remote control there is a computer doing it. Nothing really new, just an adaption of existing technology.
https://youtu.be/7NEwrjQtrKo
I know how helperlink works.
Are you aware of how DPU works (Esp. in repsect to a brakepipe, and in regards to loss of telemetry)?
What about the EOT? Class-3 continuity tests? And where do we have automated RCOs setting up themselves and running and spotting up pads?
I'm sure none of these hurdles are insurmountable with enough time, money, and rewritten regulations, but to pretend they don't exist currently is disingenuous at best.
But whatever.
PS. I've seen a robot cutting a lawn, so that puts up about what? 60% there?
For a view of UP's intermodal (Valley) ramp in Las Vegas here you go,
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2723841,-115.0712868,915m/data=!3m1!1e3
[quote user="greyhounds”]
[/quote]
Automation has its place, but not here.. One UP maybe using a contract switcher to service this facility. An RCO could reposition the block with a track mobile, or better yet the train could work the facility as it's already block swapping here.. Sending an automated block on the fly would require extensive tech that probably is not worth the ROIC. Automation requires very high density point 2 point to generate a postive. This does not meet that requirement and would create a negative return as the traffic density is not there..
A local crew can switch this without a negative hit to cost.
Another note if you really want to grow the LA-LV market. COFC won't do it. TOFC will be the best choice..
I had had the impression from the initial posts that this would be operated a bit like a glorified version of the GWR slip-coach idea:
The northbound block would detach from the rear of a proceeding train, slow itself 'autonomously' and then cross over as necessary to enter an intermodal yard, where it would progress, index its consist as needed, and stop. No backing, no filling, no complicated situational awareness -- and most importantly, no re-connecting to a train, no brake tests or other setup, no DP reconfiguration or unusual complex train movement, and no complex RCO-type movements of the consist until it is 'empty' or moved from the intermodal facility after all the loads for LV had been picked and any originating traffic placed.
1) The yard in question only has entrance from the 'northeast', and only one track could even remotely be fitted with a switch for direct access from LA;
2) it doesn't appear to me that either visible track is particularly long, so any reasonable block fitting the traffic projections won't fit without doubling. That would involve running an arrived consist up past the switch into the facility, backing it in RCO until near the tail of one track, then cutting the consist as needed (this being done without releasing air from the front half of the consist, with 'someone' tying down the rear-end cars as positioned. The consist now pulls up past the fouling point, the switch 'throws', and the consist backs into the other track, power and all... techincally I suppose we don't care if the power fouls, as neither block is going to have to move until all the business gets done. That is some complex crap, not incidentally including two shoves, for a simple autonomous rig to negotiate.
3) I don't think I could design a worse facility for modern intermodal container transfer. It appears to be designed around van sideloading, which I understand is now an unpopular technique, but there is little room at the end to get around a tied-down block, and what appears to be a parking lot impeding access to the southmost track, if indeed there are two tracks there for side access. No room to improve swing at the track ends, and I think no improvement room to put them there. No conceivable way to do circus loading and unloading of trailers unless I'm really missing something significant.
How would the OP run this without a dedicated switching and car crew taking over the 'road power' once it arrives "past" the north switch into the facility?
Maybe I'm missing something - but in the linked satellite photo - there's already a switch engine (crew) there spotting up autoracks.
So there is already intermodal traffic and autorack traffic being dropped off at the yard, and there already is a crew to handle it.
zugmann Maybe I'm missing something - but in the linked satellite photo - there's already a switch engine (crew) there spotting up autoracks. So there is already intermodal traffic and autorack traffic being dropped off at the yard, and there already is a crew to handle it.
Sure is. Looks like an older SW type, and it's not a UP switcher. A contract switch serivce like I pretty much thought it would be. That switches both the auto ramp and the IM pad.. So the cost to switch this facility is minimal..
There's also a bunch of other industry right there - so plenty of work for UP crews to do.
OvermodHow would the OP run this without a dedicated switching and car crew taking over the 'road power' once it arrives "past" the north switch into the facility?
Google doesn't show me any images of your robot to set hand brakes. Must not be one. Needs to be invented, just like PTC needed to be invented. What was the price tag for the carriers for PTC? $20B ? $30B ? Just chump change.
BaltACDGoogle doesn't show me any images of your robot to set hand brakes. Must not be one. Needs to be invented, just like PTC needed to be invented. What was the price tag for the carriers for PTC? $20B ? $30B ? Just chump change.
Officially it was priced at $18 Billion by TRAINS, not sure if the cost since has increased.
I just reread the OP. He's theorizing that UP doesn't service LV with intermodal just because one train doesn't stop there. It sounds like it may be a high priority LA-Midwest train. I'm sure there's other trains setting off blocks, though. The work is already being done.
Backshop just reread the OP. He's theorizing that UP doesn't service LV with intermodal just because one train doesn't stop there. It sounds like it may be a high priority LA-Midwest train. I'm sure there's other trains setting off blocks, though. The work is already being done.
No, I said the UP does serve Vegas with intermodal. But they don't do LA-Vegas intermodal. I'm trying to come up with a way for them to do that and you're not helping.
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