Bridge maintenance

[diningcar]

Thanks MC, for separating the real from the many speculations that preceded you at this site. MC and his colleges deal with bridge issues every day.

[mudchicken]

(1) Railroad steel bridges are inspected at least once a year and the Cls. 1's tend to look at them 2x or more.

(2) The FRA criteria always pretty rigid, has gotten tougher in the last 5 years, especially on how they look at existing years.

(3) It's the Cls 3 and the industrials you need to be concerned about. Operating people with no engineering background, empty coffers/ slim margins and generally assuming former class 1 lines without all the documentation (lawyers love to hide the stuff, new railroads frequently fail to require the stuff at hand-over and FRA/STB do not require it or demand it. Your FRA Bridge Plan (everybody is supposed to have one by now) or lack of one may shut you down. ....I'm more concerned about rickety small town or backwards counties than the rail bridges. 

(4) What Cooper's Rating did the bridge start out with? E-What? If you are less than E-63, you may have bought big liability trouble. Traffic on the line?

(5) Reinforced concrete spalling is a concern like ELiner is talking about. Wonder if that Big4 bridge is about to get a visit from Osmose's concrete epoxy folks et al? ($$$$)...Uncle Pete and BNSF both have had issues in Iowa lately. (and some of the old CB&Q and M&StL bridges were funky to start with.

(6) Wonder how long it will be before some PSR financial wunderkind who never gets his shoes dirty and doesn't wear steel toed boots finds himself liable for some incident due to his decisions? (and can't pawn off the blame on M/W being at fault because people aren't there anymore)... FRA is investigating.

(7) Still an awful lot of timber structures out there soldiering on.

[7j43k]

BaltACD

I believe bridges are required to be inspected yearly, and not by the bean counters, but by qualified bridge engineers.  I trust the results of their inspections are properly communicated and formed into necessary action plans.

 

 

Regarding the Memphis I-40 bridge:

 

"The fired inspector had missed the crack in 2016, 2017, 2019 and 2020. Another inspector who had missed the crack in 2018 had never inspected that portion of the bridge before, and the department said he has been “verbally counselled” and will receive additional training.

The department’s report said the agency’s failure to adequately respond to employees concerned with the fired inspector’s job performance “perpetuated a culture where team members did not feel they had the authority or support to question a lead inspector’s procedures or thoroughness.”"

 

Ed

[Electroliner 1935]

Moving from BRIDGES to VIADUCTS, has anyone noticed the deterioration of former NYC concrete viaducts such as the one across the Miami River on the East side of Sidney Ohio. Conctete spalling off and I think I could see some rebar. 

[CMStPnP]

Euclid

It could in theory, but it seems unlikely because deterioration usually damages paint.  So not only does a lack of paint cause deterioration; but the presence of paint can highlight damage, which helps to discover deterioration.    So paint provides two advantages over not painting:   1)   Paint inhibits deterioration, thus lengthening bridge life. 2)   Paint highlights deterioration so it can be found and repaired as soon as possible, thus lengthening bridge life.   It is true that if you don’t inspect, but just rely on paint to provide the cosmetic objective of covering unsightly damage; that will accelerate damage.    The best approach for long bridge life is to keep it painted and inspect diligently for signs of deterioration.

I've watched WisDOT install new railroad bridges all over SE Wisconsin and few of them are painted because the rust patina that forms acts in the same way as paint preventing oxygen and moisture from reaching the steel underneath.     These are 100 year duration bridges as well...........they will never need to be painted.

So not all bridges have to be painted to protect them, some are designed to have the rust patina form and that protects them as would the paint.    Some freeway bridges are painted for cosmetic reasons..........others are not.   Depends on the city and location of the bridge.

Now I cannot speak for areas where salt air is a factor because I have no experience or observation there.     

[Murphy Siding]

tree68

While I concur with the whole accountants thing, one must remember that we're living in a different time.

Years ago, the paint crew could scrape and sandblast a bridge and just let the debris fall into the water (or whatever) below.  If some paint dripped, no big deal.

Nowadays, that's all got to be captured and properly disposed of, especially if there's a possibility of lead.  Thus a simple scrape and paint job gets a lot more complicated, with the associated costs.

 

I was born in Alaska and lived there my first 11 years, moving in 1972. The highway department used to go out and paint the open truss steel bridges each fall with what everybody called red lead paint. Most of those bridges crossed clear mountain streams full of rainbow trout. 

[Euclid]

BaltACD

Paint can cover a lot of bad situations that can cause failure.

 

It could in theory, but it seems unlikely because deterioration usually damages paint.  So not only does a lack of paint cause deterioration; but the presence of paint can highlight damage, which helps to discover deterioration. 

 

So paint provides two advantages over not painting:

 

1)   Paint inhibits deterioration, thus lengthening bridge life.

2)   Paint highlights deterioration so it can be found and repaired as soon as possible, thus lengthening bridge life.

 

It is true that if you don’t inspect, but just rely on paint to provide the cosmetic objective of covering unsightly damage; that will accelerate damage. 

 

The best approach for long bridge life is to keep it painted and inspect diligently for signs of deterioration.

[tree68]

Backshop

One is at 5 Mile Rd and Northville Rd and the other on Hines Dr just east of Wilcox. There may be a couple of others but I'm having cranial vaporlock right now.

Milford has two (now Lake States) - Main Street and Huron Street.

I'll have to check the M59 bridge, too...

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

Paint can cover a lot of bad situations that can cause failure.

 

Then we have bridge inspections that are not compleete.  Thinking of the bridge at Memphis.  What was done?

Maybee each year's inspection needs to be done by someone else?  On my inspecdtion rounds it was very hard to get someone to follow behind me.

[BaltACD]

In comparison with bridge engineering in today's world - railroad bridges engineered and designed 100+ years ago were designed to withstand the pounding augment of steam engines by engineers that did not know the finite strength of the material they were using so whatever they built was, in comparison to today, over designed and much stronger than the same structure if it were to be built today.,

[Convicted One]

SD70Dude

Nowadays they get bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten).  No paint needed.

 

Let's not forget the Atlanta Omni....made with Cor-Ten and still failed due to corrosion.  I believe that movement was it's undoing,  flex from solar cycling allowing just enough disturbance in the patina to allow the corrosion to continue to penetrate.

Not that I think many bridges are built with it, but bridges being dynamic structures that they are, appear to me to be an ill-suited application.

I agree with the assessment that accountants prevail over maintenance  objectives. Why spend all that money keeping the neighborhhood looking nice if you can send it to the stockholders, instead?

[BaltACD]

Paint can cover a lot of bad situations that can cause failure.

[ccltrains]

My thoughts go back to my childhood home in Brooke County WV which has three railroad bridges over the Ohio River (Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh and WV, and Wheeling steel).  All three of these bridges are about 100 years old and have a rust patina.  One highway bridge (Market Street to Steubenville) is over 100 years old and is routinely painted by the state highway department.  Need to limit the bean counters authority.

 

[Backshop]

One is at 5 Mile Rd and Northville Rd and the other on Hines Dr just east of Wilcox. There may be a couple of others but I'm having cranial vaporlock right now.

[tree68]

Backshop

We have several bridges in the Plymouth, MI area still painted "C&O".

Next time I'm in Milford I'll have to check the viaduct...

 

[Backshop]

We have several bridges in the Plymouth, MI area still painted "C&O".

[tree68]

BaltACD

I believe bridges are required to be inspected yearly, and not by the bean counters, but by qualified bridge engineers.  I trust the results of their inspections are properly communicated and formed into necessary action plans.

They are, to the best of my knowledge.  I had control of our track one spring a few years ago and had to give out permission to the bridge inspectors as needed.

Where the bean counters may enter into the maintenance equation might be when the inspectors recommend some maintenance, such as "if we do this the bridge will be good for another X years."  Bah.  "I" don't care if it makes it to next year as long as money shows up in my wallet...

[BaltACD]

I believe bridges are required to be inspected yearly, and not by the bean counters, but by qualified bridge engineers.  I trust the results of their inspections are properly communicated and formed into necessary action plans.

[Erik_Mag]

It makes me wonder if the accountants are figuring that the bridge damage caused by deferred maintenance won't show up until after they've found another job (or got thier bonus). Or just plan on pinning the blame on the bridge team.

[tree68]

While I concur with the whole accountants thing, one must remember that we're living in a different time.

Years ago, the paint crew could scrape and sandblast a bridge and just let the debris fall into the water (or whatever) below.  If some paint dripped, no big deal.

Nowadays, that's all got to be captured and properly disposed of, especially if there's a possibility of lead.  Thus a simple scrape and paint job gets a lot more complicated, with the associated costs.

[Electroliner 1935]

SD70Dude

Nowadays they gehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel t bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten).  No paint needed.

 

Cor-Ten steel came into use for buildings in 1964. It had been used for some railroad cars previously. 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel

Most railroad bridges that you see today were built before 1964 and are indeed RUSTING. And I concur with ccltrains that "Yes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out. "

 

 

 

[SD70Dude]

Nowadays they get bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten).  No paint needed.

[zugmann]

ccltrains

Yes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out. 

Yes. 

[ccltrains]

 Back in the '50s railroads were proud of their physical plant and would repaint at the first sign if rust. Now they seem to like the au natural rust look. Realize the bridge will not fail from a little rust but where is the pride of ownership. Yes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out.