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Worst Herald?

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Posted by NKP guy on Monday, December 13, 2021 6:26 PM

Convicted One
Similar in scope to the way NYC once controlled the Nickel Plate

   I agree and think this explains a number of things about the Nickel Plate.

   The NKP was always rather like Sears' Good or Sears' Better; never Sears' Best.  You could see that in the signalling equipment they bought, the single tracking, the wooden depots that were seldom replaced by anything better, etc.  The herald, doubtless dating from the NKP's Babylonian Captivity by the NYC, reflects that heritage.

   As to the Bluebirds' paint scheme:  The NKP was basically a freight hauler with a couple or three passenger trains.  People and amenities came a distant second to hauling livestock and perishable food from California. For such a prosaic, focused railroad with those great black Berkshire locomotives, the Bluebird paint scheme could be seen as downright whimsical.

   As to their herald, once again, the observation is correct.  Three enigmatic words, even in an attractive script of a font, don't say anything about the road.  You'll notice I didn't suggest the NKP as a road that had an exemplary herald because it didn't.  In fact, the only place one could see that unimaginative logo was on the front of those unimaginative Bluebirds!  Or maybe on a timetable.  If you think about it, the Nickel Plate's logo was quite similar to that of the New York, New Haven & Hartford's, which at least told one where the railroad went.

   One herald I like is that of the Erie Railroad. Simplicity itself, easily identifiable from a distance and not cluttered. The Erie Lackawanna logo was a really inspired riff on that predecessor.

   Likewise, I really like the Pennsylvania's and its obvious pun on the state's motto.  With no words necessary, it may be the very best.  But the New York Central, headquartered in the Heart of the Advertising Industry, never seemed to have a great or memorable herald.  An ordinary one, yes.

   And Balt, while I have to agree the B&O's was just about unmatched, I really like the version with the motto about linking 13 great states with the nation's capital.  What pride!

   

 

 

   

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, December 13, 2021 6:39 PM

1. Is there any real differnece between a logo and a herald? 

2. I always thought CSX should just embrace the Chessie name and bring it back. I mean, most RRers I know refer to it as the chessie anyhow. 

3. I always thought the Amtrak pointless arrow was timeless.  Esp when mixed with a good red/white/blue paint job.  The current gray and sheets logo is just so uninspiring.  Makes their equipment look so...blah.

  

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my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by mersenne6 on Monday, December 13, 2021 6:52 PM

I don't know about worst herald but probably the most influential is the UP shield.  It was the direct inspiration for the U.S. Forest Service Badge.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, December 13, 2021 7:52 PM

I've always thought the "fried egg" herald of the Lehigh & New England Railroad was one of the least imaginative anywhere.

But then, for all intents and purposes they were an "industrial" 'road, flash and panache wasn't their thing to begin with.  Nor did they want it to be.

https://www.american-rails.com/lehigh.html#Logo 

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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, December 13, 2021 7:57 PM

I thought one of the neatest progressions through logo modernization was that shown by the Erie, the Erie Lackawanna, and the Erie Western.  Once you knew their names, it became genius.

Carl

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Posted by ns145 on Monday, December 13, 2021 8:07 PM

NKP guy

 

   One herald I like is that of the Erie Railroad. Simplicity itself, easily identifiable from a distance and not cluttered. The Erie Lackawanna logo was a really inspired riff on that predecessor.

The EL is the one merger-era creation that looked cooler than either of its predecessors.  Combining the Erie's diamond logo with Lackawanna's maroon, grey, and yellow paint scheme was absolute genius.

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Posted by matthewsaggie on Monday, December 13, 2021 8:20 PM

Western Maryland fireball was best, followed by the B&O capitol dome.

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Posted by Gramp on Monday, December 13, 2021 8:42 PM

I would have to vote Panam Railways as the worst. An atrocity. Just wrong. Angel

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, December 13, 2021 9:37 PM

While I am B&O through and through

I did enjoy the short period of the Chessie System

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, December 13, 2021 10:10 PM

While CP's Multimark was a simple classic, and Action Red with candy stripes look awesome, I can only see Pac-Man whenever I look at it.  Maybe that's why CP stopped using it in the 80s?  

CP used a different colour for each division, the airline looked remarkably similar to Southern Pacific's 'Daylight' locomotives.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_747-217B_C-FCRA_CP_TOR_270775_edited-2.jpg

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, December 13, 2021 10:52 PM

It's not really a herald, I guess but I do recall those "State of Maine" red, white and blue boxcars. Didn't they say, "Famous Potatos" on them? I haven't seen one since I was a kid and I like them because they were a change from the usual Tuscan red. 

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Posted by cx500 on Monday, December 13, 2021 11:02 PM

The CN noodle always seems simple and effective, although the old maple leaf in the roundel was very nostalgic and attractive.  They fumbled badly with the "CN North America" map on the side of the hood.  It may have worked in a broadside view but the initial impresssion on seeing an approaching train was of peeling paint. 

John 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, December 13, 2021 11:06 PM

Is it a Canadian thing that the nose of a locomotive must be Red?

Both CN & CP have red noses with their initials (logo) in white.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, December 13, 2021 11:19 PM

CN did it first and has stayed with the same colours since 1960, CP copied us and can't seem to stop changing.....

I remember seeing a pretty long and heated debate on one of the modelling forums over whether the CN colour is red or orange.  It turned out that everyone involved was wrong, the official name for it is "No. 11 red-orange".  

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Posted by ELRobby on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 1:57 AM

I think my nomination for the worst herald, or perhaps the most reprehensible one, wins hands down.  That's the swastika that the Chicago, Attica & Southern emblazoned on the side of their tenders.  Admitedly, they started using this logo before Hitler's rise to power so it wasn't as if they were promoting Nazism when they adopted it as their logo.  It should still win as the worst though.  I have seen a reference that a railroad called the St. Louis, Rocky Mountain & Pacific (a Santa Fe predecessor) also used it, but I can't confirm that.  I have seen pictures of the CA&S locomotive with the swastika on the tender (as I recall, in Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana).

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Posted by Shock Control on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 6:25 AM

The CN and Penn Central logos were very much of their era, i.e. late 60s/early 70s, and you could see all kinds of corporations similarly changing their logos then.  RCA ditched Little Nipper, and Capitol retired the Capitol dome.  Their replacements looked appropriate on contemporaneous records, but they looked downright bizarre on reissues of of their back catalog artists.  

As for favorites, I always loved Herbert Matters' logos for New Haven and Boston & Maine Railroads.  And, of course, the PRR logo.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 6:41 AM

Although it is my favorite and home railroad, the Chicago & NorthWestern Railway Logo, though traditional for 19th century, looked out if place much past 1920.

https://images.app.goo.gl/5eTSjUN3roMnWU2S6

 

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Posted by Shock Control on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 7:00 AM

charlie hebdo
Although it is my favorite and home railroad, the Chicago & NorthWestern Railway Logo, though traditional for 19th century, looked out if place much past 1920.

https://images.app.goo.gl/5eTSjUN3roMnWU2S6

Is that really a 19th-century logo?  It looks more recent than that, which may be one of the reasons they retained it.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:27 AM

ELRobby
I think my nomination for the worst herald, or perhaps the most reprehensible one, wins hands down.  That's the swastika that the Chicago, Attica & Southern emblazoned on the side of their tenders.

I see where you're coming from on this, but remember the swastika as an old symbol used world-wide from Japan to Native American cultures and lots of places in between.

Hitler grabbed on to it because he wanted a symbol for the Nazi Party that was bold, simple, and once anyone saw it they wouldn't forget it.  It worked for him, but he certainly ruined it for everyone else. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:30 AM

It was modernized  or changed many times over the years, but the ball and bar in some form remained its  basis.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:37 AM

Flintlock76

 

 

 
ELRobby
I think my nomination for the worst herald, or perhaps the most reprehensible one, wins hands down.  That's the swastika that the Chicago, Attica & Southern emblazoned on the side of their tenders.

 

I see where you're coming from on this, but remember the swastika as an old symbol used world-wide from Japan to Native American cultures and lots of places in between.

Hitler grabbed on to it because he wanted a symbol for the Nazi Party that was bold, simple, and once anyone saw it they wouldn't forget it.  It worked for him, but he certainly ruined it for everyone else. 

 

Freikorps units used it from 1918 onward; some Luftstreitkräfte aircraft used it during the war.

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Posted by cv_acr on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:46 AM

BaltACD

Is it a Canadian thing that the nose of a locomotive must be Red?

Both CN & CP have red noses with their initials (logo) in white.

Those aren't the only two railways in Canada, and the rest aren't painted red...

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 8:58 AM

cv_acr
 
BaltACD

Is it a Canadian thing that the nose of a locomotive must be Red?

Both CN & CP have red noses with their initials (logo) in white. 

Those aren't the only two railways in Canada, and the rest aren't painted red...

To Americans, there is nothing Canadian beyond CN & CP.  Those being the only two carriers that are seen South of the border.

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:07 AM

zugmann
1. Is there any real differnece between a logo and a herald? 

   I'd suggest this differentiation:

                                                          LOGOS:

File:New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad (Nickel Plate Road) - 757 steam  locomotive (S-2 2-8-4) & tender 6 (26516215423).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

                                                           

Modeling the Nickel Plate's ex-C&O Cabooses NKP Fun in Two Scales at Once

 

                                                      HERALDS:

   To me, a Logo comes from logos, or word.  Just using the word is to use a logo.  A "herald," as far as I'm concerned, is on the other hand, rather a combination of a logo and a coat-of-arms (the study of which is termed "heraldry").  The use of the term "herald" is probably incorrect; after all, it's a job title! However, it's commonly used and accepted, especially by railfans.

   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown.  Growing up and seeing this herald daily, it was strange to see, starting in the 1970's, that almost everywhere (non NKP) I looked, it was shown as below:

   In summary, to me, putting a logo into some kind of arrangement makes it a herald.  Whatever in the heck that is!  I think most railfans see them as interchangeable terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:29 AM

ELRobby
I have seen a reference that a railroad called the St. Louis, Rocky Mountain & Pacific (a Santa Fe predecessor) also used it, but I can't confirm that.  I have seen pictures of the CA&S locomotive with the swastika on the tender (as I recall, in Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana).

The Ft Wayne & Wabash Valley Traction Company started using a swastika as it's emblem in 1909  pictured here roughly at mid point of the car

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shookphotos/8314193900

 

Also, just for scale and scope, I recall the pre WWII courthouse in downtown Birmingham Alabama had swastikas cast in cement on either side of it's main entry.  Still in place the last time I was there in 1990.    Every 10-15 years some new comer would come to work for the local news paper and have a fit upon seeing them, try to launch a crusade. 

 

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:32 AM

NKP guy
   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown

 

FWIW, my disdain for the Bluebird livery stems mostly from the  whitewashed appearance of the sideboards.....

From the cab forward I think they are fine.

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Posted by NKP guy on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 10:25 AM

Convicted One:   

1.  You'll get no argument from me regarding the Bluebirds; I agree.

2.  President James A. Garfield's tomb in Cleveland's Lake View Cemetery, built in a Richardsonan Romanesque style  (1890), features a mosaic marble floor which has a border of small (wait for it!) reverse swastikas.  Curators there spend a lot of time explaining why.

3.  One of the best train rides in my life on the Ontario Northland RR took me right through the metropolis of Swastika in northern Ontario.  A vote on retaining its name during the war resulted in the residents deciding to keep it; after all, they reasoned, the town had it first!  To hell with Hitler!

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Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 11:10 AM

NKP guy

3.  One of the best train rides in my life on the Ontario Northland RR took me right through the metropolis of Swastika in northern Ontario.  A vote on retaining its name during the war resulted in the residents deciding to keep it; after all, they reasoned, the town had it first!  To hell with Hitler!

 

The city of Berlin, WI changed the syllable to be emphasized in its name because of the wars with Germany from berLIN to BERlin. It's been BERlin ever since. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 12:23 PM

charlie hebdo
some Luftstreitkräfte aircraft used it during the war.

Right, there was a German ace, a member of the Red Baron's "Flying Circus" who's name escapes me at the moment who used it as a personal marking.  This was before the Freikorps was established and certainly before the Nazis.

"Swastika" comes from the Sanskrit, translated it means "good luck," and it was used by quite a few people as a good luck symbol. I'd assume that's why that German pilot put it on his plane.  

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, December 14, 2021 12:43 PM

NKP guy

 

 
zugmann
1. Is there any real differnece between a logo and a herald? 

 

   I'd suggest this differentiation:

                                                          LOGOS:

File:New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad (Nickel Plate Road) - 757 steam  locomotive (S-2 2-8-4) & tender 6 (26516215423).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

                                                           

Modeling the Nickel Plate's ex-C&O Cabooses NKP Fun in Two Scales at Once

 

                                                      HERALDS:

   To me, a Logo comes from logos, or word.  Just using the word is to use a logo.  A "herald," as far as I'm concerned, is on the other hand, rather a combination of a logo and a coat-of-arms (the study of which is termed "heraldry").  The use of the term "herald" is probably incorrect; after all, it's a job title! However, it's commonly used and accepted, especially by railfans.

   Notice on the Bluebird above (with its boring colors and unimaginative logo!   LOL)  the herald's colors are reversed from the way it's almost always shown.  Growing up and seeing this herald daily, it was strange to see, starting in the 1970's, that almost everywhere (non NKP) I looked, it was shown as below:

   In summary, to me, putting a logo into some kind of arrangement makes it a herald.  Whatever in the heck that is!  I think most railfans see them as interchangeable terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I had the same question. Now tell me where a drumhead fits into this picture?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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