greyhounds I see the phrase “Class One Rails blame shippers, receivers and truckers” as being way, way to strong and being used pejoratively by people who have a very intense left-wing inclination to have the government control more of everything. The fact that the politicians tend to screw things up big time just doesn’t make a dent in their non-thinking. -1 Anyway, I don’t see the railroads as “Blaming.” I see them as explaining things as they are. A standard practice, which has worked well for over a century, is for the rail carrier to bring the freight in to a rail terminal and then notify the freight receiver: “Hey, it’s here. Come and get it.” The receiver then dispatches a teamster/driver to go get the freight. When the receiver fails to do that, a problem develops because the railroad must store the freight until the receiver gets the pick-up done. To prevent their terminals from being used as a free warehouse by receivers the railroads begin charging for the storage after a certain amount of “Free Time.” (“Free Time” was basically two days when I was working on the railroad.) The charge does escalate. The 1st couple extra days are at a nominal charge, then it increases over time with the storage days becoming progressively more expensive. This does make sense because the terminals do not have unlimited storage capacity to be used as free warehouse space by the freight receivers. A lot of the receivers are getting charged significant sums these days because they’re not picking up their freight. They’ve gone running to the government like a child runs to his/her mother. The failure is not the railroad’s fault. Pointing that fact out is not “Blaming” someone else. It’s explaining the situation properly. Supply chains all over the world are disrupted. There is no constructive action the government can take to change that. They can’t enact a container chassis or a truck driver. This will get worked out. And it will get worked out faster and better if the government just stays out of the way. -1 The politicians will tell us what football game we can watch if we let them. And we do let them. If you’ve ever wondered why the NFL doesn’t play regular season games on Friday nights or Saturdays during the fall, it’s because the government has decided we must watch high school and college football on those days. If we want to watch football at all.
You do not have a clue as to my politics. I simply posted an article concerning railroads execs taking zero responsibility for the mess. You always blame the government for any woes and claim anyone critical if your views is left wing. Utter nonsense.
charlie hebdoYou do not have a clue as to my politics.
Yes I do. And it's more than a "Clue."
And I didn't "Blame" anyone. Including the government.
greyhounds charlie hebdo You do not have a clue as to my politics. Yes I do. And it's more than a "Clue." And I didn't "Blame" anyone. Including the government.
charlie hebdo You do not have a clue as to my politics.
Evidence? More than a clue? But I suppose an extreme rightist accuses any moderate of being a leftist. You say you didn't blame government but you've been riding that hobby horse for years since you wrote a thesis, but in this thread you are using synonyms for blame.
zugmannHow many of those teams play in gov't built and funded stadiums?
Far too many.
When government gets involved in something like that it's crony capitalism and it misallocates economic resources to the detriment of the people.
I do not, in any way, support government funding of stadiums for pro teams.
It has to be said greyhounds hasn't blamed the government... yet. And while I agree there's a pejorative, dare I say dismissive tone to the topic, it's no indication of "leftist" bias, let alone an excuse to start the politics dance.
Where the government's role might be is in legislation based in the Constitutional authority to facilitate interstate commerce, defining standards for not only scheduled delivery and a range of 'disincentives' for late retrieval/forwarding but also for failing to 'precision schedule' arrival at the time a receiver expects to gain access to the shipment. It seems to me this would have salutary effects on both parties without the usual fines and strict scrutiny and emergent bureaucrazy that would go with the government also nosing in to enforce the legislated principles.
greyhounds zugmann How many of those teams play in gov't built and funded stadiums? Far too many. When government gets involved in something like that it's crony capitalism and it misallocates economic resources to the detriment of the people. I do not, in any way, support government funding of stadiums for pro teams.
zugmann How many of those teams play in gov't built and funded stadiums?
Virtually all pro teams play in stadiums that have been built and financed to local governments. To my limited knowledge Jerry Jones of the Cowboys is the only owner that has built a stadium on his own nickel. Local governments being held hostage by multi-billionaire team owners and their threats to move the teams to other local governments that are more willing to be held hostage than where the team currently calls home.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDVirtually all pro teams play in stadiums that have been built and financed to local governments.
And people wonder what happened to all the money that was supposed to go to infrastructure in the past few decades.
Putting money into infrastructure is fine, but there'd better be some oversight or it's going to disappear to who-knows-where.
greyhoundsI do not, in any way, support government funding of stadiums for pro teams.
Neither do I, and in fact I'd take it one step further.
If the colleges and universities with high-profile football programs around the country are the de facto farm teams for the NFL (which they are) then the NFL should foot the bills for those football programs. Period.
Higher education should be about just that, not manufacturing "gladiators."
Overmod It has to be said greyhounds hasn't blamed the government... yet. And while I agree there's a pejorative, dare I say dismissive tone to the topic, it's no indication of "leftist" bias, let alone an excuse to start the politics dance. Where the government's role might be is in legislation based in the Constitutional authority to facilitate interstate commerce, defining standards for not only scheduled delivery and a range of 'disincentives' for late retrieval/forwarding but also for failing to 'precision schedule' arrival at the time a receiver expects to gain access to the shipment. It seems to me this would have salutary effects on both parties without the usual fines and strict scrutiny and emergent bureaucrazy that would go with the government also nosing in to enforce the legislated principles.
The person in question has had this in his signature, for years: "I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic"
To answer the question if a claim has been filed for the value of the resin. You better believe that it was. That stuff was medical grade designed for pharmaceutical companies and expensive. But UP is fighting the claim from both the shipper and us hoping to drag it out to the point we get tired of fighting them. The shipper has a bigger gun to hit them with their going to the STB as we speak on this and several other problems they have had with UP over the last year. To the point where they actually got someone's attention.
Flintlock76 greyhounds I do not, in any way, support government funding of stadiums for pro teams. Neither do I, and in fact I'd take it one step further. If the colleges and universities with high-profile football programs around the country are the de facto farm teams for the NFL (which they are) then the NFL should foot the bills for those football programs. Period. Higher education should be about just that, not manufacturing "gladiators."
greyhounds I do not, in any way, support government funding of stadiums for pro teams.
The public funed stadia are 'sold' to the electorate on the basis of 'economic impact'. The idea that the ticket buyers to events at the stadia are infusing money into the local economy - through the tickets, through payroll to the participants of the events, through wares sold at the venue during the events, through parking and other fees that those attending the event will be paying for the privledge of using the tickets they purchased. The trickle down theory in action.
Shadow the Cats owner To answer the question if a claim has been filed for the value of the resin. You better believe that it was. That stuff was medical grade designed for pharmaceutical companies and expensive. But UP is fighting the claim from both the shipper and us hoping to drag it out to the point we get tired of fighting them. The shipper has a bigger gun to hit them with their going to the STB as we speak on this and several other problems they have had with UP over the last year. To the point where they actually got someone's attention.
Good! Hopefully y'all can get it resolved quickly (in a "railroad time" definition of quickly anyhow...).
CW
On this point, I am in agreement with you!!
The rails are not totally to blame, but clearly have a major contribution to the screw-up in the logistics chain. Their passing the buck strategy won't hunt.
charlie hebdoThe person in question has had this in his signature, for years: "I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic"
You have to give him some credit, he's being right up front about it.
In fact, I find that kind of honesty refreshing in this day and age.
The previous sentence is NOT intended as a critisism of any other Forum poster, so none of you take it as such.
Flintlock76 charlie hebdo The person in question has had this in his signature, for years: "I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic" You have to give him some credit, he's being right up front about it. In fact, I find that kind of honesty refreshing in this day and age. The previous sentence is NOT intended as a critisism of any other Forum poster, so none of you take it as such.
charlie hebdo The person in question has had this in his signature, for years: "I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic"
It's more than just being honest. It is a boast.
If I had a tag, it would say I am a pragmatist, looking to see what works best for the most, not some ideological purist. I am critical of all sectors. And that means I believe in upholding democratic values and science above all. If that makes me a leftist in his eyes, that says a lot about him.
The supply chain is made up of various transport industries. If any one of them fails, it affects the whole chain. But in this case, where is there evidence that any facet of the supply chain has failed? What we have is a surge in business as people restart their lives after the pandemic. The surge overwhelms the supply chain.
Naturally members of the supply chain point fingers at each other. Yet none of them are to blame. They are not expected to handle the largest possible surges. The direct cause of this is the restart, and the direct cause of that is the shutdown. Unless the shutdown was unnecessarily large and long, the direct cause was Covid. If the shutdown was unnecessarily large and long, the cause was the government.
EuclidUnless the shutdown was unnecessarily large and long, the direct cause was COVID. If the shutdown was unnecessarily large and long, the cause was the government.
It might be possible for 'government' to legislate guidelines for PSR/'just in time' shipping. This might include standards for how quickly a shipment is expected to be retrieved upon its scheduled accessibility at a particular point; what the general costs progressively over time might be if it is not (or a carrier needs to move it to 'storage'; how quickly, and to where, empty containers or chassis need to be returned; wgat compensation is to be expected when a railroad fails to deliver where and as 'scheduled' or promised.
While this is not 'safety' related, a great deal of it is legitimately related to interstate commerce under the Commerce Clause, and therefore constitutional to establish federal standards for.
But as I understand greyhounds to be pointing out, it is NOT the "government's" function, having passed such legislation, to establish any kind of government executive agency or procedures to enforce it, add riders a la PTC, come up with punitive fines for all concerned, use violations as a pretext for strict scrutiny. Let the civil courts cover any noncompliance, and work out the amount of any damages, and use commercial law provisions to enforce as needed.
To the extent 'government' needs to be involved, it would be in facilitating access to effective counsel for shippers or others going up against organizations with deep pockets, legal departments on retainer, Lorenzo- or Riffin-style excessive litigiousness, etc. But that is one of those government things, like free day care, that ought to be available anywhere, pro bono...
PSR means longer trains but the staff and the lifting capacity has not matched the longer trains
ronrunner, the evidence presented indicates the RR's are providing the transportation requested but the receivers are unable to pick up their orders.
ronrunnerPSR means longer trains but the staff and the lifting capacity has not matched the longer trains
The grounding capacity at intermodal terminals is insufficient to keep up with customers inability to remove their boxes from the terminals in a expeditious manner. Intermodal terminals do not have unlimited storage capacity to band-aid the deficiencies of their customers.
The other problem is a long standing trade deficit where there always more east bound containers full from Asia and the railroads have to pay fuel and labor to ship empty containers back
The other problem is a long standing trade deficit where there always more east bound containers full from Asia and the railroads have to pay fuel and labor to ship empty containers back west
ronrunner The other problem is a long standing trade deficit where there always more east bound containers full from Asia and the railroads have to pay fuel and labor to ship empty containers back west
If empty comtainers are going west it's because the ocean carriers want it that way. And if the railroads are handling them they aren't doing it for free. An empty container is not the same as an empty private railcar which generally does return at no additional cost.
Until earlier this year when demand for ocean containers began to outstrip their availability, many west bound cans moved loaded with commodities such as scrap steel, grain or packaged chemicals and plastic pellets - just to name some of the stuff being handled. Ocean carriers have, to my understanding, refused some west bound opportunities in order to expedite return of containers to the west coast and back to Asia more quickly.
ronrunner PSR means longer trains but the staff and the lifting capacity has not matched the longer trains
Lifting capacity is not the problem. Intermodal terminals are not designed for long term storage they have to maintain a balanced flow of boxes in and out of the terminal... It also takes chassis's to get boxes out of a terminal. When it comes to Ocean carries they dictate which chassis pools are to be used when flipping their boxes. When it comes to domestic carriers only high volume shippers such as JB Hunt or Schneider have their own chassis. Others rely on chassis pools. NS does own a small chassis fleet. Chassis capacity is severely curtailed right now. So that's another main reason boxes aren't moving...
Side note.. Found a little interesting tidbit. Walmart ranked #1 in import TEU's reported as of 2020. They came in at a total of 980,000 TEU's. Out of a total import volume of 24.5 Million TEU's. That slice represents 4% of that volume.. That's pretty substantial..
ronrunnerThe other problem is a long standing trade deficit where there always more east bound containers full from Asia and the railroads have to pay fuel and labor to ship empty containers back
Not a railroad problem.
charlie hebdo Shadow the Cats owner To answer the question if a claim has been filed for the value of the resin. You better believe that it was. That stuff was medical grade designed for pharmaceutical companies and expensive. But UP is fighting the claim from both the shipper and us hoping to drag it out to the point we get tired of fighting them. The shipper has a bigger gun to hit them with their going to the STB as we speak on this and several other problems they have had with UP over the last year. To the point where they actually got someone's attention. On this point, I am in agreement with you!! The rails are not totally to blame, but clearly have a major contribution to the screw-up in the logistics chain. Their passing the buck strategy won't hunt.
How major is it? While the Class 1's are currently having labor issues that are self inflicted.. Do railroads control labor issues outside their industry? What control do railroads have when it comes to ocean carriers preferred port of call? Do railroads control the chassis pools? Should railroads offer long term near-site storage to ease terminal congestion?
You can't put most of the blame on one wheel of the car if the others aren't performing...
SD60MAC9500 charlie hebdo Shadow the Cats owner To answer the question if a claim has been filed for the value of the resin. You better believe that it was. That stuff was medical grade designed for pharmaceutical companies and expensive. But UP is fighting the claim from both the shipper and us hoping to drag it out to the point we get tired of fighting them. The shipper has a bigger gun to hit them with their going to the STB as we speak on this and several other problems they have had with UP over the last year. To the point where they actually got someone's attention. On this point, I am in agreement with you!! The rails are not totally to blame, but clearly have a major contribution to the screw-up in the logistics chain. Their passing the buck strategy won't hunt. How major is it? While the Class 1's are currently having labor issues that are self inflicted.. Do railroads control labor issues outside their industry? What control do railroads have when it comes to ocean carriers preferred port of call? Do railroads control the chassis pools? Should railroads offer long term near-site storage to ease terminal congestion? You can't put most of the blame on one wheel of the car if the others aren't performing...
Every participant in the Supply Chain have their issues in all aspects of their own operations that affect every other participant in the Supply Chain.
A ClusterF of worldwide proportions.
OvermodIt might be possible for 'government' to legislate guidelines for PSR/'just in time' shipping. This might include standards for how quickly a shipment is expected to be retrieved upon its scheduled accessibility at a particular point; what the general costs progressively over time might be if it is not (or a carrier needs to move it to 'storage'; how quickly, and to where, empty containers or chassis need to be returned; wgat compensation is to be expected when a railroad fails to deliver where and as 'scheduled' or promised.
Balt: Good to see that someone from the rail end is not wearing rose-colored (ideological) glasses and not refusing to acknowledge that this is a massive mess and rails are not immune to criticism.
greyhoundsOvermod is looking to establish a centrally planed, government controlled freight rail transportation system. I have no idea why he thinks such an effort will work well “This Time” when it’s never worked well in the past.
Why he thinks a bunch of government bureaucrats can design a national freight rail transportation system better than the one we have now remains a mystery. We do have the safest, most efficient rail freight system in the world.
Overmod’s proposal would also effectively remove costs from the railroads' control.
The 'reciprocal' concern is to address the (now pretty well demonstrated) tendency of some railroads to fail to deliver according to their precision scheduling. Is greyhounds arguing that railroads shouldn't be held to their end of contractual intermodal handover provisions?
The point about using nothing but commercial law to settle 'disputes' is precisely to keep some damn bureaucracy or other from asserting authority over ensuring 'compliance'. Remember I said that the legislation involved principles, not defining statutory offenses that Federal machinery would enforce? That only goes so far as to set standards to be used in contracts -- with any breach then handled as for UCC contract disputes... comparatively little leeway for shystering, and not one cent for Government tribute.
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