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LOWERS QUADRANT SEMAPHORES

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 10:50 AM

Fred M Cain
If you saw a picture of an SP semaphore with a green, amber and red lens all on one blade, I'd tend to suspect that the quality of the picture might be questionable but I can't prove that.

Upon actually looking into this, the 'middle' lenses were indeed made as red on two-position lower-quadrant semaphores in American practice; this was called the 'Continuous Light Spectacle' and was supposed to keep the 'most restrictive' aspect visible if snow or ice or some other agency overbalanced the blade.

That middle aspect in the right-side head in the picture sure does look like a different, and more amber, color though... enlarge the picture and see.

It does appear there were 45-90 LQ heads made, with one of the last of them apparently in Memphis.  I do not have pictures but knowing they existed will help with the search.

 

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 10:34 AM

timz

<SNIP>

Dunno if any US railroad tried 0-45-90 lower-quadrant semaphores as block signals.

 

 
Yes, I think so.  I recall seeing some very old photographs taken in New England showing blades like that on absolute signals at junctions.  But they weren't really "Block" signals since they were controlled by Armstrong levers at junctions.
 
I'll have to ask on the New Haven Railroad forum to see if anyone can verify this for sure.
 
Regards,
FMC
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Posted by timz on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 10:25 AM

Far as anyone knows, no US railroad used block-signal semaphores showing three aspects at 30-degree increments of blade angle. Lower-quadrant blades were almost always two-position, 60 degrees apart; the exception could be two-position, 90 degrees apart.

Dunno if any US railroad tried 0-45-90 lower-quadrant semaphores as block signals.

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 10:24 AM

jeffhergert

Here's a picture, first one of the article, showing a lower quadrant with red, yellow, and green aspects on the SP.

 Railroad Signals: Search Lights, CPL's, And Semaphores (american-rails.com)

Jeff

 
Jeff,
 
Where?  I'm not seeing that.  I feel like I'm pretty familiar with SP's semaphores 'cause they had 'em in Phoenix when I was living there as a high school kid in the late 1960s.  The red flags had one green lens and two red lenses while the yellow flags had one green lens and two amber lenses.
 
If you saw a picture of an SP semaphore with a green, amber and red lens all on one blade, I'd tend to suspect that the quality of the picture might be questionable but I can't prove that.
 
This always puzzled me as to why as well.  I had always just assumed that while semaphores change position rather slowly, they wanted to have as little of a gap as possible when changing from clear to a more restrictive aspect.  If that middle lense were not there the signal would go dark at night while the blade was changing position.  That's my guess for what it's worth.
 
Does anybody know where we can find a retired SPT Co. signal maintainer?  They might know.
 
By the way, I did once read somewhere that some early predecessor companies to the New Haven Railroad used three-position lower quadrant semaphores but that was long, long ago and I think they might've been manually operated from "Armstrong" levers.
 
Regards,
FMC
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Posted by Loco2124 on Monday, November 23, 2020 12:05 PM
I have seen LQS with 2 red spectacles and one yellow...
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Posted by Loco2124 on Monday, November 23, 2020 11:55 AM

I have read about 3 position LQS having a fully vertical position that could sometimes be hard to read blending in with the mast. But on a 30-60-90 configuration, couldn't the 30 and 60 be confused as well?

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 23, 2020 10:59 AM

Balt, doesn't this post go in the 'Then and now' thread???

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 23, 2020 10:51 AM

Overmod
 
timz
The SP single-blade semaphore has two aspects. The three lenses are just for show. 

You miss the point.  In the picture, look at the left-hand and right-hand spectacle positions over the lamp relative to the blade angle.  I asked about 30-60-90 mechanisms and since these are obviously spectacles corresponding to those angles it would be fairly safe to assume the mechanism parts are, too. 

(Yes, technically that should probably be a 90-60-30 in lower-quadrant use, but it's the incremental angle in either case that's significant)

Seemingly all TV, both over the air and cable channels, have synchronized their commercial minutes so channel surfers go from one commercial on a channel to another commercial on another channel; with the hopes that they will return to their original channel as they will be unable to find anything more interesting.  Somehow this even tends to work on sporting events when you would think the 'breaks in the action' would generate less than predictable commercial slots.

When I was a season ticket holder of the BALTIMORE COLTS, there was a individual that would walk on the field in what appeared to be a fireman's duty coat - he was the identifier to the game's referee that a commercial was being taken and for play to be held up.  In the September & October games it was a minor inconvience.  In the bitter cold and winds of November and December games one wanted to get him off the field post haste.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 23, 2020 10:20 AM

timz
The SP single-blade semaphore has two aspects. The three lenses are just for show.

You miss the point.  In the picture, look at the left-hand and right-hand spectacle positions over the lamp relative to the blade angle.  I asked about 30-60-90 mechanisms and since these are obviously spectacles corresponding to those angles it would be fairly safe to assume the mechanism parts are, too.

(Yes, technically that should probably be a 90-60-30 in lower-quadrant use, but it's the incremental angle in either case that's significant)

I can't imagine these were designed with three positions for lenses without corresponding 'mechanism' for those positions.  That isn't to say SP used all of them; it's not uncommon to find spectacle positions 'blanked' with plates where particular railroads did not use corresponding positions.  But there is no position on these spectacles for an aspect corresponding to 90 degrees with the given blade attachment style, although I think I have seen plates with four openings in a couple of places (don't ask me where; I'm not a semaphore guy).

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Posted by timz on Monday, November 23, 2020 10:16 AM

The SP single-blade semaphore has two aspects. The three lenses are just for show.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 23, 2020 10:05 AM

Thanks, Jeff.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, November 23, 2020 9:23 AM

Here's a picture, first one of the article, showing a lower quadrant with red, yellow, and green aspects on the SP.

 Railroad Signals: Search Lights, CPL's, And Semaphores (american-rails.com)

Jeff

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, November 22, 2020 3:23 PM

While we're here, who used 0-30-60 lower-quadrant aspects?

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Posted by timz on Sunday, November 22, 2020 10:19 AM

That's a question -- were single-blade lower-quad automatic block signals always two-position, not three? What objection is there to 0-45-90 counterweighted blades?

(By the way: who used 0-90 lower-quad blades, besides N&W?)

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, November 22, 2020 9:15 AM

jeffhergert
I always thought that lower quadrant semaphores were counterbalanced to go to horizontal if something fails

They certainly ought to be; the question being whether you can trust the counterbalancing always working.  As a general rule, you want 'failure' either to display the most restrictive aspect or to result in something 'undefined' in operation that a system can rapidly and unambiguously recognize (the latter being a principle of computer binary logic, where the states are two different voltages or other quantities, not 'on' and 'off' as some explanatory books describe it.

I'd be nervous even about a train-order signal using lower-quadrant vertical as 'proceed' but as you noted, it's their sandbox.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, November 21, 2020 10:10 PM

Overmod

There is another point here, though, which is that a 45-degree mechanism couldn't safely display three aspects on a lower-quadrant semaphore.  If the power goes out the blade will fall under gravity to the same indication as full,and that's as bad as having lunar white, the color of fallen-out glass roundel, being full speed ahead...

For this, if you want three aspects, use a 30-degree increment head.  Horizontal is still stop, you have distinguishable levels at the two angles... and straight down is still 'most restrictive you can get' -- put a red in that fourth position if you want nighttime redundancy.

 

I always thought that lower quadrant semaphores were counter balanced to go to horizontal if something fails. 

Some lower quadrant semaphore train order signals had clear with the blade at or near vertical.

Jeff

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:48 PM

There is another point here, though, which is that a 45-degree mechanism couldn't safely display three aspects on a lower-quadrant semaphore.  If the power goes out the blade will might fall under gravity to the same indication as full,and that's as bad as having lunar white, the color of fallen-out glass roundel, being full speed ahead...

For this, if you want three aspects, use a 30-degree increment head.  Horizontal is still stop, you have distinguishable levels at the two angles... and straight down is still 'most restrictive you can get' -- put a red in that fourth position if you want nighttime redundancy.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, November 21, 2020 3:46 PM

Loco2124

If lower Quadrant semaphores were used to display only 2 aspects, why do they have 3 spectacles?

Lower quadrant semaphores could display all three aspects.  Depends on what the railroad wanted...

 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, November 21, 2020 11:05 AM

The spectacle is part of the counterbalance.  Rather than have two different sizes of parts (including motor drives) it might make better sense to 'standardize' on three aspect plates and simply blank the unused aspect position or leave its glass out.

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LOWERS QUADRANT SEMAPHORES
Posted by Loco2124 on Saturday, November 21, 2020 10:40 AM

If lower Quadrant semaphores were used to display only 2 aspects, why do they have 3 spectacles?

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