daveklepper Many understanding is that hand-brakes are not an all-or-nothing device, that one can wind them up to maximum effect or just apply enough force to stop a tendency to roll on a moderate grade or level track. Am I correct? So a conductor or other trainman would judge the specific situation and apply just what was essential for a safety margine, usually not enough to cause sliding.
Many understanding is that hand-brakes are not an all-or-nothing device, that one can wind them up to maximum effect or just apply enough force to stop a tendency to roll on a moderate grade or level track. Am I correct?
So a conductor or other trainman would judge the specific situation and apply just what was essential for a safety margine, usually not enough to cause sliding.
Dave,
Handbrakes are not all or nothing in the mechanical terms of application. But, they are all or nothing in terms of what is considered fully applied. So if a handbrake is required to be set, it is set fully without regard to what is actually needed to hold the car from moving. They only question is, what is meant by fully set?
Setting them initially finds the shoes hanging clear of the wheels, so the brake wheel turns freely with very little resistance, and so several wheel revolutions can be made without changing your hand position on the wheel.
When the shoes contact the wheels, the wheel winding action begins to gain resistance, you begin tugging on the wheel rotation about 1/3 rotation at a time, and the locking dog holds the wheel position each time you reposition your hand. Then each “stroke” of the wheel has the feel of taking more effort as though it were tightening a spring like when winding a clock. I have been told that the resiliency or feeling of tightening a spring does not come from an actual spring, such as an extension spring in the handbrake rod linkage. I understand that the spring action feel results from the elasticity of all of the brake linkage between the brake wheel and the shoes pressing against the wheels.
As the wheel is wound against this elasticity, the shoe/wheel contact gets more forceful. Generally, a handbrakes is applied to the tightness extent that it is considered fully applied to the maximum practical force. Typically it is not tightened with the intention of only applying the force actually needed. So, in that sense of the effect of setting a handbrake you could say they are “all or nothing.” They are wound to what one considers a tightness that corresponds to having them fully applied even if that is much more force than what is actually needed to hold the car.
Sometimes they are applied to cars that would not roll if there were no handbrake applied. In that case, it is simply a precaution against the possibility they might be only held by a small amount of friction which would further release later due to temperature changes, or maybe a wind might come up and cause the car to start rolling. But even in that case of being able to stand still without a handbrake; if one is required, it is applied to what is considered to be the fullest extent.
However, evaluations have determined that different trainmen each routinely apply with a force level that varies considerably between one person and another. There is a lot of resilient stretch as you continue to tighten the brake wheel after the shoes contact the wheels. To achieve what might seem to be the reasonable sufficient force; a person might tug and then reposition their hand on the wheel maybe 6-10 times before they consider the brake to be adequately set. It is possible to tighten them to the point of causing the chain to break. So that would be considered over-tightening.
An ideal hand brake would tell the operator when it was sufficiently tightened to the industry standard. But there is no such feature. Investigation has also found that handbrakes are not necessarily maintained to be capable of being properly set. In such cases, handbrakes may be tightened to what a person considers maximum torque, while the brake is providing holding power that is far less than adequate.
GBSD70ACe You can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service. You see handbrakes being dragged all the time, just spend a little time in the yard or on a local/industry job and it won't take long. Its easy for someone whose never done the job to be so strongly against moving cars with handbrakes applied.
You can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service.
You see handbrakes being dragged all the time, just spend a little time in the yard or on a local/industry job and it won't take long.
Its easy for someone whose never done the job to be so strongly against moving cars with handbrakes applied.
Count me among the non-railroaders who are surprised that it seems to be common practice to drag cars around with the handbrakes set. It shouldn't surprise you that we're surprised, since by definition we don't know the business and haven't been in your shoes. Perhaps it makes you feel better about yourself to assume an air of superiority...
tree68 GBSD70ACe Its just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations. We run 85 ton passenger cars and 100 ton first and second generation locomotives. We deal with flat wheels, and the same rules the "big boys" do, on over 50 miles of track at speeds up to 45 MPH. My certificate is issued under 49CFR240, just like the real railroaders. I may not have experience running 14,000 foot trains, but it's still real railroading.
GBSD70ACe Its just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations.
We run 85 ton passenger cars and 100 ton first and second generation locomotives. We deal with flat wheels, and the same rules the "big boys" do, on over 50 miles of track at speeds up to 45 MPH. My certificate is issued under 49CFR240, just like the real railroaders. I may not have experience running 14,000 foot trains, but it's still real railroading.
Larry, I have huge respect for what you do. And you've taught me a lot on this board.
Unfortunately, there are always people who have the need to assert some kind of pecking order, an order in which in their eyes (surprise, surprise) they are at the top.
Trains is a railfan magazine. People of all levels of RR knowledge should be able to come here and ask questions without being talked down to or insulted.
GBSD70ACe Oh okay then I guess? IMHO it ain't anywhere near the same sorry.
Oh okay then I guess? IMHO it ain't anywhere near the same sorry.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Working yard jobs it's fairly routine to shove or drag cars with hand brakes set when setting up your kicking post at the far end of the track or when you're pulling a cut out of a track that's tied at the other end. If the yard is one a grade my railroad usually requires the brakes to be tied at the other end so you would have to go all the way down to the other end of the cut every time you needed to move cars around to untie brakes just to tie them again. Heck for a while we weren't even allowed to ride the sides of cars in yards, got to love class 1 rring.
and yes handbrakes can be tied however tightly is needed but in most cases you should be tieing them tightly otherwise what's the point?
Leaving handbrakes set during switching is usually in a case of a car being moved in a switching scenario where it will be moved a short distance and then spotted again nearby. In that case, it is tempting to save the work of releasing brake and then having to turn right around a few minutes later and set it again. Otherwise, for switching, there is typically no reason to handle the cars with handbrakes set, and it would interfere with the work.
Also, it is common for whole trains to leave a yard with a handbrake set that should have been released. This can result in wheels either sliding or under heavy braking when the train has reached maybe 40-50 mph. If it is deep in the train, it might not be seen by the crew. But they are easier to see at night because of the fireworks that they can produce.
GBSD70ACeIts just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations.
GBSD70ACe Lithonia Operator GBSD70ACe You can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service. You see handbrakes being dragged all the time, just spend a little time in the yard or on a local/industry job and it won't take long. Its easy for someone whose never done the job to be so strongly against moving cars with handbrakes applied. Sorry I don't have your pedigree. Why WOULD a non-railroader have knowledge of certain practices? I'm sure you lack knowledge of other people's occupations. So what? Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all. Its just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations. News flash sometimes you have to break rules, it's simply a matter of first knowing that you are breaking a rule, choosing which rule to break, how to break it as safely as possible, and hoping you don't get caught. If we didn't break rules from time to time trains wouldn't move. The big railroads even have a term for it : malicious rules compliance. The railroad doesn't like people who do that. Of course I don't have knowledge of every field or occupation, but I also don't go online acting like I do. If we didn't move cars with handbrakes applied in the yard it would take a whole lot longer to get anything switched out. You're talking about a lot of extra walking especially when you're trying to set up yard tracks to kick into. Sometimes it's even in the rule book to shove cars with handbrakes applied. Shoving into stub tracks is one example.
Lithonia Operator GBSD70ACe You can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service. You see handbrakes being dragged all the time, just spend a little time in the yard or on a local/industry job and it won't take long. Its easy for someone whose never done the job to be so strongly against moving cars with handbrakes applied. Sorry I don't have your pedigree. Why WOULD a non-railroader have knowledge of certain practices? I'm sure you lack knowledge of other people's occupations. So what? Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all.
Sorry I don't have your pedigree.
Why WOULD a non-railroader have knowledge of certain practices? I'm sure you lack knowledge of other people's occupations. So what?
Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all.
Its just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations. News flash sometimes you have to break rules, it's simply a matter of first knowing that you are breaking a rule, choosing which rule to break, how to break it as safely as possible, and hoping you don't get caught. If we didn't break rules from time to time trains wouldn't move. The big railroads even have a term for it : malicious rules compliance. The railroad doesn't like people who do that.
Of course I don't have knowledge of every field or occupation, but I also don't go online acting like I do.
If we didn't move cars with handbrakes applied in the yard it would take a whole lot longer to get anything switched out. You're talking about a lot of extra walking especially when you're trying to set up yard tracks to kick into.
Sometimes it's even in the rule book to shove cars with handbrakes applied. Shoving into stub tracks is one example.
How is asking some questions about something "going online and acting like I know about it?" Asking the questions is in itself saying I don't know about the technique.
I'm not criticizing anyone. Just trying to understand why this technique is used.
I said the OP might have witnessed rules infractions, because one railroader here said the practice was against the rules on his road.
It's OK in my part of the world to move a car(s) with hand brakes as long as they don't go over a switch. It's usually done when shoving/pulling a track when the end that gets the hand brakes applied is at the far end.
There is a rule that requires hand brakes to be applied when spotting cars on a stub ended track, usually when spotting an industry. At least 150 feet from the end of the track the movement needs to be stopped, a suffucient number of brakes applied to control slack and the movement resumed to where the car needs to be spotted.
Jeff
Convicted OneThe very idea seemed mind boggling to me. But evidently pushing a locked up train isn't as rare as it might seem to us outsiders.
If the parted section isn't going to run away (ie, it's being pushed upgrade, or at least on the level), it could be put back on air (assuming the conductor can get to it either by walkway on the trestle (if there is one) or riding the last car from somewhere off the bridge back to the train).
If the train will stay bunched, just hook up the air, recharge the train (and thus release the brakes) and start shoving. If/when the brake pipe parts again, it'll just dump the parted section (again). Once the conductor (hopefully with a knuckle) has a safe place to work, he can replace the knuckle and they'll be on their way.
Pushing one or a few handbrakes (often only on one truck) may not be too difficult, but pushing 30-40 cars in emergency isn't going to happen.
Lithonia OperatorThree of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all.
A while back, I asked one of the railroaders what they would do to recover if they broke a knuckle while passing over a structure like the Tulip Trestle. And the response was to shove the parted section back off the bridge.
The very idea seemed mind boggling to me. But evidently pushing a locked up train isn't as rare as it might seem to us outsiders.
GBSD70ACeYou can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service.
I KNEW that one was coming, from the second I made my earlier post. I'm surprised it took this long.
Convicted One Is it really routine to shove cars around that have their handbrakes intentionally set?
Is it really routine to shove cars around that have their handbrakes intentionally set?
I'd like to see an answer on this also. I'd never heard of this.
Is the idea that yes, it can be pushed by an engine, but those three handbrakes would not allow the cut to just roll away? In other words, three handbrakes would the normal amount set for that size cut, but out of, well, laziness, he is doing it ahead of time?
Northtowne, it sounds like you've been witnessing rules infractions.
Juniata ManLarry: For a few years after the rollout of WILD detectors, I cynically conluded the only cars the detectors identified as having bad wheels carried private reporting marks. We leased our rail fleet (chemical shipper) but, the leasing companies I dealt with all said their wheel replacement costs had gone through the roof and, as a lessee, those higher costs worked their way back to us. I began to wonder if wheel replacement was a new revenue stream for the Class 1's. At an industry meeting that included a speaker from the FRA touting the benefits of the detectors, I asked him if they had statistics indicating the percentage of cars with private reporting marks flagged for bad wheels versus the number of cars with railroad reporting marks flagged for the same reason. He refused to answer. I'm retired now but, when I'm trackside, I'd swear I hear flat spots on far more railroad owned cars than privates. Curt tree68 Juniata Man The more expensive issue here is flat wheels. Replacing a wheel set is exponentially more expensive than brake shoes. And if you drag a car around with brakes set, it will develop flat spots. Curt Anyone who has done any trackside trainwatching knows how prevalent flat spots are. I've heard that the rule of thumb is that if you can hear the flat spot for seven cars in a moving train, it's actionable. There are, of course, specific parameters - haw big, how many, how close together.
For a few years after the rollout of WILD detectors, I cynically conluded the only cars the detectors identified as having bad wheels carried private reporting marks. We leased our rail fleet (chemical shipper) but, the leasing companies I dealt with all said their wheel replacement costs had gone through the roof and, as a lessee, those higher costs worked their way back to us. I began to wonder if wheel replacement was a new revenue stream for the Class 1's. At an industry meeting that included a speaker from the FRA touting the benefits of the detectors, I asked him if they had statistics indicating the percentage of cars with private reporting marks flagged for bad wheels versus the number of cars with railroad reporting marks flagged for the same reason. He refused to answer.
I'm retired now but, when I'm trackside, I'd swear I hear flat spots on far more railroad owned cars than privates.
Curt
tree68 Juniata Man The more expensive issue here is flat wheels. Replacing a wheel set is exponentially more expensive than brake shoes. And if you drag a car around with brakes set, it will develop flat spots. Curt Anyone who has done any trackside trainwatching knows how prevalent flat spots are. I've heard that the rule of thumb is that if you can hear the flat spot for seven cars in a moving train, it's actionable. There are, of course, specific parameters - haw big, how many, how close together.
Juniata Man The more expensive issue here is flat wheels. Replacing a wheel set is exponentially more expensive than brake shoes. And if you drag a car around with brakes set, it will develop flat spots. Curt
The more expensive issue here is flat wheels. Replacing a wheel set is exponentially more expensive than brake shoes. And if you drag a car around with brakes set, it will develop flat spots.
Anyone who has done any trackside trainwatching knows how prevalent flat spots are.
I've heard that the rule of thumb is that if you can hear the flat spot for seven cars in a moving train, it's actionable.
There are, of course, specific parameters - haw big, how many, how close together.
I can't speak to your experiences - in my experiences the WILD detector on my territory caught mostly system cars - of course the highest number of cars over the WILD detector was loaded system coal cars. While others would occasionally get detected, the bulk were system loaded coal hoppers.
One thing I did detect - by tracing the records of cars that activated the the detector - on the occasions that level 3 cars went to destination and returned to the mines empty, without having the wheels changed out for whatever the reason, on the empty side of the trip they were activating the detector at level 2 - thus not requiring any action on that trip. When those cars would get loaded and return to the Tidewater, they would activate the detector at either Level 3 again and most of the time they would be Level 4 and require immediate set out at the first opportunity.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Larry:
SD70DudeLoaded cars will never, ever skid, no matter how hard you apply the handbrake.
Oh yes they can. And also the fastest way to get flat spots.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Except for the push/pull test and when riding a free rolling car, moving cars with handbrakes applied is a rule violation. But it does happen.
Loaded cars will never, ever skid, no matter how hard you apply the handbrake. I've dragged them around myself when the occasion suits it, such as in winter when you want to warm the brakes up before spotting a car at or near the end of a track.
Once a wheel develops a flat spot it will tend to stop on the flat spot during braking, and the spot will get a little bit worse each time. This goes for locomotives and cars.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Juniata ManThe more expensive issue here is flat wheels. Replacing a wheel set is exponentially more expensive than brake shoes. And if you drag a car around with brakes set, it will develop flat spots. Curt
Changing out flat wheels is a part of routine running repairs that get charged to the account of the owner.
The distance cars would be shoved with handbrakes applied is not sufficient to create a condemable flat spot. Condemable flat spots get created where the brakes stick on a car that is being moved in a train and the wheel set(s) have been move miles between the onset of the sticking and having the issue found and corrected.
The Class 1 carriers have been installing WILD Detectors (Wheel Impact Load Detectors). These devices measure the impact loading of wheels passing over the detector. On CSX, when I was working, there were 5 levels that the detectors indicated - NO impact and impact level 1 to 4. Levels 1 & 2 would post a notification to the car's record in the Car & Train reporting data base, with no further action being required. Level 3 reported to the Car Dept. Help Desk, the Chief Dispatcher and Trick Dispatcher where the WILD is located with instruction for the train to be stopped, the specific car inspected and if the Conductor deems the car safe to move the car can be taken to destination at not exceeding 30 MPH. The Level 4 impact is reported to the same personnel as the Level 3, however the train must be stopped, the car inspected by the Conductor and if safe to move the car is to be set out at the nearest set off location and the train must not exceed 10 MPH while moving to the set off location.
Cars at Level 3 & 4, get rewheeled before their next moves.
One note on setting handbrakes - handbrakes are normally applied to the 'down hill end' of the cut. If a train is setting off 100 cars on a 'down hill' deficientin a situation where the point of the shove does not have to be protected, the 'efficient' Conductor will set the required number of handbrakes - shove the cut into the track, stop the movement on the uphill portion of the set off track and make the cut and then do what is necessary to get the train back into a condition to continue on to destination.
I meant to mention flat wheels, usually a result of moving with hand brakes on; I got too sleepy in posting and brain shut down.
NorthtowneI notice when cars are set out by a thru train, the conductor will set hand brakes on usually the far end three cars before moving into final placement in yard track. (I realize the hand brakes would have to be set at some point before leaving the cars). Guess it is so he/she can stay near the engines to cut off front end of set out cars. This must wear on brake shoes and who pays for new ones. Most cars are now private owned and am wondering if railroads change them out as needed and bill owner. This would not seem fair to car owners. Seems that you would not go to the owners maintainence shop for just new shoes. Norhtowne
Norhtowne
There is a entire system in place to cover the repair of equipment when on 'foreign' carriers - the system defines who pays what and how much is paid for specific kinds of repairs. Replacing brake shoes is one of the items covered. [Foreign is any carrier that is not the owner of the equipment.]
If the required repairs for a car are more extensive than those covered in the freight car repair billing system - the system requires the car to be moved back to the owner for repairs, the 'home shop' cars. All carriers and private owners have designated locations where their cars that are 'home shops' are to be delivered to.
I notice when cars are set out by a thru train, the conductor will set hand brakes on usually the far end three cars before moving into final placement in yard track. (I realize the hand brakes would have to be set at some point before leaving the cars). Guess it is so he/she can stay near the engines to cut off front end of set out cars. This must wear on brake shoes and who pays for new ones. Most cars are now private owned and am wondering if railroads change them out as needed and bill owner. This would not seem fair to car owners. Seems that you would not go to the owners maintainence shop for just new shoes.
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