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What won’t work, does? Hyperloop

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What won’t work, does? Hyperloop
Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:31 PM

Branson Virgin Hyperloop passenger test

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/359390

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 4:15 PM

Gramp
Branson Virgin Hyperloop passenger test

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/359390

When they get the speed up to 300 KPH for 100 KM or more, then they will have something to crow about and build upon.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 4:35 PM

The "build out" to make such a system actually useful, might  prove daunting.

Oh joy, another  form of mass transit competing for subsidies. 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 5:37 PM

Monorail!  Monorail!

What problems with "duo-rail" ground transport are these systems supposed to solve?

Has hovertrain or maglev ever offered any advantage with respect the maintenance cost of both the tracks and wheels and bogies for high-speed trains?  Or is the maglev advantage speed, and the Hyperloop, yet even more speed?

How do you make a switch with Hyperloop, or is the idea that one would get out of your seat and board a different Hyperloop at hub stations?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 6:04 PM

How many 'tubes' will the Hyper-loop vehicles operate in each direction - what sort of headway will be maintained between vehicles?  Questions?  Questions? Questions?

There is a long, long, long way between 'proof of concept' to a operating system with a positive economic return on investment - be that investment public or private.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 11:46 AM
 

MagLev is much further along than Hyperloop. I expect to see the infant phase of an intercity MagLev system break ground within this decade. Either in China or Japan. Hyperloop is many decades off from any feasible operation. That's if it does become feasible.

 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 12:44 PM

If I wanted to ride in a transonic Suburban with tiny porthole windows, I'll do it well above the ground with a good BRS/parafoil emergency mechanism, not in a trillion-dollar single-purpose tunnel that even minor earthquakes might compromise.  This is Beach's vacuum subway 2.0, with roughly comparable throughput, with either remarkably long safe headway or effective 'platooning' with physical contact (considering the effective deceleration should a pad 'lose integrity' on one of the Suburbans...)

If the whole generation of Aerotrains failed to thrive because there were no alternate uses for the track, and no cost-effective primary uses for the track ... why should we think a system with 3x the guideway cost and only a fraction of the operating safety would be any better?

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Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 5:58 PM

I think construction of Japan's maglev has been stopped for now. I think these technologies are like the SST. Exciting but only 'useful' til the money runs out. What's the point when you can reliably fly 600mph by air and 180mph by rail?  Personally, I'd rather resources be used constructing the safest possible, most reliable, economical electrical system. And a safe, efficient hydrogen fuel cell system for road vehicles. 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 6:35 PM

Gramp

I think construction of Japan's maglev has been stopped for now. I think these technologies are like the SST. Exciting but only 'useful' til the money runs out. What's the point when you can reliably fly 600mph by air and 180mph by rail?  Personally, I'd rather resources be used constructing the safest possible, most reliable, economical electrical system. And a safe, efficient hydrogen fuel cell system for road vehicles. 

 

600 MPH by air?  In which century?

Airliners fly much slower than that to save on fuel.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 7:48 PM

BaltACD
When they get the speed up to 300 KPH for 100 KM or more, then they will have something to crow about and build upon.

Cost to build and maintain has to be proven as well.   As well as capacity to haul large amounts of people on a per hour basis.    I have a distinct feeling the theory will fall apart in one of those areas.   We shall see.

There is also a speed limit that has not been mentioned so far.   They reported in the hyperloop tests as well as some of the maglev tests that above a specific speed some humans feel physical discomfort, disorientation or dizziness.   Forget what speed that is but they hit it with the Maglev in China and I am not sure how they fixed it or if they fixed it.   Virgin has run into it with it's slower speed tests.

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:10 PM

CMStPnP
 They reported in the hyperloop tests as well as some of the maglev tests that above a specific speed some humans feel physical discomfort, disorientation or dizziness.

There may be a subsonic vibration at certain speeds.  That's been encountered with ventilation systems.  Above a certain speed even slight undulations in the carriage system may induce that.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:13 PM

MY concern is what happens when an anomaly occurs 40 miles from a terminal. It would be like being stuck in an elevator. And the tube is built to hold a vacuum so it is strong. The base tunnels under the alps have thoughtful plans for contingency. I would like to see the hyperloops' plans for contingencys. 

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 9:45 PM

Paul Milenkovic

600 MPH by air?  In which century?

Airliners fly much slower than that to save on fuel.

600MPH is about Mach 0.9 at cruising altitude, ISTR that airliners typically fly M0.80 to M0.82 (~530 MPH). This is kind of funny as the Republic XR12 piston engine recce plane could cruise at 450+MPH and Republic was trying to get interest in an airliner version.

OTOH, the whole rationale for the Hyperloop design is that air drag at sea level becomes a real problem much above 100mph. Developing an short haul electric airliner could easily cost less than the CA HSR project.

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Thursday, November 12, 2020 10:11 AM

SD60MAC9500
 

MagLev is much further along than Hyperloop. I expect to see the infant phase of an intercity MagLev system break ground within this decade.

<SNIP>

I'm not sure about this.  The real disadvantage of maglev - and it's a big one, is that its equipment is not able to use conventional tracks nor can conventional equipment use maglev tracks.

In France, the TGVs use/used convential tracks to reach certain terminals and in other areas as well while new right of ways were being developed.  That's a BIG plus that shouldn't be overlooked.

The top experimental speed of convential high-speed rail is about that of maglev or at least comes close anyways (around 300-325 mph).

Lyndon Henry who helped launch the Light Rail Now website refers to maglev, hyperloop, monorail, etc. as "gadgetbahn".  That's a good name for it.  All of these systems will probably be built and put into operation at some point and at some location.  (There are already at least several maglevs operating).

But will any of these gadget-like technologies prevail in the end?  I believe that the jury is still out.  Way out.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, November 12, 2020 1:45 PM

You're right about such systems. Remember when Disneyland opened and the future was monorails? Didn't happen, did it? 

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, November 12, 2020 1:49 PM

Paul Milenkovic
Monorail!  Monorail!

I hear those things are awfully loud...

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, November 12, 2020 2:45 PM

Paul Milenkovic

 600 MPH by air?  In which century?

Airliners fly much slower than that to save on fuel.

 

 
Depending on altitude, outside air temperature and indicated airspeed many aircraft fly at 460 - 480 knots true airspeed.  That equals to 529 - 552 MPH true air speed.  Of course your ground speed is never that due to upper level winds,  Not really part of this coversation.
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Posted by n012944 on Thursday, November 12, 2020 2:58 PM

zugmann

 

 
Paul Milenkovic
Monorail!  Monorail!

 

I hear those things are awfully loud...

 

What about us brain dead slobs?

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 13, 2020 7:39 AM

n012944
What about us brain dead slobs?

You'll be given cushy pandemic-recovery jobs.

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Posted by NittanyLion on Friday, November 13, 2020 3:46 PM

BaltACD

There is a long, long, long way between 'proof of concept' to a operating system with a positive economic return on investment - be that investment public or private.

 

That's the bugaboo people have a hard time with, even in the face of a working model.  There's a ton of stuff we could build, quite arbitrarily, that would never, ever be feasible.  Somehow, this is unperceived.

For instance, we could easily build a spaceplane capable of kangaroo flights from, say, New York, reaching any point on Earth in under 45 minutes.  There's nothing to actually develop, just sit down and start bending metal with knowledge we already have.  Tickets would be on the range of hundreds of millions of dollars, though.  But, we could actual build it if we wanted to.

Feasible?  Never.  By the time you'd get your launch costs down low enough, you'd likely see your vehicle superceded by other technologies.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 13, 2020 5:00 PM

NittanyLion
For instance, we could easily build a spaceplane capable of kangaroo flights from, say, New York, reaching any point on Earth in under 45 minutes.

The cost-effective number I saw was 54 minutes, net of takeoff and landing time at non-semiballistic speeds.  (This does somewhat assume no assertion of national 'space rights' for overflight...)

In case anyone is wondering, the limiting distance is half the great circle between the two points.  

Does anyone still have an URL for that Lockheed spoof progress report from 1965?  They stated the case for hypersonic economics rather well by noting that for an additional outlay of some more or less astronomical number they were increasing the number of seats in their design from 8 to 10...

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 13, 2020 5:01 PM

NittanyLion
For instance, we could easily build a spaceplane capable of kangaroo flights from, say, New York, reaching any point on Earth in under 45 minutes.

The cost-effective number I saw was 54 minutes, net of takeoff and landing time at non-semiballistic speeds.  (This does somewhat assume no assertion of national 'space rights' for overflight...)  Yes, with more modern materials I wouldn't be surprised to find it's under 45 minutes now.

In case anyone is wondering, the limiting distance is half the great circle containing antipodal points.  Distance to any other two points will be less.  

Does anyone still have an URL for that Lockheed spoof progress report from 1965?  They stated the case for hypersonic economics rather well by noting that for an additional outlay of some more or less astronomical number they were increasing the number of seats in their design from 8 to 10...

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Friday, November 13, 2020 6:18 PM

I guess this needs to be posted on the Humor thread, but the answer is 7 hours and 9 minutes?

Why 7 hours and 9 minutes you say?

54 minutes for the "semi-ballistic flight", one hour to get through Security, a half hour to wait for parents with small children, the elderly, credentialed active-duty military, and weenies who have accumulated good will for someone else paying for their many flights to board first, 15 minutes for the flight attendants to plead with people who cannot find overhead bin space to allow their overstuffed roll-aways to be placed in the cargo hold, 15 minutes at the other end waiting for a gate and another 15 minutes trying to get off the rocket ship while other passengers wrestle their anvils out of the overhead bins.

Wait a minute, you say, that only adds up to 3 hours and 9 minutes?

Yeah, but then you have to allow another 2 hours for ground transportation at each end! Hmm

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Gramp on Friday, November 13, 2020 10:17 PM

That last mile is a killer. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, November 13, 2020 10:28 PM

Gramp
That last mile is a killer. 

In most forms of transportation - the first mile and the last mile are the most difficult miles.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, November 14, 2020 12:31 PM

Paul Milenkovic
the answer is 7 hours and 9 minutes?

It's actually worse than that.    The 54 minute figure was for Federal Express; there is little potential passenger traffic most of the places these aircraft would go.  But the figure also applies to any other set of points on a great circle, and at the peak speed for semiballistic flight a simple load of tungsten rods in one of the load bays, plus another crewmember with a hammer, and you've got real trouble.

It's interesting to consider what would have happened if the air transport industry had in fact invested heavily in followons to the 2707 and sold expensive quick travel instead of wide body commodity.  I think we'd still see People Express-like small-aircraft 'convenience' for everyone not needing the high speed, and widebodies for volume...

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, November 14, 2020 4:43 PM

MY concern is what happens when an anomaly occurs 40 miles from a terminal. It would be like being stuck in an elevator. And the tube is built to hold a vacuum so it is strong. The base tunnels under the alps have thoughtful plans for contingency. I would like to see the hyperloops' plans for contingencys. With out one, I ain't about to get aboard. At least when I get on METRA, they announce where the emegency windows are.

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 14, 2020 5:46 PM

Electroliner 1935

And the tube is built to hold a vacuum so it is strong.

 

Well, it's strong enough.  But it doesn't take much for a tube to resist 15 psi of compression.  The strength will more needed to keep the tube from sagging between supports.  And then there's the other strength:  not-leaking (much).

 

Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 14, 2020 6:52 PM

CMStPnP

There is also a speed limit that has not been mentioned so far.   They reported in the hyperloop tests as well as some of the maglev tests that above a specific speed some humans feel physical discomfort, disorientation or dizziness.   Forget what speed that is but they hit it with the Maglev in China and I am not sure how they fixed it or if they fixed it.   Virgin has run into it with it's slower speed tests.

 

It doesn't seem to be 268 mph.  I rode the Shanghai maglev, and noted nobody in distress.  Maybe they kept it to themselves.

I don't recall the noise level, but it certainly wasn't obnoxious.  I could easily talk to my seatmate.  The ride was reminiscent of a regular train on good track at about 60 mph--a little movement now and then--no problem walking around.

I had a great time, especially watching us pass cars on the freeway like they were parked.

I'd sure like to hear more about this odd phenomenon.

 

Ed

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, November 14, 2020 7:10 PM

Electroliner 1935
MY concern is what happens when an anomaly occurs 40 miles from a terminal.

Probably along the lines of many tunnels that have an accompanying smaller tube for wiring, etc, and to allow access throughout the tunnel without having to travel in the problem tube.  Such access tubes would likely have surface access at reasonable distances.

LarryWhistling
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