Lake Placid rail removal - thanks again to our rails-to-trails "buddies"

[MMLDelete]

tree68

Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense.

The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return.  Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north.  Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose.  Those trips take around an hour and a half.

There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains.  It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours.  That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara.  Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH.

 

 

Thanks man. Do any trains go from Thendara to OL, back past Thendara to Big Moose, then back to Thendara? (I'm guessing not.)

From Thendara, are there ever two trains running simultaneously, one doing the north turn, the other the south? Or is there just one trainset based there?

[Flintlock76]

I know what you mean L-O.  In my case however, I was "late to the party" in the railfanning game.  I grew up in Northern New Jersey, and this is what I missed:

The Erie-Lackawanna, both the freights and commuter trains still running with the last of the Stilwell cars.

The Lehigh Valley.

The Jersey Central. 

The Penn-Central, both on the old NYC West Shore and the old Pennsy lines.

The Reading.

The shaky old Susquehanna. 

And oddly enough the Suszy-Q's still around!  

Moving to Virgina I did catch the last of the old RF&P and CSX locomotives still in their pre-merger schemes.  Very colorful. 

Oh well, what are you gonna do?

[adkrr64]

Lithonia Operator

tree68

Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense.

The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return.  Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north.  Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose.  Those trips take around an hour and a half.

There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains.  It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours.  That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara.  Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH

Thanks man. Do any trains go from Thendara to OL, back past Thendara to Big Moose, then back to Thendara? (I'm guessing not.)

From Thendara, are there ever two trains running simultaneously, one doing the north turn, the other the south? Or is there just one trainset based there?

In years past, we would sometimes have the Utica - Thendara train continue north to Big Moose while the Thendara local went south to Otter Lake for a couple of trips. The Utica train would start back south after the second Otter Lake train returned to Thendara And cleared up with the dispatcher.

Unsure what the schedule will be once the improvements to Tupper Lake are completed. Even with improved track speeds, it will be difficult to get from Utica to Tupper and back within the 12 hour HOS limits.

P.S. Larry and I have worked together for close to 15 years now.

[ROBIN LUETHE]

As I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up.  They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.  

[tree68]

There is only one trainset in Thendara.  We used to do a trip to Big Moose in the morning, which at times included a stop for brunch at the restaurant there.

[mudchicken]

ROBIN LUETHE

As I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up.  They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.  

 

NO

[Harrison]

Flintlock76

 

 

Harrison

Those are some of my home rails! How dare they do this! I'm getting worked up over this, I'd better go have some tea.

 

 

 

 

There's the lesson Harrison, as a budding railfan videographer try and catch as much as you can when you can.  Many veteran raifans will tell you that growing up they naturally assumed that what was would always be, and not just favorite railroads or railfanning spots but other places like burger joints, ice cream stands, bowling alleys, movie theaters, corner bars, hobby shops, man I could go on and on.  Some things stay the same, thank goodness, but change is always constant.  Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much.  Sometimes you see it coming, sometimes it sneaks up on you, but it's always there.

 

I'm still wishing I went up to Quebec to railfan the CM&Q before it got bought out and the border shut down. Unfortunately with the Adirondack Scenic line, the trains stopped a couple years before I started taking pictures. Fortunately, I was able to ride the train when I was younger (Almost too little to remember, although I do remember certain parts) and I did the railbikes a few years ago. I have (not the greatest) photos my mom took somewhere on one of my hardrives, I'll have to dig them out and post them sometime. When we camp at Rollins Pond campground near Tupper Lake I like to walk along the old tracks. (the ones they're tearing out)

[Flintlock76]

Harrison

When we camp at Rollins Pond campground near Tupper Lake I like to walk along the old tracks. (the ones they're tearing out)

Hey, keep walking what's left, you never know, you might find a spike or two, or some track bolts or tie plates as souvenirs!

[tree68]

ROBIN LUETHE

As I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up.  They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.  

This is the Adirondack Park, where having the wrong colored roof can bring wrath upon you.

The Adirondack Park Agency's recent action to add "trail" to the definition of a transportation corridor should tell you that they'll do pretty much anything they want.  I would not be the least bit surprised to see the ROW's description as a transportation corridor pulled entirely...

[MidlandMike]

tree68

EDIT:  It's not really fair to blame the rails-to-trails crowd for this debacle.  IIRC, the official R2T folks actually "disowned" the effort.  This was the work of a few rich people in the high peaks area who - yes - want everyone out of their woods.

As I recall the R2T legal council represented the Adirondack trail group.

[MidlandMike]

A generation ago when some governments rescued a number of failing rail lines, many thought the lines had been saved.  Unfortunatly public ownership is sometimes subject to the whims of the public, which leaves those lines back on shakey ground.  In New York, the Catskill scenic line has lost some rail; the ASR is now losing rail; and I am worried that the Saratoga & North Creek may become a trifecta.

[Electroliner 1935]

tree68

There are restrictions on what can be cut in the Adirondack Forest.  After the big blowdown in 1995, loggers were prohibited from harvesting that fallen timber.  So it lays there, rotting.

Larry, am I correct in assuming that there have been no periods of drought that would be a cause for wild fires like California's where the undergrowth intensified the fires?

[Flintlock76]

deleted

[Flintlock76]

If I presume to speak for Larry just a bit, California-style wildfires in that part of the country are really more the exception than the rule.  The foliage is mostly hard-to-ignite hardwoods, the climate tends to be wetter, and the topography mitigates against it as well.

The most common areas in the Northeast that I'm familiar with that are subject to wildfires or forest fires are New Jersey's Pine Barrens and the Hackensack Meadows just to the west of New York City, both are foliated with easy to ignite and burn softwoods with a high resin content (the Pine Barrens) or in the case of the Meadows tall, thick reeds that dry out quickly during low-rain periods. 

I'm not saying forest fires can't  happen in Larry's neck of the woods, but from what I know they don't happen very often.

[York1]

I realize this is off-topic ...

I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn.

Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today.  (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.)

 

My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails.  Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad.  The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain.  It must all now be trucked.  Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.

[Overmod]

tree68

I would not be the least bit surprised to see the ROW's description as a transportation corridor pulled entirely...

The day that happens is the day the suits are filed to sever the ROW.  If that hasn't happened already by then...

There was enough risk of fire in the Adirondacks at the time the line was in full traffic that the NYC used oil-burning locomotives at considerable trouble and expense.  There is less, but nonnegligible, risk using diesels and modern brakeshoes.

[tree68]

There have been major fires in the forest in the past.  If you drive up to Old Forge from Utica, you pass a historical marker noting a fire that I think ran 25,000 acres.  For reference, there are 640 acres in a square mile. (Think about that sometime when you hear how large some of those western fires get.)

While we do get the occasional larger fires (one near Old Forge this spring burned for several days), they don't often run away for the reasons previously noted.

That's not to say that the whole forever wild thing might not come back to bite someone one of these days.  But - that's part of the natural forest cycle.

Remember that some western conifers actually require fire to properly germinate.

The Adirondack Railroad has assisted with firefighting efforts around the ROW a couple of times.  

One of the Adirondack fire trains was stationed at Ne-Ha-Sa-Ne, location of Webb's great camp and private station on the railroad.

[mudchicken]

York1

I realize this is off-topic ...

I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn.

Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today.  (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.)

 

My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails.  Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad.  The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain.  It must all now be trucked.  Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.

 

York: The railroad, when it quit being a through route, could not cover the taxes, much less the maintenance costs. Throw in the poor subgrade up there between O'Neill and Valentine and what evolved is pretty explainable. Nebkota could not even survive on a shoestring. 

[mudchicken]

York1

I realize this is off-topic ...

I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn.

Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today.  (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.)

 

My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails.  Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad.  The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain.  It must all now be trucked.  Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.

 

York: The railroad, when it quit being a through route, could not cover the taxes, much less the maintenance costs. Throw in the poor subgrade up there between O'Neill and Valentine and what evolved is pretty explainable. Nebkota could not even survive on a shoestring. 

The beetle killed trees in Colorado along with super dense fuel on the ground for generations have fed the two major record breaking fires here in north Central Colorado.

[mudchicken]

York1

I realize this is off-topic ...

I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn.

Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today.  (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.)

 

My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails.  Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad.  The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain.  It must all now be trucked.  Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.

 

York: The railroad, when it quit being a through route, could not cover the taxes, much less the maintenance costs. Throw in the poor subgrade up there between O'Neill and Valentine and what evolved is pretty explainable. Nebkota could not even survive on a shoestring. 

Northern Nebraska can rival Wyoming in being "empty". (Just drive along NE-2/ US-20 to see)

The beetle killed trees in Colorado along with super dense fuel on the ground for generations have fed the two major record breaking fires here in north Central Colorado. (Agree with you that some of the environmental actions actually caused bigger headaches and saved nothing ... "Forest Management" is a real/viable thing the do-nothings have ruined)

[MMLDelete]

I believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.

What was the schedule like then? Did any trains go the entire length? If so, was there a northbound and a southbound, with a meet somewhere?

It seems like too long a trip for a train to be a turn.

Was there sufficient parking in Utica for people to use the trains more for "transportation" than as an excursion. I'm thinking like someone takes the train to LP, or somewhere short of that, stays a week in a lodge or cabin, then returns by train to Utica. Was it possible or practical to use the train(s) that way? It seems like that would have been an awesome way to have a vacation. Maybe take two weeks, and stay at a variety of places.

[York1]

mudchicken

The railroad, when it quit being a through route, could not cover the taxes, much less the maintenance costs. Throw in the poor subgrade up there between O'Neill and Valentine and what evolved is pretty explainable. Nebkota could not even survive on a shoestring.  Northern Nebraska can rival Wyoming in being "empty". (Just drive along NE-2/ US-20 to see)

 

You're right.  The railroad could not make it hauling minor amounts of grain once a year.

Those little towns all welcomed the trail once the railroad was gone.  They really thought it would bring at least a small amount of traffic to their towns.  I don't think the trail has even remotely lived up to some of their expectations.  I know there were many ranchers who had hoped to get some of that trail land.

I love that drive up Highway 2 through the Sandhills.  Many people think it's boring, but I think the prairie is a neat thing to see.

[Overmod]

Lithonia Operator

I believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.

The big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics.  When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'.  Any expected follow-on boom in winter sports or interest with the added facilities for tourism built in the Lake Placid region didn't translate into anything that would benefit the railroad.

[tree68]

Lithonia Operator

I believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.

To my knowledge, the Olympic iteration of the railroad operated through the Olympics (which is why it was resurrected) through mid-August of 1980, at which time it was shut down due to safety concerns, among others.  I was not involved, so can't speak to specifics - all I have is second-hand knowledge, although I do know some people who were involved in that operation.

Lithonia Operator

What was the schedule like then? Did any trains go the entire length? If so, was there a northbound and a southbound, with a meet somewhere?

It seems like too long a trip for a train to be a turn.

The 1980 operation ran not one, but two trains.  The morning trains met at Tupper Lake, the afternoon trains met at Thendara.  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/4905424293/

 

Lithonia Operator

Was there sufficient parking in Utica for people to use the trains more for "transportation" than as an excursion. I'm thinking like someone takes the train to LP, or somewhere short of that, stays a week in a lodge or cabin, then returns by train to Utica. Was it possible or practical to use the train(s) that way? It seems like that would have been an awesome way to have a vacation. Maybe take two weeks, and stay at a variety of places.

I don't think parking was an issue.  While the linked schedule shows a number of stops, I don't know how often any of them were used.

The 8AM departure from Utica allowed a return the same day, arriving back at Utica at around 10PM.  It was likely the most popular trip.  The same was true of Lake Placid Departures - you could do a round trip in one day.

[Flintlock76]

Overmod

The big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics.  When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'.

Actually, it was the 1980 Moscow Summer Olympics Carter boycotted, due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.  And the US wasn't the only country involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott#:~:text=These%20included%20Japan%20and%20West,also%20boycotted%20the%20Games%20entirely.

Needless to say, the Russians were  at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics, or there wouldn't have been the "Miracle on Ice."

[MMLDelete]

Flintlock76

 

 

Overmod

The big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics.  When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'.

 

 

Actually, it was the 1980 Moscow Summer Olympics Carter boycotted, due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.  And the US wasn't the only country involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott#:~:text=These%20included%20Japan%20and%20West,also%20boycotted%20the%20Games%20entirely.

Needless to say, the Russians were  at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics, or there wouldn't have been the "Miracle on Ice."

 

Correct.

[MMLDelete]

Larry, thanks for linking that schedule. It was very interseting to see that.

Are you guys now called Adirondack Railroad again (without the "Scenic")?

[tree68]

Lithonia Operator

Are you guys now called Adirondack Railroad again (without the "Scenic")?

Yep - a little rebranding.  New herald, too.

[Fred M Cain]

Shrike Arghast

https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Work-begins-on-track-removal-for-34-mile-15668846.php

<SNIP>

In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today. 

 

Well, in this particular case, it looks like the State had title to the ROW and the rail line.  So, that leaves little room for legal maneuvering.  It would be entirely different if the State had seized the property from a private enterprise and torn the track out but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

 

Since it was state-owned, that should've left room for residents to petition their state reps and urge them to keep the line for future rail service.  Sadly, it doesn't appear that that happened.

 

It also sounds like they are at least preserving a 45 mile section of rail line.  Will that 45 mile section have a connection to another rail line or will it be isolated?

 

Regards,

Fred M. Cain

[Overmod]

Fred M Cain

Well, in this particular case, it looks like the State had title to the ROW and the rail line.  So, that leaves little room for legal maneuvering.

Read through the threads here and on RyPN carefully.  The "legal maneuvering" that's important will not be State 'ownership', it will be reversion once the 'transportation corridor' is no longer a railroad, with actual track.  

It would be entirely different if the State had seized the property from a private enterprise and torn the track out but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Wouldn't have been any different regarding prospective title to the ROW...

Since it was state-owned, that should've left room for residents to petition their state reps and urge them to keep the line for future rail service.  Sadly, it doesn't appear that that happened.

It seemed pretty clear during the proceedings that very few actually 'residing' in the 34-mile corridor south of Lake Placid cared to 'urge' anyone to 'keep the line for rail service.'  I expect to see whether residents in fact want any kind of transportation corridor during the years before the trail stops being 'snowmobile-only'...