THis case has been simmering since it happened in June of 2018. In the case, there has been a Federal Judge who issued a Stop Work Order on the ROW brush mitigation work by the D&S RR. And apparently, a second Stop Work order was also issued for bridge repairs due to flooding in the affected area of the ROW, at the request of the USFS.
There has also been a 'filing' on behalf of the Defendants in the case {D&SRR and American Heritige Rwys- a Fla Corp.]. [It is a PDF that comprises about 14 pages.]
See linked @ https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/USvDurangoSilvertonRR-mtd.pdf
It is interesting, that in the Introduction and Background section there is an allusion that the plaintiffs knew of the drought conditions that existed in June of 2018 and 'essentially, allowed the railroad ro continue to operate'.
Then while searching and reading I found a linked site, from a local in the Siverton area that makes the case for similar conditions of the 2018 [416 Fire] and the Missionary Ridge Fire of 2002, as well as the 1879 fire [Lime Creek Burn?] Which seems to bring into context the history of fires in the area of the SW part of Colorado. Just my 2 cents.
See linked @ https://riveroflostsouls.com/2018/06/05/the-416-fire-and-memories-of-2002-and-1879/
Another issue underlaying this whole situation of "...My lawyer can whip your lawyer, thingy..." are the 'politics'; it seems we just cannot eacape that this year.
My main reason for bringing this up is there has seemingly been little to no movement in magazine stories, or shudder, media? I think this would be a subject of interest on this Forum???
I haven't read the linked documents yet, but why is there no interest in the mainline media or any other news outlets concerning this? They don't care. As far as they're concerned Durango may as well be on the dark side of the Moon.
The railfans and railfan press certainly cares, and I'm sure the local press in Durango cares, maybe even in the rest of Colorado as well, but that's all brother.
I'll light those liks up for you Sam, it'll make it easier for all.
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/USvDurangoSilvertonRR-mtd.pdf
https://riveroflostsouls.com/2018/06/05/the-416-fire-and-memories-of-2002-and-1879/
.
Yes, isn't that a "bone of contention" right now? Ostensibly the D&S and it's right-of-way and structures pertaining to the same are under the jurisdiction of the FRA and the USFS has no business telling the railroad what they can or can't do with their own property. At least that's how I understand it. Maybe I understand wrong.
At any rate there's no "dueling agencys," FRA versus USFS, in play right now, at least not that I'm aware of.
Get the feeling that this will devolve into an Adirondack Scenic Railroad situation of the trail interests and the let it rot interests; with the Forest Service thrown in the create more obfuscation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I suspect that the lack of public interest, if you will, is because a lot of people just don't know or care (there's a railroad there?), combined with those who would just love to see the railroad gone because it's a blemish on the landscape.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I agree with Larry that, when all the beans are lined up, the railroad is very teensy spuds. And distant, and not universally approved of. Smoke, fires, creosoted timbers....egads!!
I do tend to see this more from the forestry's point of view. What happens on private property has to be consonant with local, state, and federal laws in terms of land use, mitigation, environmental protection, and waters management. For example, here on Vancouver Island, there are scads of waterfront properties. Their value rises by many tens of thou if the view is stupendous. But, one must not cut trees on the littoral unless one has an environmental assessment first, AND approval from Fisheries and Oceans (so many local streams have salmon runs annually). Yet, each year, the local paper reports of Bill Such 'n Such fined $40K for 'improvements' to their property, while the next year same property sells for $400K more than its last listing.
selector Yet, each year, the local paper reports of Bill Such 'n Such fined $40K for 'improvements' to their property, while the next year same property sells for $400K more than its last listing.
I guess Bill Such 'n Such figured that $40,000 fine was just part of the cost of doing business.
What's a five figure fine compared to a six figure profit?
Additional Note: A couple of 'issues' regarding the 416 Fire jumped out whle reading some of the available materials, on-line; regarding the origin of the 416 Fire.
[Note: link to Thompson's Blog] @ https://riveroflostsouls.com/2018/06/05/the-416-fire-and-memories-of-2002-and-1879/
A.) From the entry, in Mr. Johnathan P. Thompson's Blog: [;Mr.Thompson indicated he was a resident of the Sikverton area.] FTB:"...The cause of the 416 Fire remains unknown. Embers from the coal-fired narrow gauge train that travels between Durango and Silverton are a fire hazard, yet the US Forest Service has reported the ignition point as being in the right of way of Highway 550, meaning the fire just as easily could have been started by a motorist’s tossed cigarette butt. In any event, the railroad and the tourism economy that depends on it will be affected. Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge RR officials say they won’t run the train until June 10 at the earliest, and after that will use a diesel locomotive — to the displeasure of authenticity-seeking passengers. (UPDATE 6/6: InciWeb continues to list fire cause as “unknown,” but the coordinates it gives for the fire, and witness accounts, indicate that the fire started near the railroad tracks, not long after the train passed, far from Hwy 550, putting the train at the top of the list of potential culprits..." [emphasis added, mine S.]
B.) The other thing was that since the 416 Fire was in June 2018; The USFS has not published any results of their 'investigation' and as noted in the Court Filing, has not filed 'discovery' documents with the Defendants. And, the USFS has failed to respond to FOIA requests from the Defendants. Two years and no response in regards to their investigation? WHY?
Also, the underlined entries in the Blog of J. Thompson certain seems to lay a cause for the 416 fire; from a passing vehicle on hwy 550 (possibly, a discarded cigarette?).
Certainly, the D&SNGRR is certainly, a large 'target' in that area; and it would not be unheard of, for a legal action to place the blame, and fine on what could certainly, be classsed as "low hanging fruit".
Did find one story re: the D&SNGRR attempting to change their paradigm for operation in that area: Article in The Denver Post -Regarding the conversion from coal to oil firing on the #493 { and a couple of nice photos with the article}
See linked @ https://www.denverpost.com/2020/02/24/durango-silverton-narrow-gauge-railroad-coal-oil/
But no media stories regarding the purchase of the 4 MLW Diesels from White Pass & Yukon RR for use on the D&S line. Just the TRAINS Magazine story.
See link @ https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/04/14-durango--silverton-buys-white-pass--yukon-diesels
That would seem to be a couple of real efforts to mitigate the potential spark issue.
samfp1943That would seem to be a couple of real efforts to mitigate the potential spark issue.
I am probably being over-paranoid but I see 'the fix being in' to find a villain with sufficiently little public support who can be sued for reparations to give all the victims of the fire a sense of 'closure'. It is hard to imagine that with so much money on the table there's much concern for the existing Durango and Silverton organization...
I have read on other outlets that housing developements, upscale housing developements, are beginning to appear along the tracks. This is starting to bring opposition to the railroad being there.
Just what they, or any similar operation, doesn't need. A small, but vocal opposition with resources (money) to make their voices even louder to the politicians.
Jeff
jeffhergertI have read on other outlets that housing developements, upscale housing developements, are beginning to appear along the tracks. This is starting to bring opposition to the railroad being there.
Indeed - for several reasons. The constant of "I didn't know trains went by here and complaining of the noise," smoke, the passengers peering in your windows, and one they probably don't cite - it brings the "great unwashed" into town...
tree68 jeffhergert I have read on other outlets that housing developements, upscale housing developements, are beginning to appear along the tracks. This is starting to bring opposition to the railroad being there. Indeed - for several reasons. The constant of "I didn't know trains went by here and complaining of the noise," smoke, the passengers peering in your windows, and one they probably don't cite - it brings the "great unwashed" into town...
jeffhergert I have read on other outlets that housing developements, upscale housing developements, are beginning to appear along the tracks. This is starting to bring opposition to the railroad being there.
EuclidThere is a small group of neighborhood residents living along the railroad who have voluntarily assumed the mission of protecting their property from fires started by D&S locomotives.
Silly people. Not wanting their houses burned to the ground. How dare they...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
EuclidThat or something similar is what a lot of people say, but I am not convinced that they are right. There are also a lot of people who say they railroad was there first, and thus the Forest Service cannot tell them what they can and cannot do with their own property.
There's a lot of companies that predate EPA, OSHA, DOT, and other alphabet groups. They can't just run around ignoring all regulations becuase the name of the company existed for 100 years.
I don't think Euclid was critisizing the homeowners Zug, far from it.
It's a very wise thing they're doing. If I had a house out in the boonies far away from any fire department support I'd have plenty of firefighting gear on hand myself. Whether there was a railroad nearby, steam or otherwise (Diesels can get pretty flamey too!) would have nothing to do with it.
Zug, tell me you weren't in this thing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvMl8LUzQnk
Flintlock76 Diesels can get pretty flamey too!
Diesels can get pretty flamey too!
They're about to experience an ALCO starting up a mountain grade. If they thought coal smoke was bad they ain't seen 'nothin yet!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
At least the D&S never pulled anything like THIS!
Chinese New Year?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqb1x21hWg
Flintlock76At least the D&S never pulled anything like THIS!
I suspect I was pretty close when I pulled into the "North Pole" one night with one of our F units. Apparently I was cleaning out a lot of carbon, resulting in an interesting shower of sparks...
Flintlock76 Zug, tell me you weren't in this thing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvMl8LUzQnk
adkrr64 Flintlock76 Zug, tell me you weren't in this thing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvMl8LUzQnk OK, couple of questions here. 1. What type of engine failure causes something like this? 2. Wouldn't pushing the fuel cut off switch have stopped, or at least limited, the fire? Or is all that smoke and fire from fuel already in the prime mover? The crew men seemed quite calm as they exited the cab. Better than I would have been. And after watching this, what should FDL stand for? Fire ??? ???
Just your 'ordinary' diesel runaway. Diesel engines are compression ignition engines - virtually any petroleum can be ignited in a compression ignition engine - as long as you have 'some form of fuel'. air and compression you will have ignition for the power stroke.
Runaway diesels happen mostly happen when through some defect in the engine, the engine begin to run on the lubrication oil. Even through the Emergency Fuel Shut Off has been activated there is somewhere near 250-300 GALLONS of lubricating old in each railraod diesel.
The normal way to shut down a runaway diesel is to block off the air supply - which I suspect would be difficult in this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLRfil14ETI
Balt has it right about how a diesel runaway works. A common source of the oil is a blown seal in the turbocharger (most turbo bearings are lubricated and cooled with engine crankcase oil), which allows lube oil to enter the intake manifold.
EMD and Detroit 2-stroke diesels can run away in another way, the 'full rack' runaway. The rack (control arm for the unit injectors) can become stuck in a high or full fuel position, causing the engine to speed up without any control from the governor, and if left it will soon exceed the maximum safe RPM. Even one stuck injector can potentially cause this, as the rack tends to pull to the full fuel position when the engine is started.
Detroits have a mechanical fuel pump which is directly driven by the engine, wheras EMD locomotive engine have an electric pump, and also have a large handle (the layshaft) on the end of the rack, sometimes pulling back hard on this is enough to close the rack and kill it.
But blocking the air supply is the only sure fire way to kill a runaway diesel. The only question is how.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRaqgab0_w
Well, since we're talking about runaways maybe it's time to take a break from the seriousness for a bit and relax.
Have fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMufLXrFIg8
Keep In mind that a large compression-ignition engine will run on carbureted oil under certain conditions -- there needs to be the right combination of promotion and flame propagation. The 95-odd percent of natural gas in a dual-fuel-fired locomotive diesel 'counts' as a carbureted fuel in this sense. Such an engine does not require fuel injection to make combustion power.
This means that a Diesel engine that has EFI (and hence shuts off injection to stop the engine) will happily continue to run after full commanded shutoff, both of the injection FADEC and the fuel pumps, if there is unrestricted intake air and an adequate source of oil.
What happens in this sort of event is that one of the turbocharger oil seals fails catastrophically, letting lube oil spray into the turbocharger's compressor (and be atomized finely as it passes through there). This oil happily burns in compression ignition, quite possibly overfueling the engine to 'runaway' high speed since the governor is not controlling "fuel feed" at all. Meanwhile in all probability lube oil is also running into the turbocharger turbine, vaporizing there into what is basically oil smoke. So you have an engine reaching a balancing speed of what may be more than 1050rpm, with burning-of-Rome smoke effects. Only interrupting the flow of combustion air through the filters and intake tract, or putting an enormous load on the engine or seizure of internal parts due to lube-oil starvation will stop an engine in this condition.
Now until there is an ignition source adjacent to the smoke plume, you get this towering eruption of mixed black and white smoke. The turbo interstate bearing in particular is not getting full piling, and spinning faster than designed is likely to heat up to the point the oil flow in the exhaust torches, at which point you get a stack fire like the one pictured.
If the intake air can't be interrupted or have something substituted for it, the logical 'end' will be failure of the turbocharger followed by seizure of 'enough' of the engine due to inadequate lube oil. I doubt much attempt to put the fire out spraying foam at the stack will work; spraying displacing foam at the air intake, preferably with enough nozzle shaping and pressure to penetrate the air filters, is likelier (and while it would ruin some engine components, it may leave more 'rebuildable' than if things proceed to full seizure.
AKA Californians
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