The question is why some on here seem to think having a companion dog disqualified a guy from running an engine safely? A guy grossly overweight is OK, but not someone who depends on that dog for emotional support ? Double standard and evidence of bias.
charlie hebdoThe question is why some on here seem to think having a companion dog disqualified a guy from running an engine safely? A guy grossly overweight is OK, but not someone who depends on that dog for emotional support ? Double standard and evidence of bias.
Just trying to understand what 'holes in his personality' that the dog fills that would make his performance safe and up to par with the dog as opposed to being unsafe and below par without the animal.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDJust trying to understand what 'holes in his personality' that the dog fills that would make his performance safe and up to par with the dog as opposed to being unsafe and below par without the animal.
I'm guessing you'd have to go to medical school to learn that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
charlie hebdo The question is why some on here seem to think having a companion dog disqualified a guy from running an engine safely? A guy grossly overweight is OK, but not someone who depends on that dog for emotional support ? Double standard and evidence of bias.
zugmann BaltACD Just trying to understand what 'holes in his personality' that the dog fills that would make his performance safe and up to par with the dog as opposed to being unsafe and below par without the animal. I'm guessing you'd have to go to medical school to learn that.
BaltACD Just trying to understand what 'holes in his personality' that the dog fills that would make his performance safe and up to par with the dog as opposed to being unsafe and below par without the animal.
I concur - I suspect UP have their doctors involved in their decisions in this matter.
All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.CarletonAll this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains.
Operated by support animals for kibble and bits.
I thought the line of thinking was using trained monkeys?
BaltACD charlie hebdo The question is why some on here seem to think having a companion dog disqualified a guy from running an engine safely? A guy grossly overweight is OK, but not someone who depends on that dog for emotional support ? Double standard and evidence of bias. Just trying to understand what 'holes in his personality' that the dog fills that would make his performance safe and up to par with the dog as opposed to being unsafe and below par without the animal.
You will have to trust the experts (psychologists) on that. There are thousands of cases of brave wounded veterans who function quite well with at least some time daily with their dogs. I saw a fair amount about that and I am a professional. You aren't nor ever were an engineer.
BaltACD D.Carleton All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains. Operated by support animals for kibble and bits.
D.Carleton All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains.
You seem to have some nasty animosity towards support dogs and/or maybe folks with PTSD.
A question I don't think anyone's brought up yet, but will the in-cab environment be safe for the dog? I'm thinking about noise levels, exhaust fumes, or any other things that might be detremental to the dogs health and well being.
People do put up with things that an animal might not want to.
Flintlock76 A question I don't think anyone's brought up yet, but will the in-cab environment be safe for the dog? I'm thinking about noise levels, exhaust fumes, or any other things that might be detremental to the dogs health and well being. People do put up with things that an animal might not want to.
I was wondering about that also, specifically the noise level. But the guy must know the dog well enough to know how it would likely react. It's also possible he (in cahoots with a sympathetic conductor) has already had the dog along for a ride and observed how it did.
I find myself rooting for the man and the dog, not the company. But I'd agree this is a thorny situation. I can see both sides.
zugmann rdamon I think Jeff's comments about being offered a non road job at the same pay will be the result. How does that work when someone is hired as an agreement employee with seniority, though?
rdamon I think Jeff's comments about being offered a non road job at the same pay will be the result.
How does that work when someone is hired as an agreement employee with seniority, though?
Probably something like the "light duty" offered by the company when unable to fully work their normal assignment after having surgery or some other medical reason. I don't know if it's the same system wide, but our neck of the woods offers up to 30 days a year. They have them printing out paperwork, keeping the printers filled with paper, etc.
Maybe they could train the dog to sniff out hot boxes, too.
Jeff
charlie hebdo BaltACD D.Carleton All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains. Operated by support animals for kibble and bits. You seem to have some nasty animosity towards support dogs and/or maybe folks with PTSD.
So says mr. sarcasm - your screen name says it all.
I don't really care about the presence of dogs in locomotives, one way or the other.
But if the argument to justify having the animal present is going to be based upon the engineer somehow "not being whole" unless the animal is present, then I believe that the railroad is opening itself up to additional liability for placing such an employee in a position where the safety of others can potentially be at risk.
You get into a real murky area of having to establish the dog's competency as well as the engineer's in the moments immediately leading up to whatever incident might be litigated.
I don't think the RR's want any part of that.
Plus, is it really humane to place a dog in such an environment for extended periods? Too often I think we focus on what is in the best interest of the human, with little compassion for what the animal is expected to endure.
Flintlock76A question I don't think anyone's brought up yet, but will the in-cab environment be safe for the dog? I'm thinking about noise levels, exhaust fumes, or any other things that might be detremental to the dogs health and well being.
Good point, what happens if the dog suddenly enters a distress condition, potentially distracting the engineer at a crucial moment?
As an employer, I would want no part of that. (exposure)
One thing that hasn't been identified - what kind of engineer assignments is the individual seeking the support animal for?
A 8 hour yard assignment - no overtime and at home every night?
A road job in pool service - first in - first out during all hours of the day and night; 12 hours on duty occasionally HOS on line of road and taking 14 -16 hours or more to get to the destination terminal, tying up at the away from home lodging facility with the service animal; staying away from home for 16 - 24 - 36 hours or more before being called on duty to go home. A life that could be considered 'animal cruelty' if it wasn't happening to humans.
And what happens if you die on hours of service out in the boonies, and the Renzenberger guy who comes to fetch you is allergic to dogs?
zugmannI'm guessing you'd have to go to medical school to learn that.
How about a nice stuffed Teddy Bear? Is there anything in the rules against Teddy Bears?
BaltACDI suspect this situation has been created by the 'mandatory promotion' provisions that were written into the contracts that apply to Conductors in the 1990's and 21st Century.
Now that's something else I have trouble wrapping my head around. "Up, or out!"
I can understand the military having that policy, you can't have 45 year old privates lead by 50 year old lieutenants, those days are LONG gone. And I've heard some law firms have that policy as well, that is, if you aren't made a partner within a certain amount of time you're history, but what practical purpose does that policy serve with a railroad? I don't know of any other business that has a policy like that. Maybe someone can explain it to me?
BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD D.Carleton All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains. Operated by support animals for kibble and bits. You seem to have some nasty animosity towards support dogs and/or maybe folks with PTSD. So says mr. sarcasm - your screen name says it all.
So says the guy with the childish footnotes/cartoons. You can't respond with anything beyond snark because what I said is true. zug operates locomotives. You didn't. Joe McMahon operated them for many years and he had you pegged correctly as a desk jockey.
Question: As I understand it, this engineer has a disability that presents various symptoms on an unpredictable basis, and the point of the dog is to prevent the symptoms of the disability from activating. What exactly are the possible symptoms of the engineer’s disability?
Say this engineer was running a train without the dog, and the symptoms were to activate. What effect would these symptoms have on the engineer’s ability to properly run the train?
Flintlock76what practical purpose does that policy serve with a railroad? I don't know of any other business that has a policy like that. Maybe someone can explain it to me?
Not by any means proposing to be an expert. But once at a NS hiring session it was explained to me by an interviewer that it is a tool to negate seniority.
You might otherwise get a conductor who get's a nice, cushy assignment, with enough seniority to be untouchable, and he just happily rots there for 30 years.
I welcome anyone with actual first-hand experience in the trade to confirm or refute that, along with their personal observations....but that's the way it was told to me.
Additionally, if you have a tradition of firing engineers over petty violations, it makes sense to maintain a ready reserve, in waiting. I don't think there is an iron clad requirement that you have to become an engineer immediately after graduating the academy. I think that many return to the role of conductor, despite their qualification to be an engineer. They become a "super sub" of sorts
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD D.Carleton All this will do is drive us one step closer to autonomous trains. Operated by support animals for kibble and bits. You seem to have some nasty animosity towards support dogs and/or maybe folks with PTSD. So says mr. sarcasm - your screen name says it all. So says the guy with the childish footnotes/cartoons. You can't respond with anything beyond snark because what I said is true. zug operates locomotives. You didn't. Joe McMahon operated them for many years and he had you pegged correctly as a desk jockey.
Sorry your satire is falling flat. Sorry you see yourself in my GIF's
Convicted One Flintlock76 what practical purpose does that policy serve with a railroad? I don't know of any other business that has a policy like that. Maybe someone can explain it to me? Not by any means proposing to be an expert. But once at a NS hiring session it was explained to me by an interviewer that it is a tool to negate seniority. You might otherwise get a conductor who get's a nice, cushy assignment, with enough seniority to be untouchable, and he just happily rots there for 30 years. I welcome anyone with actual first-hand experience in the trade to confirm or refute that, along with their personal observations....but that's the way it was told to me. Additionally, if you have a tradition of firing engineers over petty violations, it makes sense to maintain a ready reserve, in waiting. I don't think there is an iron clad requirement that you have to become an engineer immediately after graduating the academy. I think that many return to the role of conductor, despite their qualification to be an engineer. They become a "super sub" of sorts
Flintlock76 what practical purpose does that policy serve with a railroad? I don't know of any other business that has a policy like that. Maybe someone can explain it to me?
It's a way to ensure there is a supply of engineers.
Originally, engineers hired out directly into engine service. Usually as a fireman, but in later years into a training program. I believe it was the 1972 contract that said preference in hiring for engine service would go to current trainmen. One could still hire out of the street if there wasn't enough trainmen willing to go into engine service. The 1985 contracts required all train service employees hired after that date would have to go to engine service when called to do so.
Going into engine service is still somewhat voluntary. When they put out a call for engine service, it's still bid on a seniority basis. As long as enough trainmen fill the open slots, it's possible to remain a trainman and let younger (seniority wise) people go around you into engine service. Out of my 1998 trainman's class, there are still 2 or 3 who didn't go into engine service. I went as soon as I was able (2004 date) and there have been many engineers set up since then. Those out of my class are pretty safe in not being forced to engine service. But, if the need arose, they could be forced to do so per the contract.
Even if they needed to force trainmen to engine service, my understanding is that they will force the youngest trainmen first. So my trainmen classmates are still pretty safe.
That's how it works for us. Zug can say if it works the same for his employer.
Now once you're an engineer, someplaces will allow you to set yourself back if you can't hold an engineer's assignment within your home terminal or zone. This is partly because many seniority districts have been expanded over the years. So if engineer Smith can't work an engineer's job at home, he doesn't have to chase his seniority and work 200 miles away as an engineer. He can set himself back to conductor, even though there might be junior engineers working at that 200 mile away location.
We had that arrangement until a junior conductor at a terminal on the other side of the seniority district complained. He searched the actual contracts and found the practice of engineer's setting themselves back was not covered. It had been done for years, but wasn't codified in the agreements. (The junior conductor was tired of getting bumped off a fairly easy, high paying assignment by engineers who set themselves back when they couldn't hold that terminal as an engineer.) Now engineers have to exhaust all engineer assignments on the seniority district before being set back. This means some possibly working 100 to 200 miles from home, usually the least desirable/lowest paying job with no lodging provided because it's a "seniority move" not a forced move. Some guys have experienced being forced (excuse me, exercising their seniority to the only job they can hold), getting to the terminal and being bumped. Then going to the next engineer's job to open, arriving and again being bumped before working. There have been a few people who had enough of the bouncing around and have quit the railroad because of it.
I think eventually, the railroads want everyone dual engine/train service qualified. Some say they'll only have one big extra board, but I think they'll still maintain the different engine and train service boards. You'll be able to work either side of the cab depending on your seniority. I know some small railroads work that way. I also know some who've said if they ever went to that, they wouldn't mind working as a conductor during the warm months and an engineer during the cold ones.
BaltACDA 8 hour yard assignment - no overtime and at home every night?
A rarity in the post-PSR world.
Thanks Jeff!
Would most yard jobs be quieter ? Not much horn blowing and lower engine speeds ?
blue streak 1 Would most yard jobs be quieter ? Not much horn blowing and lower engine speeds ?
Depends on how hard they work the engine kicking cars. A couple of our yards they are kicking cars uphill.
zugmann BaltACD A 8 hour yard assignment - no overtime and at home every night? A rarity in the post-PSR world.
BaltACD A 8 hour yard assignment - no overtime and at home every night?
More likely on Yard assignments than Pool road assignments. PSR world or not. I was trying to be kind, knowing that PSR is not.
I suspect, in view of PSR and the carrier efforts to reduce manpower counts that the normal yard day is now 12 hours. Two crews to give a job 24 hour coverage.
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