-or "If you try to impress, you will end with excess , ( and may be left with a 'mess') " . Did those who approved of this massive edifice pause to consider the inordinate future expense of cleaning , maintaining, and heating this behemoth?; because the basic function of a train station is for a passenger to enter, purchase a ticket , and board the train, why massive Greek columns and pediments?.When the inevitable demolition arrived I presume some who were "present at the creation" reflected "I told you so!. Because much of Manhattan constuction is "verticle" , consider what could have been constructed over a far less spacious station.
aboard!
Ah PATTBAA, me old son, you're thinking like a 21st Century man and not a 19th Century one! Here's the thing, when New York's Pennsylvania Station was built at the turn of the 20th Century railroads were the premiere industry in America, millions were employed by the railroads and there were few American families that didn't have a relative who worked for a railroad. And so...
The grand architecture of big city railroad stations was designed to impress, and impress they did. "Here we are, the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad! (Or insert your favorite.) Our tracks run from the Atlantic to the Mississippi and all important points in between! The nation depends on us for it's commerce and travel! When we speak the business world listens! We tunneled the Hudson River just because we could! The State Senate in Pennsylvania ends its sessions with the statement 'Is there anything of interest or of importance to the Pennsylvania Railroad?' And now you, ladies and gentlemen, are part of our world, and this magnificent ediface welcomes you to it!"
Get it now? They could have built cheap, but they didn't. They wanted to impress with their size, power, and permanance, could afford to do so, and did so. A grand train station in a big city was as much a tool for selling the railroad as a magazine or newspaper ad.
And that great Pennsylvania Station eventually died because people stopped taking the trains. It couldn't earn it's keep anymore. Pure and simple. And who could have forseen that in the year 1900? No one.
Understand a bit better now?
Well said, Wayne! If there is one good thing to come of it, is that Grand Central Terminal was saved, preserved and restored. A heritage law was enacted in New York that actually had some teeth. Said law was helped along by Jackie Onassis, as I understand. There are heritage laws here in Toronto but they mainly "ask" developers to at least save the facade of historic buildings and they sometimes do. Often they don't.
PATTBAAIf you try to impress, you will end with excess , ( and may be left with a 'mess') " . Did those who approved of this massive edifice pause to consider the inordinate future expense of cleaning , maintaining, and heating this behemoth?;
Welcome to the forums.
As has already been stated, the times were different.
Compare it to today's new airports, especially some of the ones in the Far East. They are much more than simply a place to buy a ticket and get on the plane.
York1 John
Thanks 54! And it's sad but true, Grand Central Terminal lived because Pennsylvania Station died, and with its passing woke people up. They learned that something that seemed so permanent wasn't so permanent after all, and what is won't necessarily always be. When you come right down to it it caused the same kind of heartbreak any of us get when a favorite ice cream stand, burger joint, pizza parlor, diner, amusement park, or anything else that's a cherished memory meets the wrecking ball or bulldozer.
And permanence was the standard for those old stations, they didn't build them with a future tear-down date in mind, they built them for the ages.
And God bless Jackie Onassis for her high-profile influence!
Little more is needed to understand this than a copy of Droege's 1916 book on passenger terminals and stations, helpfully reprinted by Kalmbach around 1970 (in the same effort that gave us the Articulated Locomotives reprint).
I do suspect there was little regard for long-term maintenance, but most of the structure was made of low-maintenance stone or large amounts of easily-repainted structural steel framing. I suspect it was designed so that its various windows were easily cleaned of the astounding amount of New York soot and dirt ... Penn was still generally white when torn down, while my whole childhood both GCT and Rockefeller Center were black buildings.
Keep in mind that had Young not shot himself Grand Central would have come down before Penn, probably replaced by a nearly-as-iconic building, a then-young I.M.Pei's Hyperboloid. In a sense the very size and removal difficulty of Penn Station kept it in its dank, Heineken-tinged majesty long past the date cost-effective development of its air rights would have taken place; I'm still a little surprised that a sports venue and not much higher towers is what was built over where you scuttled in and out like a rat.
I would opine that buildings of that era were built, not designed (as in today's just-barely-able-to-stand-in-a-stiff-wind edifices), and tearing them down wasn't on anyone's calendar. As mentioned, they were monuments, intended to last forever.
Many do still stand - Detroit's MC station, Scranton's Lackawanna station, Utica's Union Station (NYC, DLW, O&W) to name a very few. The Utica station is a first cousin to GCT.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Transportation hubs of the 'leading metodof transportation' at the time of the construction of the terminal in major population centers are far from just a place to come to and buy a ticket and get on the form of transportation to go elsewhere and eventually return.
Cities view thei transportation terminals as showplaces to display the wealth and culture of the location. Go BIG or go home.
The loss of Penn Station in New York was the genesis of the entire historical preservation movement - the movement that saved Grand Central Terminal and thousands upon thousands of other buildings all across the cournty - buildings that are significant statements on each area's culture at the time the buildings were created. If we don't preserve our culture it will be lost forever.
The young have no appreciation for culture until they are no longer young and what they had previously taken for granted no longer exists in reality but they can only find it in their minds. Culture lost.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
How mighty was the Pennsylvania? I just remembered a story.
Around the turn of the 20th Century when Alexander Cassatt ( The brother of artist Mary Cassatt, by the way) was president of the PRR he received a letter from an irate commuter on the Main Line outside of Philadelphia complaining of a late train. Mr. Cassatt sent the commuter a letter promising a late train to that station would never, ever, happen again!
Then after having the letter sent he ordered the station to be torn down!
Is it true? I don't know. You tell me.
That reminds me of a story about the Great Northern. A customer in a sleeper was bitten by bedbugs and wrote a letter to the president of the company. He got a reply. The reply was a letter apologising for his trouble and paper-clipped to it were inter-office memos and such like. Also clipped to it was a note from the president saying, "Send this S.O.B the bedbug letter." I don't know if that's really true but still.
Regarding historical preservation, in London the facade of Euston Station was demolished at about the same time as Penn. There was an arch over the road that approached the station and it was torn down. There are pictures of it in books. On either side of where the arch was are two small buildings called for some British reason, "follies." Both are now pubs. The remains of the arch were dumped in a canal and recently were recovered. They now lay on the lawn outside of the station and maybe the arch will be restored. As it is, Euston is not exactly a nice place to wait for a train unlike the nearby King's Cross and St. Pancras, both of which are spectacular.
Flintlock76 aboard! Ah PATTBAA, me old son, you're thinking like a 21st Century man and not a 19th Century one! Here's the thing, when New York's Pennsylvania Station was built at the turn of the 20th Century railroads were the premiere industry in America, millions were employed by the railroads and there were few American families that didn't have a relative who worked for a railroad. And so... The grand architecture of big city railroad stations was designed to impress, and impress they did. "Here we are, the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad! (Or insert your favorite.) Our tracks run from the Atlantic to the Mississippi and all important points in between! The nation depends on us for it's commerce and travel! When we speak the business world listens! We tunneled the Hudson River just because we could! The State Senate in Pennsylvania ends its sessions with the statement 'Is there anything of interest or of importance to the Pennsylvania Railroad?' And now you, ladies and gentlemen, are part of our world, and this magnificent ediface welcomes you to it!" Get it now? They could have built cheap, but they didn't. They wanted to impress with their size, power, and permanance, could afford to do so, and did so. A grand train station in a big city was as much a tool for selling the railroad as a magazine or newspaper ad. And that great Pennsylvania Station eventually died because people stopped taking the trains. It couldn't earn it's keep anymore. Pure and simple. And who could have forseen that in the year 1900? No one. Understand a bit better now?
You say welcome and then post a very condescending rant to the new guy?
One would think it possible to discuss the relative aesthetic merits of architecture minus the sneakiness?
Flintlock76How mighty was the Pennsylvania? I just remembered a story.
"With the PRR having no further business - the Pennsylvania House is now adjourned for the day"
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Oh for God's sake Charlie I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was trying to be informative and tell a fun and entertaining story at the same time!
Only the original poster can tell if he was insulted or condescended to and so far we haven't heard back from him. I hope we do.
At any rate PATTBAA's question sat on the Forum for three days before anyone bothered to give him the courtesy of a response, and the person was me. If you had an answer for him why didn't you say anything?
Or were you just throwing a bomb at me hoping I'd shoot my morning coffee through my nose when I read your missive?
54light15, back in the 1950's, the sister of my best friend was a medical student at McGill University in Canada and would use the NYNH&H RR's Montrealier to return to her home in Riverside, CT. She did get that letter with note attached after she complained to the railroad about being bitten by bedbugs in her berth. I know that there are other similar tales with other lines, but I do know this one is true. By the way, the passenger terminal in Portland, Maine was torn down in the middle of the night by a developer which resulted in very tough zoning restrictions on historic buildings being removed or altered...it is still a very plain strip mall with no redeeming features.
zugmann Flintlock76 How mighty was the Pennsylvania? I just remembered a story. "With the PRR having no further business - the Pennsylvania House is now adjourned for the day"
Flintlock76 How mighty was the Pennsylvania? I just remembered a story.
So it WAS true! Wow.
Flintlock76 Oh for God's sake Charlie I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was trying to be informative and tell a fun and entertaining story at the same time! Only the original poster can tell if he was insulted or condescended to and so far we haven't heard back from him. I hope we do. At any rate PATTBAA's question sat on the Forum for three days before anyone bothered to give him the courtesy of a response, and the person was me. If you had an answer for him why didn't you say anything? Or were you just throwing a bomb at me hoping I'd shoot my morning coffee through my nose when I read your missive?
You can't take any criticism, apparently. If you read your post again , unless you are tone deaf, you would see the condescending tone you decided to take, as though the OP were some totally uniformed (young) person and you are setting him or her straight. Unfortunately I'm not able to quote specific passages in your post, since I am using a phone and cut and pasting is impossible. Perhaps the OP has said nothing more because he or she felt dismissed.
I personally saw nothing condescending in Flintlock's reply when I first read it. I still don't see anything condescending when I read it a second time.
I can take critisism all right Charlie, and I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. But.
If you insist on looking for demons, devils, and dragons to slay when there aren't any I can't help you. I thought someone like yourself who was a student of aviation history and a big fan of classic aircraft would have had more of a sense of fun about things than you do. Be a perpetual sourpuss if you want. I'm done with trying to explain myself to you, but not with this topic.
I found Flintlock's reply to be quite friendly and humourous.
Thank you gentlemen, for your support!
Sorry to upset you. I appreciate architecture and good fun but I am also sure most on here will insist there was nothing off-key in your humor.
54light15Also clipped to it was a note from the president saying, "Send this S.O.B the bedbug letter."
I first heard this story about 1968 and thought it was enormously funny.
It turns out it's really Urban Folklore. According to Snopes, the "bedbug letter" story has been around at least since March of 1927 when it was printed (for the first time) in The New Yorker, although in that account it concerns water bugs being discovered in an apartment. Even in its first appearance in print it is termed a recurrent story.
Harry Truman told a similar "story" or anecdote about a Congressman receiving an angry or ignorant letter from one of his constituents. He returned it to the sender with an appended note saying, "Some damned fool wrote me this idiotic letter and signed your name to it. I think you ought to know." Or words to that effect.
Whether true or not, some stories are just so on-the-point that even if they're not true, we think they could be, or ought to be. That's how Urban Folklore works.
I think the old railroad stations have something in common with sports arena. Your football stadium doesn't have to be fancy, unless your competitor's stadium is.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The same goes for banks and department stores. Gas stations too, come to think about it from back in the day when they pumped the gas, checked the oil, washed your windshield and gave away free stuff like glassware. "Service Stations" they were called.
Murphy Siding I think the old railroad stations have something in common with sports arena. Your football stadium doesn't have to be fancy, unless your competitor's stadium is.
Railroads didn't threaten to move their station unless the city paid for the newer 'get ahead of the Jones' stadium like sports teams do.
It's not simply the big stuff like railroad stations or sports arenas.
I remember talking with an organ tuner c.2002 who finally was forced into both buying a cellphone and setting up a website for his business, even though he didn't want to do either. "Then why do it?" I asked.
"Because my competitors have them," he replied.
Lesson: Evolve or get run over.
BaltACDRailroads didn't threaten to move their station unless the city paid
Remember the old "Peru & Detroit". After the city of Peru built that little connector, and was rewarded with Wabash shops in the bargain. Setting off quite the mud slinging match between Peru and Logansport. All the Eel River line passenger stations between Chili and Logansport succumbed to the Jonses
Tale of two cities
Convicted One BaltACD Railroads didn't threaten to move their station unless the city paid Remember the old "Peru & Detroit". After the city of Peru built that little connector, and was rewarded with Wabash shops in the bargain. Setting off quite the mud slinging match between Peru and Logansport. All the Eel River line passenger stations between Chili and Logansport succumbed to the Jonses Tale of two cities
BaltACD Railroads didn't threaten to move their station unless the city paid
While railroads may move their lines a few miles one way or another. They don't move their 'line' from a Mississippi River location to a Pacific Coast loctation.
Even if they are no longer used as banks, when you drive thru a small town you can always tell which buildings were built to house a bank, because they are faced with marble or other stone, or are very ornate, or are bigger and more imposing than they have to be. This is done for the same reason large railroad statons are large and ornate and impressive, to project an image of solidity, wealth and power.
SALfan Even if they are no longer used as banks, when you drive thru a small town you can always tell which buildings were built to house a bank, because they are faced with marble or other stone, or are very ornate, or are bigger and more imposing than they have to be. This is done for the same reason large railroad statons are large and ornate and impressive, to project an image of solidity, wealth and power.
Some think those imposing banks built before, say 1960, were intended to convey safety to depositors in the days before the FDIC & FSLIC were created. You'll notice the bars that were once common in those banks, even in small towns, that could intimidate an innocent customer. Then in the 1960's we seemed to enter the era of banks as our friends; consequently the bars came down and the tellers no longer seemed to be quite so wary of us.
Institutions like banks, railroad stations, opera houses, and even high schools, in my opinion, ought to look imposing and reassuring; that they'll be there for a long time to come. Those are the things and symbols that make up a city's special look.
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