Intermodal swan song

[charlie hebdo]

oltmannd

Okay, sure.  Platooning, driverless, whatever.  RRs can drive labor productivity the same way.  One man crews.  Longer crew districts.  Automation of various places and operations like intermodal terminals.  

They can also electrify all sorts of machinery other than train operations including pickup and delivery dray, and become "energy source agnostic".

The trick is to get working on this stuff NOW, while you have the cash flow.  If you spend all your PSR generated cash by buying ice cream cones for shareholders, the game might be over before the ice cream starts to melt.

 

True.  Right now,  the UP main has a lot of container trains.  If integration with pickup and delivery can be expedited soon,  the losses of bulk cargoes like coal can be more than overcome. 

[Overmod]

charlie hebdo

RRs can drive labor productivity the same way.  One man crews.  Longer crew districts.  Automation of various places and operations like intermodal terminals.   They can also electrify all sorts of machinery other than train operations including pickup and delivery dray, and become "energy source agnostic".

The possibilities have been ever so much greater, and more interesting, and truthfully for many years.

Start by assuming little more than Kneiling's independently-propelled rakes of cars amenable to easy and cheap intermodal loading (or low-tare operation), and then extend it by the model proposed for the industrial trackage in central New Jersey using small-unit equipment (I believe their proposed equipment was the German CargoSpeed lightweight 'freight trolley' sort of equipment, nominally double-unit articulated, which could easily be adapted for hybrid or multimode power).  Then look for a moment at your 2040 blocking.  There is no objective technical reason why your 'blocks' could not be functionally reduced to aggregates of self-propelled and now self-guiding vehicles, travelling at any approximation of track speed as the equivalent of 'slip coaches' detach and attach themselves adaptively.  While it would be nice if large numbers of destinations were actively rail-capable, that is neither expedient or necessary in a truck-enabled world ... a short-distance, be-home-every-night world facilitating good driver living wage and working condition for the work that can't be cost-effectively made autonomous ... but now any number of 'small ramp' operations or even ad hoc pads become quick and direct intermodal transfer locations, rather than excuses to park hard-to-switch flats where someone might bumble up to them in time.  

Now as charlie hebdo noted earlier, coordinate ownership or assured control between a sufficient pool of yard and road tractor operators and the railroads involved.  Little more than the Uber code (likely available as IP far sooner than ttrraaffiicc's anticipated death of railroading!) would be needed to set up effective JIT intermodal transfer, almost regardless of special or emergent circumstances or even emergency conditions.  Traffic jam? divert on the fly to a known 'alternate route' for all concerned, and quickly implement the operation.

Now I confess I'm still 'with' Kneiling on this being something easier to set up and run 'agile' with operating entities on an 'iron ocean' access model, which is another of charlie hebdo's desiderata.  Here expect the necessary capital and operating scale to be less, and hidebound PSR blinders far less 'inoperative' than for present large railroads ... perhaps a return to the express-company model of manifest freight provision is a possibility?

The trick is to get working on this stuff NOW, while you have the cash flow.

Ain't it the truth... but also true is that future sources of capital, including 'populist' governments, will find that this is both more atomistic and more scalable than national high-outlay public conversion, and doesn't have that nasty s-word to confuse the sheep.  Merely legislating open access, in such a context, might go a long way both toward getting railroads to straighten up and fly better and toward making quality service via proper cybernetics and execution more 'mainstream' and 'default' behavior...

All the stuff to do this really existed (although not in robust or refined form) in the late '70s -- it is far easier and better today, and with the development of autonomous operation as a perceived cash cow, will only dramatically increase in coming years.  Any good team of college engineers in a contest can get you a reasonably good operating model; their coordination with econ and business students will likely make that reasonably cost-effective...

[Gramp]

Just saw 60 Minutes. Had a report on Tu Simple driverless truck tech. from Arizona. Have to be skeptical because it's 60 Minutes, but it sure was convincing. Addressed many of the issues discussed here on the forum. 

[Electroliner 1935]

Gramp

Just saw 60 Minutes. Had a report on Tu Simple driverless truck tech. from Arizona. Have to be skeptical because it's 60 Minutes, but it sure was convincing. Addressed many of the issues discussed here on the forum. 

And there was the interview with a truck driver who mentioned an experience where a state trooper was directing traffic with hand signals and wondered how a driverless truck could respond to such an anomaly. You or I could understand a gesture to go left or right but could the sensors? The driver didn't think so nor do I. 

[York1]

Electroliner 1935

You or I could understand a gesture to go left or right but could the sensors? The driver didn't think so nor do I. 

 

That's interesting, and something I hadn't thought of.

 

[tree68]

York1

That's interesting, and something I hadn't thought of.

I direct traffic at accidents quite a bit.  I certainly wouldn't look forward to that truck plowing through my scene. 

To add another twist - how will the self-driving truck handle the temporary detour I want it to take?

[BaltACD]

tree68

 

York1

That's interesting, and something I hadn't thought of. 

I direct traffic at accidents quite a bit.  I certainly wouldn't look forward to that truck plowing through my scene. 

To add another twist - how will the self-driving truck handle the temporary detour I want it to take?

I was towing from Jacksonville to Savannah for a race a number of years ago.  Accident on I-95 NB somewhere North of Exit 29 - ALL TRAFFIC was directed to detour on 2 lane local roads and reentered I-95 at about Mile 46.  The normal 2 hour trip took a little over 6 hours.  While traffic was directed off I-95 no traffic direction was provided along the detour route - all traffic lights operated, all Stop signs had to be obeyed - several left turns had to be made in the face of on coming traffic.  Fun times! [/sarcasm]

[tree68]

BaltACD

  While traffic was directed off I-95 no traffic direction was provided along the detour route - all traffic lights operated, all Stop signs had to be obeyed - several left turns had to be made in the face of on coming traffic.

Another twist - on my way to a wedding this past weekend, I fired up the GPS on my tablet.  I knew most of the route - it was the "last mile" I wasn't sure of - and the app also gives your ETA, so I could track my timing.

As I said, I knew the way, and it was all secondary roads.  The poor lady in the GPS was pulling her hair out (figuratively) as I ignored all attempts to get me on the Interstate, which would actually have been out of my way.  

Imagine that self driving truck encountering a similar situation with a detour...

[charlie hebdo]

Overmod

 

 

charlie hebdo

RRs can drive labor productivity the same way.  One man crews.  Longer crew districts.  Automation of various places and operations like intermodal terminals.   They can also electrify all sorts of machinery other than train operations including pickup and delivery dray, and become "energy source agnostic".

 

 

The possibilities have been ever so much greater, and more interesting, and truthfully for many years.

Start by assuming little more than Kneiling's independently-propelled rakes of cars amenable to easy and cheap intermodal loading (or low-tare operation), and then extend it by the model proposed for the industrial trackage in central New Jersey using small-unit equipment (I believe their proposed equipment was the German CargoSpeed lightweight 'freight trolley' sort of equipment, nominally double-unit articulated, which could easily be adapted for hybrid or multimode power).  Then look for a moment at your 2040 blocking.  There is no objective technical reason why your 'blocks' could not be functionally reduced to aggregates of self-propelled and now self-guiding vehicles, travelling at any approximation of track speed as the equivalent of 'slip coaches' detach and attach themselves adaptively.  While it would be nice if large numbers of destinations were actively rail-capable, that is neither expedient or necessary in a truck-enabled world ... a short-distance, be-home-every-night world facilitating good driver living wage and working condition for the work that can't be cost-effectively made autonomous ... but now any number of 'small ramp' operations or even ad hoc pads become quick and direct intermodal transfer locations, rather than excuses to park hard-to-switch flats where someone might bumble up to them in time.  

Now as charlie hebdo noted earlier, coordinate ownership or assured control between a sufficient pool of yard and road tractor operators and the railroads involved.  Little more than the Uber code (likely available as IP far sooner than ttrraaffiicc's anticipated death of railroading!) would be needed to set up effective JIT intermodal transfer, almost regardless of special or emergent circumstances or even emergency conditions.  Traffic jam? divert on the fly to a known 'alternate route' for all concerned, and quickly implement the operation.

Now I confess I'm still 'with' Kneiling on this being something easier to set up and run 'agile' with operating entities on an 'iron ocean' access model, which is another of charlie hebdo's desiderata.  Here expect the necessary capital and operating scale to be less, and hidebound PSR blinders far less 'inoperative' than for present large railroads ... perhaps a return to the express-company model of manifest freight provision is a possibility?

 

 

The trick is to get working on this stuff NOW, while you have the cash flow.

 

 

Ain't it the truth... but also true is that future sources of capital, including 'populist' governments, will find that this is both more atomistic and more scalable than national high-outlay public conversion, and doesn't have that nasty s-word to confuse the sheep.  Merely legislating open access, in such a context, might go a long way both toward getting railroads to straighten up and fly better and toward making quality service via proper cybernetics and execution more 'mainstream' and 'default' behavior...

 

All the stuff to do this really existed (although not in robust or refined form) in the late '70s -- it is far easier and better today, and with the development of autonomous operation as a perceived cash cow, will only dramatically increase in coming years.  Any good team of college engineers in a contest can get you a reasonably good operating model; their coordination with econ and business students will likely make that reasonably cost-effective...

 

All of the cited comment was from Don Oltmann,  not me.  Perhaps another glitch in that fantastic Calmbrook software? 

[Backshop]

tree68

Another twist - on my way to a wedding this past weekend, I fired up the GPS on my tablet.  I knew most of the route - it was the "last mile" I wasn't sure of - and the app also gives your ETA, so I could track my timing.

As I said, I knew the way, and it was all secondary roads.  The poor lady in the GPS was pulling her hair out (figuratively) as I ignored all attempts to get me on the Interstate, which would actually have been out of my way.   

That's why I don't let my wife turn on the GPS until we get to the "final mile".  Of course, I also still like planning out my routes using a Rand McNally road atlas.

Quick story--my sister doesn't believe in road maps..."I have apps".  Once, several years ago, my wife and I were coming back from the Traverse City area and her and my niece were heading up there.  We decided to meet for lunch at a restaurant in Empire, right next to Sleeping Bear Dunes NLS.  She should have been there in 15 minutes but wasn't there for much longer.  It turned out she lost cellphone reception and drove 30 miles out of her way.  I still had to give her a roadmap because she didn't think it was that important.

[charlie hebdo]

In my opinion,  a major focus for improvement should be the interface between rail transport and road to and from origin and delivery nodes. 

[Overmod]

You question you said this at 8:46 and then reaffirm it at 9:32?

Doesn't matter: it's true.  And I think the same about open access, even limited access over still-private or partly-private ROW as an intermediate step.

Incidentally, as part of the discussion of 'academic' contributions to practical civil engineering, I'm mentioning the contributions that are possible from facilitated interdisciplinary coordination or interest.  One example is McCullough's TRB paper from 1996 analyzing the then cost of road v. rail, something with a better idea of the overall 'cost' of the two than simplistic "cost-benefit" even conducted by careful engineers.  It would be interesting to read how ttrraaffiicc, Gillings et al. might amend their 'numbers' in this somewhat expanded framework.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/archive/conferences/railworkshop/background-McCullough.pdf