"adverse abandonment"
The issue was use of a parking lot that was the Creede station grounds. The town fathers, idiots that they were and still are, assumed the line was abandoned - it wasn't. But Shanks & Co. were not a common carrier railroad and flunked every FRA test in the book, plus a few STB rules. They were shiny toys people and not railroaders. STB took both sides out behind the woodshed more than once. Monte Vista is also at war with Shanks (and to a lesser degree Iowa Pacific/ Ellis over what evolved there)
I know a little bit about it -- I just drove along that line three weeks ago and looked into why it was there and who has been maintaining it. It was the Denver & Rio Grand Tourist Line until 2016. The gentleman who owns it and his brother have been maintaining the track. There was a NARCOA group there about a month ago. Apparently higher insurance costs led to the 2016 closing after an accident that injured a couple of passengers. The RR is for sale. Asking price is $3.4 million.
The line was one of the early extensions of the Denver & Rio Grand Western Railroad (Cumbres & Toltec and Durango & Silverton were also parts of that RR). David Moffat was the president of the D&RGW RR at that time and the Board in NY would not agree to finish the extension up to Creede, CO, even though there were a lot of new mines being developed in Creede. So Moffat resigned as president of the D&RGW and built the line himself! Not too long afterward the Denver & Rio Grande had a change of heart and ended up acquiring the line. Creede went from nothing to 10,000+ residents in about 6 months.
The line from South Fork to Creede travels mostly right along the Rio Grande River in a beautiful valley with mountains on both sides. Several attractive bridges cross the river and the scenery is gorgeous. However Creede does not want the train in town -- they claim they already have too many tourists. They actually pursued and won a reverse abandonment (I think that's what they called it) suit and took over the last mile of the RR into town.
The track at South Fork is standard gauge track and it still connects to the larger rail network via Alamosa (where Iowa Pacific has much of its rolling stock).
Mudchicken,
Oh, I dunno. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. If I can still find this thread again a year from now, I'll try and report back with an update
Best Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN
Fred: All it takes is a few to ruin it for the many. Buying railroad R/W without a good handle on chain of title is a recipe for disaster. The only ones doing well in that scenario is the lawyers. If your trails people are not on the ball and without protection of an STB NITU/CITU decision in their favor (not here), there will be trouble from the NARPO nuts [Indiana has those in abundance] and others who do not want a trail. There are plenty of people on both sides of the argument running around making noise based on hearsay and none of the facts.
Walcottville to South Milford/ PGRV 1991 AB-353X
Ashley-Hudson to Wakarusa/ N&W 1985 AB-10(21F)
Calling railroad R/W an easement already speaks volumes (not good). Most railroad corridors and rights of ways are NOT easements.
mudchicken Anything that was a R/W deed or a grant has reverted in ownership (and then there is the completely unenforceable Indiana statute that falls apart in the federal court)and all NS can do is quit claim the thing (you can quit claim anything, Doesn't mean you really own it.) Those folks are tap-dancing in a minefield. Money they wanted to use improving the trail is sadly going to get gobbled-up in legal fees.
Anything that was a R/W deed or a grant has reverted in ownership (and then there is the completely unenforceable Indiana statute that falls apart in the federal court)and all NS can do is quit claim the thing (you can quit claim anything, Doesn't mean you really own it.) Those folks are tap-dancing in a minefield. Money they wanted to use improving the trail is sadly going to get gobbled-up in legal fees.
MidlandMike rdamon The problem has to do with the underlying property rights. Some areas may be wholly owned by the railroad but there may be a small parcel that was taken by eminent domain and just granted an easement for “railroad purposes only”. So, it may not be a continuous piece of property. When the tracks are pulled the easement is dissolved and the rights go back to the original owner. This has come up with communication and pipelines being installed along the tracks. Lots of lawyers have made a good living going after companies for violating easements. I would guess the landowners are seeking compensation. In the meantime the communication and pipeline companies would be seeking to get access via eminent domain.
rdamon The problem has to do with the underlying property rights. Some areas may be wholly owned by the railroad but there may be a small parcel that was taken by eminent domain and just granted an easement for “railroad purposes only”. So, it may not be a continuous piece of property. When the tracks are pulled the easement is dissolved and the rights go back to the original owner. This has come up with communication and pipelines being installed along the tracks. Lots of lawyers have made a good living going after companies for violating easements.
I would guess the landowners are seeking compensation. In the meantime the communication and pipeline companies would be seeking to get access via eminent domain.
"Rails to trails" under the Federal National Trails System Act is another example of this. This is the Act underlying most trail conversions of abandoned rail lines in recent years. The way easements and other restrictions on title are handled is that the Act declares that trail conversions don't constitute abandonment of the right of way for rail use.
Congress probably thought when they enacted this scheme that they could just wave their magic wand and prevent reversions this way without paying anything to the underlying owners of reversinary property. The Supreme Court disagreed, holding that this constituting a "taking" of the reversionary owners property for which the U.S. had to pay compensation. In other words, the trail promoter gets the property but the U.S. pays the bill.
This has cost the U.S. many millions of dollars over the years. To give an example of the kind of money we're talking about, Bloomberg City Life, in a November 2013 article ("People Love (to sue) Rails to Trails Projects"), estimated that, in the past year alone, the U.S. had paid $49 million in Trails Act "takings"claims and that there were roughly 8,000 such claims totalling over a half billion dollars then outstanding. I haven't been able to find a more current estimate, but someone with more computer expertise than I have (i.e., any kid over 8 years old) should be able to, if it exists.
What should happen in thses cases is that the U.S. should go back against the trail sponsor for reimbursement of any compensation the U.S. has to pay. There's a good basis for this, as both the statute and STB trail use orders require the train sponsor to be responsible for the costs related to the trail conversion, including the transfer. But, apparently, the U.S. Justice Department doesn't have the political will to do this.
Fred M Cain MidlandMike Fred M Cain Further west, the line that connected to the CS across southern Michigan has also been abandoned and torn out. It's a darn shame. The line that continued west of the Canada Southern (ex-MC/NYC/PC/CR/NS) is very much with us, and is in fact being upgraded to 110 mph operation on Amtrak's Wolverine Corridor. Mike, I believe that we are both partly right. The Amtrak line through Battle Creek and Kalamazoo is not only still with us but very much in use. Although I don’t know how much freight that Norfolk Southern runs over the line – if any. They might route most of their Detroit-Chicago freight through Toledo. What I actually had in mind as a western extension of the Canada Southern in Michigan was the Jackson – Three Rivers line. The reason I believe that much of the traffic on the line was routed over the CASO was simply because Conrail closed and later abandoned the line around the same time that they disposed of the CASO. However, declining auto traffic may have also been a factor. The western end of the line from Three Rivers to Niles was abandoned long ago but the Jackson-Three Rivers portion was completely rebuilt by NYC in the early ‘60s, I think it was and they installed welded rail and CTC. Freights on the line were sent out of and received by the NYC’s sprawling Robert Young yard at Elkhart. The line passed right behind my brother in law’s house and was very busy with long freights right up until around 1982 or ’83 when all of a sudden, the traffic stopped. There is a little bit about the line discussed here: https://www.abandonedrails.com/jackson-to-niles Regards, Fred M. Cain
MidlandMike Fred M Cain Further west, the line that connected to the CS across southern Michigan has also been abandoned and torn out. It's a darn shame. The line that continued west of the Canada Southern (ex-MC/NYC/PC/CR/NS) is very much with us, and is in fact being upgraded to 110 mph operation on Amtrak's Wolverine Corridor.
Fred M Cain Further west, the line that connected to the CS across southern Michigan has also been abandoned and torn out. It's a darn shame.
The line that continued west of the Canada Southern (ex-MC/NYC/PC/CR/NS) is very much with us, and is in fact being upgraded to 110 mph operation on Amtrak's Wolverine Corridor.
Mike,
NS sold the ex-MC main "Wolverine" line between Dearborn and Kalamazoo to the State of Michigan for their passenger corridor. They kept freight trackage rights. They actually tried to shortline the route, but Amtrak objected. I believe NS sends much of their Chicago freight over the ex-Wabash/N&W to Butler, IN, thence over the ex-NYC "Water Level Route. I believe this is also the CP trackage rights route.
I wondered if you were originally refering to the "AirLine Route". In the early 1970s I lived in Kalamazoo. First on the west side near the old MC mainline to Niles. The only freight I saw was the local, and occasional long freights which I were told were empties. Then we lived on the south side of town, near the tracks that headed south toward Three Rivers. where they met the AirLine. That was a busy line, and I wondered if they handled AirLine overflow. The line is now owned by Grand Elk RR. Then in 1974 I was working on a seismic crew that had their office/shop on the south side of the Jackson yard between the roundhouse and the junction with the AirLine. That was a busy place then.
Fred:
(1) WABASH had some of the absolute worst land records of any railroad in the midwest (embarassing, even though Montpelier- westward was built so late in the game in order to get them into Chicago from the east). N&W acquired a nightmare of Gould's reckless creation. They have the property because they are not sure of how WABASH really acquired it.
(2) Your trails bubba would have been smarter to acquire the line via the trails process (NITU/CITU) than this way. Anything that was a R/W deed or a grant has reverted in ownership (and then there is the completely unenforceable Indiana statute that falls apart in the federal court)and all NS can do is quit claim the thing (you can quit claim anything, Doesn't mean you really own it.) Those folks are tap-dancing in a minefield. Money they wanted to use improving the trail is sadly going to get gobbled-up in legal fees. Talk to Chad Thomas about acquiring the popcorn concession up in the peanut gallery if the trails dummies get their way. Have fun!
Try GoogleEarth on the Rio Grande Trail, Glenwood Springs to Woody Creek/Aspen (former DRGW Aspen Branch)
Data capture by by quasi-rickshaw.
About 10 years ago, I went back to see where I had worked in the 1956-1960s on the PRR. The west end of the Buckeye Region, Indianapolis to Richmond. Some is a trail and some is not desernible as a ROW. Found a couple of bridge abutments and culverts for small streams. This had been a double tracked Cab Signaled heavy rail (152 lb rail) main line. Part of the PRR's (PCC&StL) St. Louis to Pittsburg route. Hard to imagine that so much has gone forever. I suspect that the active rail milage in Indiana and Ohio now is less than 25% of what existed in 1960.
Thanks for posting!!! Need someone out west to do some of these.
Good! I stand happily corrected!
Flintlock76I found another abandoned 'road drone ride, this one's the old New York, West Shore and Buffalo in the Utica area. (Is Utica a hard-luck town for railroads?
Not any more hard luck than any other city and arguably, better. There are four active railroad operations that serve Utica today: CSX (ex NYC water level route), GVT, aka Mohawk Adirondack and Northern (ex NYC Lyons Falls line), Susquehanna (ex DL&W line to Binghamton) and the Adirondack Scenic RR (ex NYC Adirondack division). Of course the Scenic has been effectively shutdown by the governor over Covid restrictions on group gatherings.
Edit: Make that five operations - Amtrak serves Utica using CSX tracks.
Glad you enjoyed it Fred! I hope everyone else does too! And you're right, it is a bit spooky.
I found another abandoned 'road drone ride, this one's the old New York, West Shore and Buffalo in the Utica area. (Is Utica a hard-luck town for railroads?)
The old West Shore still exists as CSX's Hudson River Subdivison, or "River Sub," but only runs now from North Bergen NJ to Selkirk NY where it hooks up with the old NYC main. The rest is gone, maybe some fragments remain.
So here we go. It's a 33 minute video, so you might want to grab a snack and a drink before you start. VERY scenic country!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BWjS9otgX8
Wayne
PS: Go wide-screen on the computer if you can, it's even more impressive!
BaltACD Has any 'Rail Banked' track ever been returned to operation?
Has any 'Rail Banked' track ever been returned to operation?
Flintlock76 "Chasing a Ghost: O&W's Utica Division" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE1--PWRihg
"Chasing a Ghost: O&W's Utica Division"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE1--PWRihg
As the 'Dude said, once it's gone, it's gone for good.
Here's a great example. It's a 17 minute drone-shot video of the abandoned Ontario & Western's Utica Division, and a stunning example of how a line can disappear and disappear completely, with some minor fragments remaining.
In most areas it's like it was never there.
Very interesting and enjoyable.
rrnut282 Fred M Cain Here in Topeka, Indiana, where I live, they have been pushing for a new bicycle rail trail on the abandoned Wabash line that ran from Montpelier, OH through Topeka to somewhere near the southern extremities of Chicago. The rails were pulled up in the fall of 1985. Now the people who are pushing for this trail are negotiating with Norfolk Southern to purchase the abandoned right of way. I was really surprised and astounded that they still own most of it. So, if this trail ends up going through then NS’s efforts to hold on to it for future investment it might finally pay off in the end. Best Regards, Fred M. Cain, Topeka, IN Do the people who advocate for a bike trail understand the line is active (operated and possibly owned by Indiana Northeastern) between South Milford and at least Steubenville, if not all the way to Montpelier, Oh?
Fred M Cain Here in Topeka, Indiana, where I live, they have been pushing for a new bicycle rail trail on the abandoned Wabash line that ran from Montpelier, OH through Topeka to somewhere near the southern extremities of Chicago. The rails were pulled up in the fall of 1985. Now the people who are pushing for this trail are negotiating with Norfolk Southern to purchase the abandoned right of way. I was really surprised and astounded that they still own most of it. So, if this trail ends up going through then NS’s efforts to hold on to it for future investment it might finally pay off in the end. Best Regards, Fred M. Cain, Topeka, IN
Do the people who advocate for a bike trail understand the line is active (operated and possibly owned by Indiana Northeastern) between South Milford and at least Steubenville, if not all the way to Montpelier, Oh?
I don't believe that they have plans for a bike trail on the eastern end of the line east of South Milford. The current plans are for a Wolcottville - Millersburg bike trail and possibly eventually Wolcottville - Wakarusa.
Current plans are for the new trail, tentatively known as "The Hawpatch Trail", to connect with another bike trail at Wolcottville that will run from there down to Kendalville, IN. Part of that trail is already paved and in place.
We have a lot of cyclists around here and getting them off of county roads is probably a good idea. Our roads seem to be becoming more and more dangerous for bike riders.
Regard,
Fred M. Cain
MidlandMike Pipeline/utility/communication companies are the obvious business that would buy or lease rail ROWs. Trail entities would also be interested. At the wider spots, such as the Minturn yard, developers at Vail Resorts would love to buy it.
Pipeline/utility/communication companies are the obvious business that would buy or lease rail ROWs. Trail entities would also be interested. At the wider spots, such as the Minturn yard, developers at Vail Resorts would love to buy it.
In farm country, abandoned lines are often purchased by adjacent farmers. As the RR doesn't want to deal with but one buyer, in one case I know of, they formed their own cooperative, purchased the line and then sold the individual tracts to the farmers.
There is one line I know of that was purchased by a construction company, bulldozed flat and is now a 20 mile long ROW wide one owner farm. I have also seen abandoned lines that are used for storage of grain gondolas in the off season.
SunnylandI doubt that Saluda will ever come back,
I've never been there, but have read numerous accounts of the hill.
That said - I would tend to agree, it's gone for good. When it was built by the Spartanburg and Ashville, it was about the only route available. I would presume that Southern lacked a suitable alternate routing in their day.
Now that we're down to a handful of Class 1's, they can pick and choose how to route traffic to avoid the grade.
Plenty of other post merger duplicate lines have met the same fate.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I doubt that Saluda will ever come back, it was so dangerous and hard to run that I cannot imagine NS using it. We were at grade summit a few years ago on trip to NC, did not look bad there, but pics we saw in museum and I have read about on here, showed what the trip was like and many wrecks. The crossing gates are gone and signals are covered. I do not even think a tourist RR would want it, what a wild ride. I was sorry to hear NS was stopping trains on Old Fort Loops as we saw that too, a train had just arrived at town of Old Fort so we did not get to see it on the Loops, but drove around the area and could see the tracks up high and then lower, and we did stop at Andrews Geyser. When RR's find faster and safer alternatives, they make the switch and are reluctant to ever come back.
MidlandMike Since that time the ajoining Moffat route which was near capacity, I understand is down to a UP local, whatever coal is left, and BNSF trackage right train(s). Is there some thought now that Tennessee Pass is really excess? Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass. Have you heard any more on that?
Since that time the ajoining Moffat route which was near capacity, I understand is down to a UP local, whatever coal is left, and BNSF trackage right train(s). Is there some thought now that Tennessee Pass is really excess? Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass. Have you heard any more on that?
Falcon48 I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement. To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP. The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. ...
Fred M CainFurther west, the line that connected to the CS across southern Michigan has also been abandoned and torn out. It's a darn shame.
Well said John, I was about to write something similar.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The Canada Southern demise may (I'm speculating) be indirectly linked to government stupidity. When Conrail took over from Penn Central, the Canadian Foreign Investment Review Board chose to investigate rather than just rubber stamp the technical change of ownership. It was supposed to confirm the change of ownership would be of value to Canada. That hiccup may well have triggered the shift of all traffic to the longer all USA route. The restricted clearances in the Windsor-Detroit tunnels also would be limiting what traffic could use it as a through route.
Neither CP nor CN were interested in the CASO as a through route. It had limited on-line traffic and that could mostly be accessed by their own parallel lines and branches. It was only each end, the Detroit tunnel and the Welland-Niagara area, that had real value for them. The FIRB would not have any say, and no doubt at the time considered it a triumph for Canada.
Bureaucratic idiocy is not restricted to any one country!
John
Overmod Two cautionary tales: the Lackawanna Cutoff and the Canada Southern. <SNIP>
Two cautionary tales: the Lackawanna Cutoff and the Canada Southern. <SNIP>
Overmode,
I agree wholeheartedly on both cases. The sad story of the Canada Southern is that for freight it was probably the shortest and fastest route from Boston, Albany and Buffalo to Chicago. One issue was that freight and goods that both originated and terminate in the United States had to pass customs twice. But I think that they might've been able to resolve that somehow.
Further west, the line that connected to the CS across southern Michigan has also been abandoned and torn out. It's a darn shame.
Another sad loss to me is the sad case of the Milwaukee Road's Pacific Coast Extension west of Terry, MT. Sometimes I feel like some of our corporate and political leaders are not doing their best to look out for our best interests but that's just an opinion.
Regards,
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