For example, Saluda.
Why do railroads frequently hang onto right of ways that they have no plans to ever use again....and tracks that have been given back to nature for the most part.
Why don't they sell or tax donate those scenarios.?
Thank You
Once it's gone, it can't come back. And though rust never sleeps, railroads can be rebuilt.
A number of lines were abandoned or at minimum severed as through routes during the 'bad old days' of the 1970s and 80s, only for the railroads to regret those actions years later as traffic patterns shifted or increased.
In the cases of Tennessee Pass and Saluda, the railroads actually learned from their previous mistakes, a rare occurrence.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thank You..... that was the other one i was thinking of... Tennessee Pass. I just wonder. It becomes obvoius that certain right of ways will NEVER be used again, yet they just sit and rot.
I suppose it could be hard to sell several miles of trackage. What would a developer do with 10 miles of land that is only 20 yards (if that is the case) wide.?
kenny dorham Thank You..... that was the other one i was thinking of... Tennessee Pass. I just wonder. It becomes obvoius that certain right of ways will NEVER be used again, yet they just sit and rot. I suppose it could be hard to sell several miles of trackage. What would a developer do with 10 miles of land that is only 20 yards (if that is the case) wide.?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
kenny dorhamThank You..... that was the other one i was thinking of... Tennessee Pass. I just wonder. It becomes obvoius that certain right of ways will NEVER be used again, yet they just sit and rot. I suppose it could be hard to sell several miles of trackage. What would a developer do with 10 miles of land that is only 20 yards (if that is the case) wide.?
Developer would not care about the 10 miles of right of way - he would only care about the width of the right of way that abuts the property he owns on both sides of the right of way - then he could develop the contiguous property, railroad be damned.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Pipeline/utility/communication companies are the obvious business that would buy or lease rail ROWs. Trail entities would also be interested. At the wider spots, such as the Minturn yard, developers at Vail Resorts would love to buy it.
right..... Thanks Guys.!
MidlandMike Pipeline/utility/communication companies are the obvious business that would buy or lease rail ROWs. Trail entities would also be interested. At the wider spots, such as the Minturn yard, developers at Vail Resorts would love to buy it.
rdamonThe problem has to do with the underlying property rights. Some areas may be wholly owned by the railroad but there may be a small parcel that was taken by eminent domain and just granted an easement for “railroad purposes only”. So, it may not be a continuous piece of property. When the tracks are pulled the easement is dissolved and the rights go back to the original owner. This has come up with communication and pipelines being installed along the tracks. Lots of lawyers have made a good living going after companies for violating easements.
I would guess the landowners are seeking compensation. In the meantime the communication and pipeline companies would be seeking to get access via eminent domain.
SD70Dude Once it's gone, it can't come back. And though rust never sleeps, railroads can be rebuilt. A number of lines were abandoned or at minimum severed as through routes during the 'bad old days' of the 1970s and 80s, only for the railroads to regret those actions years later as traffic patterns shifted or increased. In the cases of Tennessee Pass and Saluda, the railroads actually learned from their previous mistakes, a rare occurrence.
IN several areas { Southeastern to name one} The railroads have adopted the practice of " Rail Banking " Norfolk Southern is well into practicing this .
I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement. To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to fully abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP.
The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. Several lines were taken off the abandonment "hit list" because of this consideration, including Tennessee Pass - service over it was just "discontineud". Under current law, if a railroad gets STB authority to discontinue service over a rail line (which is what UP got in the UP'SP merger decisionI, it can later restore the line to service without any regulatory approval or environmental evaluation. But rebuilding a fully "abandoned" rail line is like building a new one - it would take years just to get the environmental clearances and regulatory approvals. As a practical matter, as some other posts have already said, once its gone, its gone for good.
samfp1943" Rail Banking " Norfolk Southern is well into practicing this .
Russell
Falcon48I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement. To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP. The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. ...
Since that time the ajoining Moffat route which was near capacity, I understand is down to a UP local, whatever coal is left, and BNSF trackage right train(s). Is there some thought now that Tennessee Pass is really excess? Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass. Have you heard any more on that?
Has any 'Rail Banked' track ever been returned to operation?
BaltACD Has any 'Rail Banked' track ever been returned to operation?
There were some small sections returned to service in another thread. A section I am familiar with, is in the Upper Peninsular of Michigan. About 2 miles of an ex-LS&I rails-to-trails was re-railed and serves a mine-mill at Humbolt, MI. It's operated by the Mineral Range RR.
You have Diesel Fried Chicken guy's RGP squared off against MoPac Colorado line owner KVCN ... plenty of reading material on the STB website (and some really weird commentary from people like the mayor of Salida, CO tying all of this to the Six County Project in Utah that is completely off the lines in question.)
MidlandMike Falcon48 I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement. To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP. The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. ... Since that time the ajoining Moffat route which was near capacity, I understand is down to a UP local, whatever coal is left, and BNSF trackage right train(s). Is there some thought now that Tennessee Pass is really excess? Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass. Have you heard any more on that?
Falcon48 I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement. To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP. The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. ...
You also have things like NS playing keep away with CN-IC on a portion of the old CR/PC/NYC- P&E in Illinois with an outside chance of that line also being future intercity HSR....but Illinois is too broke and too badly managed to take that any further.
Balt: there are at least six lines that I know of that came out of railbanking to run again, most for relatively short lengths. There is also the weird things happening on the Indiana Southern and Heart of Georgia RR. that didn't have NITU/CITU status and are now being challenged.
MidlandMikeAlso UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass.
It's a good question how concerned UP still is about retaining Tennessee Pass for possible future use. I'm not in the loop anymore, so I haven't heard anything about the status of UP's talks with a "second railroad" (I forget the name right now, but it was mentioned in another thread). Still, such a deal wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with potential UP use of the line, as there could be a retention of trackage rights in the deal. One thing looming in the future that may be relevant to this is the upcoming expiration of UP's lease on Moffat Tunnel (2025).
Overmod MidlandMike Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass. Is this different from the guy who wanted to use it for private grain export unit trains?
Also UP said they were in talks with a second railroad that is interested in Tenn Pass.
Is this different from the guy who wanted to use it for private grain export unit trains?
Yes, it's different. The "guy who wanted to use it [the TP line] fr private grain export trains" wasn't in negotiation with UP. He tried to acquire the line by an STB ordered "forced sale". The STB rejected his petition for various deficiencies . He could refile but, to date, he hasn't. However, during the proceeding, UP revealed it was in negotiations with someone else for acquisition of the line (I forget the name of the other party, but STB erroneously disclosed it and it was mentioned in another thread).
The two RRs going after the Tennesee Pass line have similar names: Colorado Pacific is the line owned by the ex-MP grain hauler; and Rio Grande Pacific is the "second" RR which wants to use the line to haul Utah crude oil from the proposed Uinta Basin RR to the Gulf.
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/03/stb-filing-union-pacifics-tennessee-pass-could-become-short-cut-for-utah-crude-oil
Many of us have no doubt seen 'abandoned' tracks that are pushing onward into ever growing woods with trees the size of one's leg poking up between rotting crossties. Is there a chance that this overgrown route will one day see train traffic again ? Sure. Just like there's a chance we'll spot little green men scurring across the surface of Mars some day.
Unused railroad tracks have salvage value. The underlying real estate may also have value, depending on the state of the title. It's one thing to leave a small stretch of unused track in place (like an unused industrial siding). But if the tracks are left in place on a line of some length (particularly if owned by an operating railroad), there's probably a reason for that. It could be possible future use, environmental issues, or something else.
Does anyone know anything about the tracks from South Fork, CO to just south of Creede, CO? I drove that stretch 15 years ago, and there were quite a few 6" diameter trees inbetween the rails. This year's Google Earth images look like the right-of-way has been maintained. East of South Fork to Monte Vista is car storage. There is a depot just west of South Fork on Ponderosa Road with some rolling stock, but I don't see any signs to know whose building it is.
South Dakota has a dormant grain line running to Platte. Every couple of years some group tries to get financing together to reopen it. When/if someone does get it done, they'll make some money on the firewood frpm all the trees growing between the rails.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
You also have multiple cases out there where railroads lost track of who abandoned what exactly just what (STB is sorting one of those right now in Southern Kansas), railroads that were just plain inept (CONRAIL-CONRAIL-CONRAIL and predecessors PC and USRA) and shortlines with no funds to do the proper thing (including holding companies).
It takes a lot more to be able to run a railroad and it is a lot more to it than just knowing how to run trains and shiny toys.
ps - you also have Rails-to-trails people claiming railroad corridors stupidly or illegally. Scary world out there.
There is a fiber optic line running up the Saluda RoW. I'm assuming NS receives compensation for this easement while maintaining the RoW as little as possible. If they renewed the license agreement, NS is stuck with it until 2037 or 2042. I guess they could sell and transfer, which they did from Flat Rock to Asheville to Watco, but I don't know about abandonment.
Per NCDOT's rail crossing database, it looks like NS did some cleaning up around Tryon last September, but not past Horseshoe Curve and on to Saluda.
Aerial photos of Los Angeles area clearly show some places where former Pacific Electric R/W subdivided. Street and houses at diagional to overall patern.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
UPtelecomtech Does anyone know anything about the tracks from South Fork, CO to just south of Creede, CO? I drove that stretch 15 years ago, and there were quite a few 6" diameter trees inbetween the rails. This year's Google Earth images look like the right-of-way has been maintained. East of South Fork to Monte Vista is car storage. There is a depot just west of South Fork on Ponderosa Road with some rolling stock, but I don't see any signs to know whose building it is.
A tourist line ran speeder trips over the route. I have seen you-tube videos of the ride. They wanted to go all the way into the Creede station, but the town was not interested.
I believe it's a failed tourist road.
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