I recently spent a day in Watseka for work and saw a couple TPW trains run through town, mainly covered hoppers. It looked like they were moving at 10-15mph maybe.
Is there much traffic on that line anymore? And, aside from grain elevators, who are the customers? IIRC, it was once considered as a possible bridge line for ATSF-Indiana traffic.
A bit nostalgic - my oldest son and I took a caboose ride on that line farther west when it was the TPW (again) a couple of decades ago.
TFAI!
I'm really surprised that no one has given you any useful feedback on this topic. I was looking forward to up-to-date information as well.
I can offer limited, outdated information.....I drove across Illinois on the mostly parallel US 24 several times in the 15-18 year ago time frame, durning normal business hours on week days.....and never saw one single train.
My timing could have just been of odd luck, but after the first few trips, the complete absence of trains was impossible to ignore.
[quote user="Convicted One"]
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Similar to Convicted One's mempries; I worked out of Chicago in the 1980's for an OTR Carrier. Our customers and routes crossed the area of the TP&W's trackage. Exactly. as he stated, it sure seemed to be a railroad without any traffic, at least in the daylight. It crossed the ICRRs tracks at Gilman,Il.
There was another N-S RR that crossed it at the Indiana side of the border with Illinois; Can't remember its name now. In the late 1980's there was a large Intermodal facility built just off the westside of I-65 just north of the Kentland Interchange (Remington,In (?).. It was on the line of the TP&W to its Lafayette, In. line.[ Terminus was then about Logansport,In} I think it was a'bust' (?)
I cannot ever remember seeing any activitiy there. Somehow, I think it came out iof some of the era's big merger activities(?).. AT&SF and PRR (maybe P.C. RR) and TP&W were all in a 'merger dance' sround that time (?).
I also recall there was a lot of 'talk' [Railroad speak: 'Scuttlebutt'?] around about the possibility of TP&W becoming a possible West to East(?) South By-Pass for the congestion in the Chicago area, as well(?) Another 'Bust' ?
Here is a linked site that has some of that history:
@ https://www.american-rails.com/tpw.html
samfp1943In the late 1980's there was a large Intermodal facility built just off the westside of I-65 just north of the Kentland Interchange (Remington,In (?).. It was on the line of the TP&W to its Lafayette, In. line.[ Terminus was then about Logansport,In} I think it was a'bust' (?)
Interesting thing about that place, first time I saw it as I was driving by in 2003. Probably about 3 PM, and every light in the yard was burning bright. Nice big "BNSF" monument sign at the entrance drive too.
But no apparent activity.
It was being used as a staging yard for wind turbine blades the last time I saw it.
Hoosier Lift was it's name. Created by ATSF when they controlled the TPW. I was Right Of Way Agent for Santa Fe and participated in its creation. It was the idea of Larry Cena; at that time President and CEO.
diningcar. I was Right Of Way Agent for Santa Fe and participated in its creation. It was the idea of Larry Cena; at that time President and CEO.
Thanks for your input. Since you were in a position to know, what was the strategic initiative behind the creation of that facility? One hears a lot of re-boiled opinion about this place, usually governed by the will of the person "offering" their opinion. But it would be nice to hear for once what the original mission statement was.
I have no personal info but believe the concept was to intercept northbound I-65 traffic ultimately destined for Chicago and then further west. Thus the cargo could use the TP&W to a Lomax connection with the Santa Fe main line thus avoiding congested Chicago. Also a reverse move for eastbound cargo which would not go through Chicago and down I-65.
I presume Santa Fe's marketing staff provided info that persuaded President Cena.
It seems to me that all those benefits are as tangible today as they were 30 years ago, if not more so. What changed?
Convicted One It seems to me that all those benefits are as tangible today as they were 30 years ago, if not more so. What changed?
The merger with BN ?
Well, I got curious in regard to this line's apparent dormancy, so I followed it via Google maps from Monticello IN west to Peoria IL. And while it doesn't "prove" anything...normally in such an aerial "flyover" you see at least some activity. I found next to none.
There appear to be sidings still in service at many sizeable Ag operations.....but scant tangible proof that any of them are being serviced. Likely a different story during harvest season?
Other than that,... just an odd assortment of cars standing on innerchange wyes here and there at various junctions, and a single industrial building having it's own siding in Gridley IL, here is what else I did find:
A substantial number of cars on industry siding with nearby power on standby at Gilman IL, Incobrasa Industries,
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7646843,-88.0187524,595m/data=!3m1!1e3
Relic of an old turntable in Forrest IL
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7495969,-88.4067373,286m/data=!3m1!1e3
This train parked on a siding in Fairbury, with no opposiing or overtaking traffic anywhere in sight, anyone know what kind of cars those might be?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7466197,-88.5187134,72m/data=!3m1!1e3
A "continuous loading" facility Between Chenoa and Gridley:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7470632,-88.7703384,1146m/data=!3m1!1e3
This train operating in East Peoria
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6706577,-89.5384097,72m/data=!3m1!1e3
The Railroad's yard in East Peoria
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6693537,-89.5513233,574m/data=!3m1!1e3
Other than that, this line truly seems barren. With all the sidings at Ag facilities, I'd guess this railroad must earn it's keep during the soybean/corn season.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
One other thing I noticed, again just from the perspective of Google, so there obvious;y is no science involved.
But this line appears to be plagued by many, many small bridges over small creeks, where the bridges themselves appear questionable for 286K traffic.
Perhaps that has something to do with why this line never really panned out as a Chicago bypass? (subsequent to the demise of Hoosierlift)
Don't think bridges were a probem in in mid-1980's because Santa Fe had excellent bridge people to advise Mr. Cena
Weren't they using 263,000# as the car limit in the 1980's?
Seems like I recall reading somewhere around 1999-2000 in Trains magazine that the heavier limit was going to make some lines obsolete.
Santa Fe's plans to transport vans from the highways would not have been concerned with 263000# loads. I am not aware of that heavy traffic on the TP&W line.
Yeah, my comment about "not working out as a Chicago bypass" pretty much took the demise of Hoosierlift as a foregone conclusion, and really was more pointed towards why the TPW has not THEREAFTER been used as a bridge between eastern and western roads AS A MEANS TO BYPASS CHICAGO.
We've had discussion here before pondering why this line, (or even the Kankakee branch as an alternative) are not employed as bypass routes to avoid the congestion in Chicago. And I don't believe that any of those discussions contemplated possible limiting capacity of the extant bridges on the line.
Perhaps the cost of upgrading all those bridges made this line a less attractive alternative, is what I guess I am saying.
Anyway, my initial observation was just a "perhaps", so I'm not sure it's worthy of much more debate than we've already given it.
Currently owned by the BNSF. Will check to see if anyone on one of the forums that belong to has any current information on the ex TP&W.
All the class 1s have to go to Chicago anyway to serve that large market. So what would justify a second bypass line. Railfans and probably shippers can see reasons why. However, Fred Frailey said that class 1s don't seem to consider transfers a priority. Once they get the car to Chicago, they figure transfers are the connecting railroad's problem. The "final round" of mergers combining the lines coast to coast will solve the Chicago problem. They might even consider a bypass.
Well, the White Sox have been postponed due to rain so I might as well chime in.
Peoria, IL was a "Gateway." It was a small time rival to interchange between east and west at Chicago and/or St. Louis. It was also the "Big City" for us small town folks of central Illinois. It even had medical specialists such as the pediatrician who did me a world of good when I got a peanut in to a lung at age two. The local small town doctor kind of missed that.
We'd go to Peoria maybe twice a year, aside from the pediatrician visits. Once for Christmas shopping and once more in the summer when the folks ran out of something that needed to be sourced in a big city such as Peoria.
Because it was a "Gateway" many railroads built branches in to Peoria or nearby Pekin. Off the top of my head I'll list: Illinois Central, GM&O, they had two, New York Central, Pennsylvania, Nickle Plate, Rock Island (two branches), Santa Fe (from the east!) and CB&Q. The TP&W was kind of unique in that it passed through Peoria. It linked the Pennsylvania from Indiana to the Santa Fe in Iowa. It was a Chicago/St. Louis bypass. The Tip Up also took Peoria traffic to and from those important connections.
Peoria/Pekin business was nothing to sneeze at. Lots of good, old fashioned, midwest industry. Again, off the top of my head; Caterpillar's main factories, Hiram Walker (the worlds largest bourbon distillery), a Pabst brewery, Keystone Steel and Wire, various meat packing facilities and a major livestock market, Corn Products (Pekin) and LeTourneau Westinghourse (another heavy construction equipment manufacturer.) There were other traffic sources.
The TP&W would take Peoria origin/destination business to the Santa Fe or Pennsylvania. BUT! The Penssy had its own branch to Peoria, so that was limited. A lot, but not all, of the industries were served by a neutral switching carrier, the Peoria and Pekin Union. They served the big one, Caterpillar. The P&PU had double track between Peoria and Pekin. The IC, NYC, and Santa Fe (from the east!) branches actually went to Pekin, IL. The IC and NYC trains used this double track to reach the P&PU yard in East Peoria. So did the C&IM.
This all pretty much worked until: 1) the industries began to shut down or relocate and, 2) ConRail cancelled its through rates with the TP&W. This took a lot of business off the TP&W. The branch lines to Peoria became obsolete and were abandoned. Both former GM&O lines are gone, the Pennsylvania and New York Central lines are gone, one of the former Rock Island lines is gone. The Minneapolis & St. Louis, which terminated in Peoria, is gone.
Hey, things change.
For some unknown reason the Santa Fe bought the TP&W and upgraded it with welded rail. This didn't work out. The old TP&W is now split between G&W east of Peoria and Keokuk Junction west of Peoria. They don't have a lot of business.
The TP&W was interesting because of its locomotive roster. It seemed they bought one or two of anything and everything. They had old Alco hood units, F Units, Alco Century units, one GP40, etc.
MidlandMike So what would justify a second bypass line.
Every now and then after they resume bawling about needing more C.R.E.A.T.E. money to fix whatever nightmare du jour stands obstacle to their survival, thats usually when I start thinking about the alternatives they have squandered away that could have worked, ostensibly even better.
greyhounds The Minneapolis & St. Louis, which terminated in Peoria, is gone.
They are the ones who had "Peoria Gateway" emblazoned on the side of their rolling stock, weren't they?
The thought of using the TPW or the Kankakee branch as a bypass around Chicago has come up a few times prior.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/211083.aspx?page=3#2316292
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/252222.aspx?page=1
Have to copy and paste the links I'm afraid, not sure if it's just because the link to material is local, but the forum software won't allow me to lite em up.
Not sure how much "bypass Chicago" business is still around.
First of all, the number of boxcar trains has greatly diminished over the years. BNSF / NS runs a daily train from Streator to Kankakee to NS. It usually is about 80 cars.
Intermodal trains off of BNSF for the east to either CSX or NS quite often pickup containers in Chicago for the destination.
There are ethanol and crude oil trains, but that is not enough to support the by pass lines.
Coal - enough said.
Grain - NS runs quite a few grain trains out of Kankakee area, perhaps 5 a week.
Six years ago there was enough business to consider by pass routing, today not so much.
Ed
[quote user="Convicted One"
"Abandoned lines - what would look good on today's map?"
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/252222.aspx
Hopefully, that heated up the links (?)
There are trains on TP&W that turn south at Reynolds and exchange cars at the old Monon (CSX) yard in Lafayette. What I have seen have been mostly hoppers, source unknown. Only once in almost 50 years of driving Indiana 43 have I ever been stopped by a TP&W train in Reynolds, and it was coming from the east, which is even more rare. Sometimes there will be hopper cars in the wind turbine transfer area, some with locomotives sometimes not. I will join with those in not having seen many trains from US 24, which I have driven many times (and hitchhiked a few times) over the past 50 years.
PR
Convicted One ...normally in such an aerial "flyover" you see at least some activity. I found next to none. There appear to be sidings still in service at many sizeable Ag operations.....but scant tangible proof that any of them are being serviced. Likely a different story during harvest season? A substantial number of cars on industry siding with nearby power on standby at Gilman IL, Incobrasa Industries, Other than that, this line truly seems barren. With all the sidings at Ag facilities, I'd guess this railroad must earn it's keep during the soybean/corn season.
...normally in such an aerial "flyover" you see at least some activity. I found next to none.
Chuck FinleyIncobrassa is a big soybean processor, so I assume they work year-round. I might be back down there in a few weeks; maybe I can spend some time trackside when, of course, NOTHING will run. LOL.
Well, by all means, take a camera, and report back to us. I'm curious!!
Incobrassa looks like an interesting operation, their website is worth a visit. They seem to claim that much of their business is via truck, and serving their customers fleets of rail cars, but they claim to have their own rolling stock as well.
Probably one of the more remarkable things about the TPW track, is that it never got pulled up and survives to this day? Lots of other lines of similar heritage are gone. I guess we can thank Santa Fe for it's survival giving it purpose during the "bloodbath" era?
And probably thank the fertile soils of Illinois for it's continued survival in this day and age.
Hoosier Lift was a great idea and the traffic department sold the hell out of it. However, the operating department did not cooperate. The train out of Hoosier Lift would get to Fort Madison and have to sit a day until the next train to the west coast. That doomed Hoosier Lift to an early death. You could ingate a load at Corwith and it would get out to LA in four to five days. If you ingated at Hoosier Lift, the transit would be an additional day. the ATSF could have better coordinated the arrival of the train at Ft Madison with a transcon train, but it didn't. Great idea, piss poor planning.
The last few years I traveled US 24 from I-55 to Gilman regularly; very occasional TP&W traffic -- sometimes an early morning eastbound movement; around Gilman in the late afternoon (4-5 p.m.) often interchange and switching work, with a locomotive tied up westbound for the night; I've also caught movement east of Gilman around the noon hour. Very hit and miss.
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