May I encourage everyone here to consider displaying their (American) flag on Friday, May 8th in observence the 75th anniversary of V-E Day?
Do any of the ancient contributors in here (I'm looking at you, Dave Klepper & others!) have a first hand recollection of that day? Any good anecdotes handed down from dad & mom or the grandparents?
Do you recall the photo of the sailor kissing the nurse in Times Square? What a day for the USA (and our allies!)!
Consider it done at the "Fortress Flintlock!"
And the flag will have 48 stars! "The Flag of Liberation."
I'm a few years short of remembering that first hand, but if my mother were alive, I'm sure she'd have plenty to share. My late father was an Army MP at the time in Washington, DC.
As for my flag - we'll have to see if I can get the new pole planted by then.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Flintlock76And the flag will have 48 stars! "The Flag of Liberation."
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I really do not remember that day very well; I was nine years old. V-J Day sticks a little more in my mind.
Still, it was a glorious summer.
Johnny
This is a major anniversary, too -- it has been a very long 75 years since that day. Perhaps it's a sign of the pandemic that much more isn't being made of it.
100 years since the influenza pandemic wound down, too...
zugmann Flintlock76 And the flag will have 48 stars! "The Flag of Liberation."
Flintlock76 And the flag will have 48 stars! "The Flag of Liberation."
Good one, Zug! I wonder if Grampa Simpson's from Kansas?
(I've got two 49 star flags myself! No disrespect intended toward "Missoura"!)
Mod-man, the pandemic's got everyone distracted from everything. Considering how "hot" World War Two is right now it's about the only thing that could have caused that kind of distaction.
The Russians had a big shindig planned for Red Square on May 8th, they've had to push it back to a future date due to coronavirus. British and French commemorations have been postponed as well.
If he were still alive, it would be interesting to hear my father's memories of V-E Day, if he had any specific ones. He was certainly old enough to remember, but my guess is he was too busy to pay much attention - on 5/8/45 he was still on Okinawa, and the fighting was still going on.
The men I knew who were Pacific Theater veterans certainly knew about V-E Day, and were glad to hear about it, but as you put it they were too busy with the Japanese to do any celebrating. V-E Day didn't affect them at all.
The only consolation for guys in the Pacific was if they had any friends or relatives fighting in Europe they didn't have to worry about them anymore, at least that burden on their minds was lifted.
SALfan If he were still alive, it would be interesting to hear my father's memories of V-E Day, if he had any specific ones. He was certainly old enough to remember, but my guess is he was too busy to pay much attention - on 5/8/45 he was still on Okinawa, and the fighting was still going on.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Like Johnny, I was nine and have no specific memories of that day There are some faint recollections that there were celebrations for V J DAY in late Aug or early Sept.
The program on a local radio station every Saturday afternoon, which devotes itself to old-time radio shows, etc., has been following the events of 75 years ago with news reports, etc. I'm sure VE Day and its aftermath will get its share of coverage this Saturday. (WDCB, 90.9, for Chicago-area folks interested...Saturday afternoons, 1:00-5:00 p.m.)My dad had been in the Pacific Theater, but--judging from the celebratory pictures I can remember from the album we can no longer find--he was Stateside when VJ Day took place.(Today, May 6, would have been my dad's 98th birthday. Sadly, he died at 55.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Overmod 100 years since the influenza pandemic wound down, too...
The paper in my dad's eastern Montana home town has a column of 25, 50, 75 and 100 years ago. A couple of months back, the 75 years ago section mentioned my dad finished officer's school and being commissioned as an Ensign in the USN. The 100 years ago portion had a couple of notes of one family recovering from the flu and another family losing an infant to the flu.
With one uncle based in the south Pacific (USAAF), my dad shipping out in the Pacific and my grandfather working a few months at Hanford, VJ day was much more important in my family than VE day.
I do like the idea of flying the flag on the 8th.
Based on what I heard from Dad over the years, V-E Day was an event but it wasn't quite that improtant. He had finished his combat tour (32 missions) some time after Operation Overlord and was waiting for his next tour. He did say once that he was about to be assigned to Air Transport Command flying supplies to Alaska when the 509th CG dropped the big ones.
Lest we forget, many American GI's were coming back stateside to await orders to the Pacific theater for the push into Japan itself. I had a cousin who was a major in Italy received his orders to the Pacific, I believe, Okinawa where my dad was awarded the silver star. Fortunatly, the atom bombs ended that part of WWII.
One of my brothers was a radar operator on a minesweep (AM55) that swept mines in the Mediterranean.
After VE day, his ship was moved to the San Diego area, with the intent to send it to the action in the Pacific. His next move was in April of 1946--when he was discharged.
A McIntoshLest we forget, many American GI's were coming back stateside to await orders to the Pacific theater for the push into Japan itself.
Probably with the sure understanding that the United States would experience a million or more casualties 'finishing the job' with the Japanese empire.
I do think there is something to the revisionist idea that the Russian invasion of Manchuria was a significant part of the Japanese surrender. The actual military effect of the early fission weapons were less (as has been occasionally stated) than distributed incendiary raids on Japanese cities. For strategic reasons much of the horror of sustained intentional incendiary bombing (the most dramatic probably being Hamburg after Churchill ordered 'opening the window' to incapacitate the air defenses; the most literarily famous probably being Dresden ... but Tokyo by most measures dwarfing both for suffering) was not played up as much as the prompt effects of Just One Bomb, but it seemed clear to me that a national government unresponsive to the threat of sustained Tokyo-style raids would not be initially cowed by the effective ability of a 'weather-flight' size raid to accomplish a somewhat smaller version of the same thing. As we know now, there were only two more weapons in reserve, one nowhere near deployment, with only one more in about a six-week window of completion -- if this had resulted in stoppage of further atomic raids (the next probably on Kokura, more of a legitimate military target) I think there might have been a higher likelihood of 'no surrender' up to the first stages of home-island invasion ... after which there might have been tragic levels of sacrifice on both sides of the predicted level, followed by a far less generous postwar policy (at least as severe as that in pre-Marshall Germany) rather than what MacArthur et al. developed.
Much of the added joy at VJ day reflects that cloud being lifted early and definitively, I think.
OvermodAs we know now, there were only two more weapons in reserve, one nowhere near deployment, with only one more in about a six-week window of completion
As I read years ago, there were only three A-bombs on hand. Hiroshima and Nagasaki got the first two. The third was being saved for the invasion of Kyushu and Tokyo was the intended target to wipe out or seriously disrupt or cripple Japan's centralized command and control. Bomb goes BOOM, then the troops go in.
It hardly matters, at least it didn't have to be done.
Concerning V-E Day, I remember my mother telling me (She's a New York City girl) that the V-E celebrations in the city were a lot bigger than the V-J Day ones. She said V-J Day was almost anti-climactic, the common (mis)conception being that once the Germans were beaten the Japanese couldn't last much longer. If they only knew!
Guys in the Pacific weren't saying "Home alive in '45!", they were thinking "The Golden Gate in '48!"
I've read a couple of books that stated a third weapon was being flown from Los Alamos August 14th, with the flight stopped at Hamilton Field. The operational plan called for four bombs to be ready in September ("Whirlind" by Barrett Tillman). I wonder what the end of WW2 would have been like if UofChi MetLab hadn't screwed up with their heavy water reactor (only running it 8 hours a day), which would have allowed the Pu production reactors at Hanford to start in Sep '44 as opposed to Dec '44.
A little remarked episode with respect to the invasion of Saipan was that an IJN sub was carrying bubonic plague infested fleas to be used against the invading forces. Fortunately for Japan, the submarine was sunk before it could deliver its cargo. The US retaliation would have been horrendous as we had massive stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons.
V-J Day [shortened from Victory over Japan] Was the formal notice surrender, on the afternoon of 15 August 1945 by the Emperor [Hiorhito] in a national radio broad cast. "..."Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in the ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation," Hirohito said, "But would also lead to the total extinction of human civilization."..."
The first Atomic Bomb was dropped at Hiroshima on 6 August 1945: killing approx 70,000. The second bamb was dropped on 9 August 1945: killing approx 40,000.
At that time the predictions were that the allies would lose approximately, an estimated 1,000,000 troops. President Truman was said to be 'haunted by the size of the numbers" (?). In anticipation of those losses, the U.S. Government had ordered some 500,000 extra Purple Heart Medals struck in advance of that invasion. See linked @ http://theamericanpresident.us/images/projections.pdf
That supply of Purple Heart Merdals lasted until the conflicts in the Middle East into 2000.
Bearing in mind that much of the loss of forces was in the aftermath of the invasions of Saipan,Okinawa, and the other battles of the island hopping campaigns of the Pacific.
My interest in Operation Downfall is purely historical. I did not get to Okinawa uintil 1967, and into Japan 1968. Brief visits, to be sure, but was able to see how it was at that time. Prior to that, it was in WWII history in the Med. My Dad was there for 22 months on an LCI, and was there until just after Operation Dragoon{Invasion of Southern France in Aug of 1944].
Erik_MagI wonder what the end of WW2 would have been like if UofChi MetLab hadn't screwed up with their heavy water reactor (only running it 8 hours a day), which would have allowed the Pu production reactors at Hanford to start in Sep '44 as opposed to Dec '44.
Probably not all that different... for us, at least. There would still have been the recognition and fix of the xenon-poisoning issue at Hanford, and I believe development of the actual implosion device had a separate critical path that would still have resulted in Trinity being close to its actual date. There's much more to the weapon than the fissile pit fabrication. I do think I agree that ramping up extractable plutonium a couple months earlier would have allowed pit fabrication in parallel for a larger number of weapons 'at a time' by mid-August or so.
Meanwhile, Stalin's keeping his word about redirecting his troop strength to Japan following VE day would have proceeded on its own schedule, whether or not we would have 'accelerated use of the weapon' to get [insert revisionist argument of choice] before the Russians could fully get there. I doubt the Russians would have taken nearly the prospective casualties the United States would; they'd have used whatever weapons of mass destruction they could after the first suicide attacks, and I suspect they had access to plenty. We might also remember the meaning of the Russian term 'Mir' in the context of the demanded unconditional surrender.
There is a joke I once found amusing, about Barry Goldwater's supposed willingness to use nuclear weapons, that was a parody of a Pepsodent commercial: "You'll wonder where the yellow went/When Barry bombs the Orient". That is what I'd expect the Russians to do (via simpler but ultimately just as genocidal means) if they encountered an attempted war of attrition and suicide: help the Japanese to their assisted suicide in larger and larger numbers, with the best methods available. And I suspect the world would be far the poorer for it, even if it saved dramatic numbers of American lives in the process.
Speaking of Dresden, I was there last summer. On a streetcar ride to take the meter-gauge steam railway to Radebuel, we passed a streetcar stop called "Alte Schlachthof." Old Slaughterhouse. Alongside the tracks in a semi-industrial area away from the centre of town. Do you suppose...
[quote user="Flintlock76"]
Why do I have the feeling that Old Glory (whatever the star count) flies proudly over "Fortress Flintlock" every day, no matter what?
Thanks to everyone here who posted and to all who flew their flags today.
May I attach a YouTube clip recognizing the importance of this day from an old and rather famous World War II veteran? I think it's a message everyone here will appreciate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEf9xMmYuo
[quote user="NKP guy"]
Flintlock76 Consider it done at the "Fortress Flintlock!" And the flag will have 48 stars! "The Flag of Liberation." Why do I have the feeling that Old Glory (whatever the star count) flies proudly over "Fortress Flintlock" every day, no matter what? Thanks to everyone here who posted and to all who flew their flags today. May I attach a YouTube clip recognizing the importance of this day from an old and rather famous World War II veteran? I think it's a message everyone here will appreciate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEf9xMmYuo
While in the political sense she may be a figurehead - SHE IS A LEADER in a world that is currently looking for one.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
NKP guy Why do I have the feeling that Old Glory (whatever the star count) flies proudly over "Fortress Flintlock" every day, no matter what?
In all honesty, not all the time. It depends on the day, the occasion, and the weather. And the flag(s) match the occasion! Not that anyone around here ever seems to notice.
Thanks for that link to the Queen's speech. I couldn't help but think of all the history she's witnessed and was part of, especially after seeing the clip of young Princess Elizabeth in her ATS uniform on the balcony with her parents and Winston. What a day that must have been!
Anyone notice her ATS uniform cap on the desk while she spoke?
54light15 Speaking of Dresden, I was there last summer. On a streetcar ride to take the meter-gauge steam railway to Radebuel, we passed a streetcar stop called "Alte Schlachthof." Old Slaughterhouse. Alongside the tracks in a semi-industrial area away from the centre of town. Do you suppose...
If you look at this link- www.themonarchtavern.com and open it and click on the link that says tavern there are pictures. One is of a large crowd in black and white. That was the gathering outside on VE day. The colour photo is the 90th anniversary of the bar where there was free beer, food and a live band. I'm in that photo with some friends of mine. I'm on the right side, just to the left of the concrete pole in the panama hat.
The Monarch is a former hotel. In Ontario after prohibition, any drinking establishment by law was a hotel. It's in a neighbourhood with houses all around and is a pretty close relative to a British pub in that all ages are welcome and everyone gets along. I hope to hell they survive this covid nonsense.
This link is to the band that plays there on the second monday of every month:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsdRBPwqcVI
They play big band music, but not Glenn Miller and Artie Shaw, but rather Fletcher Henderson, Count Basie, Chick Webb, Duke Ellington and others, the precursors of the wartime bands. I haven't missed a show in about 5 years so depending on when this video was shot, I was there. There's swing dancing too and I am amazed at all the younger people (mid 20s) who are into it and some get pretty energetic like we've all seen in wartime films. And I sure look forward to getting back there.
Murphy- I figured everyone would get that. We are all of an age, right?
Thank you, NKP Guy, for posting the Queen's address on this day. As a teeenage girl, she entered the Auxillary Territorial Service, just many other girls did.
Her father, known in the family as "Bertie," had no thought of being king until his older brother, known in the family as "David," determined that he would marry a divorced woman, and Parliament told him if he did so, he could not reign. The western world should give thanks that he preferred the woman, for he did not regard Adolph Hitler as a dangerous person; indeed, Herr Hitler (as Winston Churchill referred to him) planned to put him on the throne as a puppet after he had defeated England.
Here in Australia, the Queen's message was broadcast a number of times.
When Her Majesty mentioned experiencing the celebrations first hand, I was reminded of a quite amusing 2015 movie...
https://www.imdb.com/video/vi384938521?playlistId=tt1837562&ref_=tt_ov_vi
There are three trailers shown, although the first and third are very similar.
Nobody can watch the extract from George VI's speech without thinking of...
https://www.imdb.com/video/vi806197529?playlistId=tt1504320&ref_=tt_ov_vi
While it isn't clear from the movie, Logue started working with the Duke of York in 1925, and the abdication was in 1936, so the movie compresses things quite a bit.
Peter
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