If I understand it right, when a railroad crossed another existing line, the 2nd railroad was responsible for upkeep of the crossing? What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt?
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Murphy Siding What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt?
"Bankrupt" is open to broad interpretation. Often it was a strategic tool towards another end, So I guess you mean final liquidation type bankruptcy? The reason why I ask is that it's not unthinkable that the solvent railroad might buy the bankrupt line and replace the diamond with a switch if there is potential to originate traffic on the line, making it into a feeder branch?
If one of the lines gets abandoned, the question of upkeep becomes irrelevant since there is no longer any crossing to be maintained. If it is the earlier one that disappears I presume the second railroad will somehow acquire title to the underlying little piece of land, but how that happens will vary. If it goes bankrupt but is still operating, the trustee overseeing the estate will be responsible.
Murphy Siding If I understand it right, when a railroad crossed another existing line, the 2nd railroad was responsible for upkeep of the crossing? What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt?
Responsibility as to who pays what. Most of the places I can think of, now and in the past, the original road maintains the diamond and controls the operation if it's manually controlled. Manual control either by a towerman or direct dispatcher control.
Jeff
jeffhergert Murphy Siding If I understand it right, when a railroad crossed another existing line, the 2nd railroad was responsible for upkeep of the crossing? What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt? Responsibility as to who pays what. Most of the places I can think of, now and in the past, the original road maintains the diamond and controls the operation if it's manually controlled. Manual control either by a towerman or direct dispatcher control. Jeff
While the original line maintains control and maintenance of the location, the 2nd line gets billed for all the costs of operation and maintenance of the location.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD jeffhergert Murphy Siding If I understand it right, when a railroad crossed another existing line, the 2nd railroad was responsible for upkeep of the crossing? What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt? Responsibility as to who pays what. Most of the places I can think of, now and in the past, the original road maintains the diamond and controls the operation if it's manually controlled. Manual control either by a towerman or direct dispatcher control. Jeff While the original line maintains control and maintenance of the location, the 2nd line gets billed for all the costs of operation and maintenance of the location.
Johnny
DeggestyAnd, if crossing protection is automatic, the little XYZ pays the costs of crossing the great ABC. I think of the crossing of the former Mississipppi Central and the former Illinois Central just above Brookhaven, Mississippi--block signals on the MSC's approach as well as the IC's approach.
Works both ways - depends on who the original carrier was.
B&O Haselton Tower on the East side of Youngstown. The tower was on the South side of a 'railroad valley' that held the tracks of the B&O, PRR, NYC and Erie. Erie was the 'prior rights' carrier and serviced the steel mill that was South of the B&O Tower, the Erie's Main tracks were the Northmost of the tracks that were in the 'railroad valley'. The 'crossing' was a non-interlocked series of crossovers across each of the carriers to the Erie's Main. The area was a Statutory Stop for all carriers. Any time there was not a train actively using any of the non-Erie tracks, the Erie crews could start opening up the crossover switches and make their moves - they did not have to get permission from any of the carriers involved - they just did it.
The movements from the steel mill to the Erie Main were 'hot bottle' cars of molten steel being taken to the Briar Hill section of Warren, OH for a steel processing plant there. The empty bottle cars were the return movement
DeggestyI think of the crossing of the former Mississipppi Central and the former Illinois Central just above Brookhaven, Mississippi--block signals on the MSC's approach as well as the IC's approach.
For sheer fun it was difficult to beat the crossing where the 'riverfront line' of the ex-IC past Central Station ran over the multiple tracks down Broadway from the Mississippi bridges. For the longest time this was 'governed' for the IC north and south with a simple searchlight signal ... but in the cross direction with a bunch of MUTCD octagonal stop signs on posts (!) and an indication of strict 5mph speed limit.
This was very expensively rebuilt a few years ago, with a new approach gantry to the west of the crossover, and now east-west trains don't stop and can proceed at a reasonable speed...
The STB (formerly the ICC) calls the shots in the end. In an abandonment or "bankruptcy" the STB has to approve or deny the outcome plus address issues with line crossings, etc. in the procedural & environmental reports. The underlying fee title issue can get really bizarre. (have seen the adverse posession game played more than a few times after the original parties lost track of the facts after a few too many agreement modifications)....Go back and look at what happened in Joe Kohen's backyard between CSX(B&O) & Maumee & Western (N&W/Wabash ... now Pioneer)
General reaction when one line quits, the crossing frog comes out and is set aside with the gap straight-railed for the time being. (Each of those diamond$ is custom built and a PITA to maintain ... better to let things sit in the weeds for a while and not run up the expenses with the surviving railroad beating things into failure/submission.) FRA has rules for temporary circuits that come into play.)
Convicted One Murphy Siding What happened when one of the railroads abandonded their track or went bankrupt? "Bankrupt" is open to broad interpretation. Often it was a strategic tool towards another end, So I guess you mean final liquidation type bankruptcy? The reason why I ask is that it's not unthinkable that the solvent railroad might buy the bankrupt line and replace the diamond with a switch if there is potential to originate traffic on the line, making it into a feeder branch?
It can put a lien against Brand X railroad, but have fun getting satisfaction out of that. MS&N may be saving itself big future costs with removing the crossing frogs and modifying the signal system mui-pronto to do away with a recurring IOE not needed anymore.
(keep the railroad attorneys underemployed)
mudchicken It can put a lien against Brand X railroad, but have fun getting satisfaction out of that. MS&N may be saving itself big future costs with removing the crossing frogs and modifying the signal system mui-pronto to do away with a recurring IOE not needed anymore. (keep the railroad attorneys underemployed)
Generally, the surviving railroad tries to clear it with the local FRA inspectors and a representative of the bankrupt (sometimes impossible) and then approaches it as if they intend at some point to put it back (all pieces and parts at the ready) ... then the years go by.
It doesn't have to involve an at grade crossing. Just got reminded of a recent project where an ACL line went over a former CofG line (Margaret Br) , barely older and abandoned in '64 east of Birmingham. It had been a logging and mining (coal) road before it was a common carrier. It was an All-In-The-Family (lines) deal until CSX shortlined the ACL line. The tunnel/ concrete arch under the 1905 ACL/SAL line became an adverse possession/ acquiessence thing out in da woods.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3369023
The original Best Friend route from Charleston, SC to Augustaa , GA had an example. It became part of SOU RR the NS however never signaled. The SAL crossed the NS line at Denmark, SC . The SAL which crossed th SOU was signaled and sometime in past installed an automated Crossing. The SOU Had permanent approach signals ( permanent yellow ) about 1 mile either side of the crossing.
NS abandoned the line thru Denmark including removing the track.. Around 1998 I observed the permanent approach signal on west side still lit in the weeds. The control bungalow at the crossing still had signals facing both ways on the SOU lit for stop. The SAL sides also showed stop with the 1st signal north of the CP showing approach. Apparently (?) the sutomatic function of the crossing was still in effect. Cannot remember if NS tracks at crossing were removed ?
blue streak 1 The original Best Friend route from Charleston, SC to Augustaa , GA had an example. It became part of SOU RR the NS however never signaled. The SAL crossed the NS line at Denmark, SC . The SAL which crossed th SOU was signaled and sometime in past installed an automated Crossing. The SOU Had permanent approach signals ( permanent yellow ) about 1 mile either side of the crossing. NS abandoned the line thru Denmark including removing the track.. Around 1998 I observed the permanent approach signal on west side still lit in the weeds. The control bungalow at the crossing still had signals facing both ways on the SOU lit for stop. The SAL sides also showed stop with the 1st signal north of the CP showing approach. Apparently (?) the sutomatic function of the crossing was still in effect. Cannot remember if NS tracks at crossing were removed ?
Here is a case in which the road (South Carolina RR) with less traffic was there before the road (built, Columbia-Savannah, as the Southbound RR) which had much more traffic.
Deggesty blue streak 1 The original Best Friend route from Charleston, SC to Augustaa , GA had an example. It became part of SOU RR the NS however never signaled. The SAL crossed the NS line at Denmark, SC . The SAL which crossed th SOU was signaled and sometime in past installed an automated Crossing. The SOU Had permanent approach signals ( permanent yellow ) about 1 mile either side of the crossing. NS abandoned the line thru Denmark including removing the track.. Around 1998 I observed the permanent approach signal on west side still lit in the weeds. The control bungalow at the crossing still had signals facing both ways on the SOU lit for stop. The SAL sides also showed stop with the 1st signal north of the CP showing approach. Apparently (?) the sutomatic function of the crossing was still in effect. Cannot remember if NS tracks at crossing were removed ? Does CSX expect the NS to resume the service, and so maintains the signals? Here is a case in which the road (South Carolina RR) with less traffic was there before the road (built, Columbia-Savannah, as the Southbound RR) which had much more traffic.
Does CSX expect the NS to resume the service, and so maintains the signals?
I don't know about the specific location or today's handling by governmental entities.
I do know about the B&O's WS Tower at Watson, IN. Watson was the point where the B&O's lines to Jeffersonville and Louisville diverged. In addition those lines were crossed over at grade by the PRR's trackage to enter the Naval Ammunition facility at Charlestown, IN - it was big business in WW II. I was working there in 1966 - there were trees 2 and 3 feet in diamater growing out of the tracks on the PRR routes, which were still 'protected' by PRR position light signals that the Signal Maintainer had to keep in good repair for the plant to pass its periodic ICC Signal Inspections. Considering that the PRR was headed to the Penn Centrail fiasco I have doubts that they knew the condition of their condition. I have not been back since I last worked there.
Balt, it sounds as though that crossing at Watson was, so far as higher management was concerned, "forgotten but not gone."
The B&O's double track Pittsburgh& Western subdivision crossed a PRR single track industrial spur at Etna tower near Pittsburgh, Pa. I don't know who was there first. After the spur went unused for several years by PC or CR, Chessie System removed the diamonds. They had to replace them when some cars showed up for the industry.
What's the law regarding one railroad crossing another?
If new railroad A wants to cross at grade existing railroad B, does RR B have to give its permission? Can RR B refuse to allow it?
What if RR A wishes to pass over or pass under RR B...can RR B refuse to allow that?
What if RR A is, or rather was, an interurban line? How does/did that affect things?
Are railroad crossings such as the above covered/governed by federal or state law? (Please note, I'm not referring to maintaining such crossings once built)
Starting with interurbans - in the early years the RR's would object to interurbans crossing their lines at grade and were often able to prevent the crossing early in the interurban period. Many stated began to require RR's to permit crossing at grade, with the interurbans paying for the costs of crossing protection.
IIRC, the RR's had a much harder time blocking an underpass or overpass, though would have say on clearances for overpasses and bridge strength for an underpass.
And they weren't too keen to the idea of learning coal slurry pipelines cross their ROW's to steal their coal business either.
In Michigan during the interurban era, the interurbans were required to be grade seperated from railroads.
NKP guy What's the law regarding one railroad crossing another? If new railroad A wants to cross at grade existing railroad B, does RR B have to give its permission? Can RR B refuse to allow it? What if RR A wishes to pass over or pass under RR B...can RR B refuse to allow that? What if RR A is, or rather was, an interurban line? How does/did that affect things? Are railroad crossings such as the above covered/governed by federal or state law? (Please note, I'm not referring to maintaining such crossings once built)
I am aware of plenty of tales in the bad old days where one railroad would cross another under cover of darkness. (don't blink)
STB has an ombudsman role in this stuff.
I hate to think what was involved with crossings like 21st street in Chicago in its heyday. The costs in all of their forms must have been astronomical.
Consider Brighton Park, which became an interlocking only within the last few years. I believe that NS picked up the tab for installing the interlocking and the signals, which leads me to think that PRR or CR&I was paying for maintenance of the crossing. They may have left the crossing as a statutory four-way stop to keep costs down.
BaltACDWhile the original line maintains control and maintenance of the location, the 2nd line gets billed for all the costs of operation and maintenance of the location.
This really got interesting when both lines were later leased by the same railroad; e.g., AB&C crossed X&W before both were leased by DE&F. A whole lot of taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other would occur in this case. Many Comptometers (remember them?) were worn out in the process.
ChuckAllen, TX
Yet another twist to the diamond maintenance discussion...
In the 1970s, Canadian National subsidiary Grand Trunk Western purchased most of the financially struggling Ann Arbor's line between Durand and Owosso, Michigan, granted AA trackage rights over its own closely parallel route and abandoned most of the AA track. Right off the bat, this eliminated three diamonds in Durand. So, both lines at the remaining diamonds (Flint Sub east & west mains and Holly/Grand Rapids Sub) were GTW owned with AA trackage rights. Also, Central Michigan Railway (former GTW route) used track over the diamonds to switch their trains in Durand Yard.
In the early 1990s, GTW removed the diamonds and made AA and CMR switchback through town using various wye tracks. After a few years of this nonsense, the diamonds were reinstalled when the State coughed up money each year for diamond maintenance.
Most times there was an agreement drawn up showing how much (Often a percentage) of the cost for each part of the crossing. It covered maintenance to be divided (Signals &/or Interlocking), Track, The diamond(s), etc.)between the one or more RRs at the junction (Think of State Line,IN,IL and its 100 plus lever interlocking!). Simply saying each cossing was unique and no solution fits all.
Bob ThatcherIn the early 1990s, GTW removed the diamonds and made AA and CMR switchback through town using various wye tracks. After a few years of this nonsense, the diamonds were reinstalled when the State coughed up money each year for diamond maintenance.
My understanding is that the new diamonds at Durand are OWLS for the ex-AA. Is that correct?
For the reinstallation, CN (GTW) just put back the diamonds they had laid off to the side. Much later (I don't recall when), the OWLS design was substituted. Depending when that was, PM #1225, NKP #765 and even SP #4449 would have used that crossing. The track in question was historically GTW, but they probably don't use it much. Great Lakes Central (former AA) uses it daily, as well as CMR.
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