Ever since I was a kid I loved trains. When I found out that there was an old trainline that passed through my neighborhood in the 1920s I wanted to find out more. I live in Antioch IL. There was a small ice house spur that got ice from the lakes around me. Ive always heard that there is a train in Rock Lake wi after the ice got too thin. Does anyone have any information to back this up? or more info about the ice spurs? Anything is greatly appreciated!!
I can't answer your question Ringo58, but I can say...
aboard!
Ringo58 I live in Antioch IL
Howdy neighbor.
I never heard of that.
In my town in northern Michigan (long before I was born) horses sleds pulled the ice off the lake to the ice house, and the ice sat there until it was shipped out by rail thru the summer. I find it hard to believe that steam engines ventured out on to ice in Illinois.
MidlandMikeIn my town in northern Michigan (long before I was born) horses sleds pulled the ice off the lake to the ice house, and the ice sat there until it was shipped out by rail thru the summer. I find it hard to believe that steam engines ventured out on to ice in Illinois.
Winters have been relatively mild for the past half century - going back a century and more they were much more severe than we have experienced.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lots of legends of that type around. Some even are true, but mostly there were reports or local news items at the time in that case.
Yes, Steam Locos were used on frozen lakes and rivers, but not the size of a mainline standard gauge engine... no Yellowstones, or Big Boys.
Small, narrow gauge 0-4-0's on short sections of track with the ties laid directly on the ice. Some small steam locos could be moved around by a couple of men if it derailed, so it would not be THAT heavy.
And note this lake is in Wisconsin (though only about 35 miles from the border with Illinois), But not southern Illinois where a frozen lake might be questionable for physical support.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
cx500 Lots of legends of that type around. Some even are true, but mostly there were reports or local news items at the time in that case.
I usually consider that most legends have at least a smattering of truth about them, albeit somewhat embellished in the telling.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Ringo58 Ever since I was a kid I loved trains. When I found out that there was an old trainline that passed through my neighborhood in the 1920s I wanted to find out more. I live in Antioch IL. There was a small ice house spur that got ice from the lakes around me. Ive always heard that there is a train in Rock Lake wi after the ice got too thin. Does anyone have any information to back this up? or more info about the ice spurs? Anything is greatly appreciated!!
It often said that these types of lost train accounts are all tall tales made up in bars. I doubt that. It is most likely that they are essentially true, but the details got garbled in bars. The argument against the legends is that no railroad company would leave a valuable locomotive buried or submerged in water. But of course, they would leave it if the cost of recovery exceeded the value of the locomotive-- and that is often the case, not only with locomotives, but will other heavy equipment such as bulldozers.
If you can find strong circumstantial evidence for a lost locomotive, you can search directly at the site. If it is in a lake, you can perform a magetometer search while working on the surface when it is frozen.
It is important to realize that what you are looking for is an historical artifact as a physical piece of lost history, and not a free locomotive that you can restore to operation. The latter tends to be a railfan perception of the objective, and of course they all want to find 4-8-4s or Big Boys. And, since there are none of those, the fans tend to regard lost locomotive legends as being bogus.
Actually most lost locomotives tend to be small such as 0-4-0s lost in quirky mishaps such as construction accidents. But there are also mainline locomotives such as larger 4-4-0s that have been lost. If locomotives are lost submerged in water, they are typically also buried in the bottm. If they were sitting on a solid bottom like sand or rock, they likely would have been recovered. Bear in mind that some lost locomotive events occured on a rail line that was in a different location at the time of loss than it is now or has been in the modern era. Many lines were relocated from their original construction routes.
Euclid Ive heard that the ice companys went bankrupt and left the tracks and locomotives on the ice to let them sink. Ive seen old topographic maps of the lines that used to be there and they go to the right area. The lake is a very small lake and only about 20ft deep in the middle. The story has been told by multiple people and they all seem the go the same. Ive even heard of people taking pictures of it in the late 80s but Ive never seen them for myself Ringo58 Ever since I was a kid I loved trains. When I found out that there was an old trainline that passed through my neighborhood in the 1920s I wanted to find out more. I live in Antioch IL. There was a small ice house spur that got ice from the lakes around me. Ive always heard that there is a train in Rock Lake wi after the ice got too thin. Does anyone have any information to back this up? or more info about the ice spurs? Anything is greatly appreciated!! If you are really interested in this legend, the key is to research the historical record. If this legend is known by a number of people, start out by asking them for any details they have heard. See if you can find any consisitency in the details. Most of all, try to establish the date or timeframe of the loss and the precice location. With those details, you can check historical newspapers and other records. It often said that these types of lost train accounts are all tall tales made up in bars. I doubt that. It is most likely that they are essentially true, but the details got garbled in bars. The argument against the legends is that no railroad company would leave a valuable locomotive buried or submerged in water. But of course, they would leave it if the cost of recovery exceeded the value of the locomotive-- and that is often the case, not only with locomotives, but will other heavy equipment such as bulldozers. If you can find strong circumstantial evidence for a lost locomotive, you can search directly at the site. If it is in a lake, you can perform a magetometer search while working on the surface when it is frozen. It is important to realize that what you are looking for is an historical artifact as a physical piece of lost history, and not a free locomotive that you can restore to operation. The latter tends to be a railfan perception of the objective, and of course they all want to find 4-8-4s or Big Boys. And, since there are none of those, the fans tend to regard lost locomotive legends as being bogus. Actually most lost locomotives tend to be small such as 0-4-0s lost in quirky mishaps such as construction accidents. But there are also mainline locomotives such as larger 4-4-0s that have been lost. If locomotives are lost submerged in water, they are typically also buried in the bottm. If they were sitting on a solid bottom like sand or rock, they likely would have been recovered. Bear in mind that some lost locomotive events occured on a rail line that was in a different location at the time of loss than it is now or has been in the modern era. Many lines were relocated from their original construction routes.
If you are really interested in this legend, the key is to research the historical record. If this legend is known by a number of people, start out by asking them for any details they have heard. See if you can find any consisitency in the details. Most of all, try to establish the date or timeframe of the loss and the precice location. With those details, you can check historical newspapers and other records.
You know, those little 0-4-0's do have a habit of turning up where least expected.
Several years ago one was found in the woods in Sussex County NJ by a woman who worked in a real estate office. She was looking out the window of the office during the winter when the leaves were down, the ground foliage was dormant, and the daylight was just right, and, "What's that out in the trees that looks like a little steam engine?"
Bingo! It was a little 24" gauge 0-4-0 tank engine that once was used by a local commercial peat moss farm that decades ago had no further use for it.
The last I heard there was a cosmetic restoration done on it and it's on display at the Sussex train station museum.
The other thing to bear in mind is that, while we often interpret "train" as a locomotive, the story could be based on some sort of freight car ending up in the lake. If it was already old at the time, and deep enough not to be a navigation hazard, there may not have been any incentive to recover it, except possibly the trucks.
cx500 The other thing to bear in mind is that, while we often interpret "train" as a locomotive, the story could be based on some sort of freight car ending up in the lake. If it was already old at the time, and deep enough not to be a navigation hazard, there may not have been any incentive to recover it, except possibly the trucks.
There are several cars on the bottom of Adirondack lakes, having been carried on barges that capsized.
tree68 cx500 The other thing to bear in mind is that, while we often interpret "train" as a locomotive, the story could be based on some sort of freight car ending up in the lake. If it was already old at the time, and deep enough not to be a navigation hazard, there may not have been any incentive to recover it, except possibly the trucks. There are several cars on the bottom of Adirondack lakes, having been carried on barges that capsized.
And, I forget exactly where, there are some railcars in the northern part of the Delaware River from a derailment in the 1920's. I believe they're ex-Lackawanna, the railroad didn't think it was worth the effort to recover them and just left them there. It's a popular dive site when river conditions are favorable.
Around 1920's the great flood in Mt Holly NC the P&N rr left hoppers full of rock on the bridge in hope the thing did not fall it did and they are still their low water you can make them out.
Russell
There's a rapid in the Lehigh River Gorge known as the "Boxcar Rapid". See the description under "Three Quarter Mile Long" (also the last line of "White Falls") about 1/3 of the way down the page at
https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/detail/id/3137
All the metal referenced in those descriptions came from someplace. I believe several cars went into the river, but not all the pieces were fished out. That derailment had a photo in Trains at the time - early or mid-1960's as I recall.
Also I believe I saw an archbar truck on the western bank of the Lehigh many miles further down - unrelated to that wreck - near the Treichlers Dam, but that's another story.
- PDN.
Back to the topic at hand: If it's a small lake - with a limited amount of ice - I question why a locomotive would have been used instead of horse-drawn sleds which were the generally accepted method back then. The value of the ice would not seem to justify the costs of the locomotive and track, and laying and removing the track each year. Plus, what would the loco during the off-season? If nothing else then there's 8 or 9 months of depreciation with no income.
Even - especially - if the ice company went bankrupt, the locomotive would have had value, as likely would the rails. If not sold for further use, then as scrap for sure. The locomotive would have been easy to move on its own wheels, so not a lot of cost to dispose of it. Letting it deliberately sink would be like letting money sink. Instead, I could believe that it sank accidentally through a soft spot in the ice. Still happens today to snowmobiles crossing a frozen(?) lake or pickup trucks going out to an ice fishing shed, etc. Don't know how the "ice road truckers" know when it's safe to start and end their season, though.
Sounds like the making for a series on the Discovery Channel
I've done a bit of informal studying of the ice industry here in the US, my interest was sparked by the fact my grandfather had an ice business before affordable refrigerators made the ice business obsolete. A pretty interesting study by the way.
I've never read anything that said small locomotives were used for ice block removal from the lakes, anywhere. This doesn't mean it never happened, but personally I doubt it.
For those interested here's a fun website concerning the ice business.
http://www.iceboxmemories.com
I found a couple of short turn of the 20th Century Edison films showing ice harvesting, first cutting and canaling on a lake, then removing the ice to inclined railway cars for loading on barges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guqht4wtUX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQImPkUKJZo
And a short film on the ice industry from St. Clair County MI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIOjP3FmL8A
Narrow gauge panel track is easy to lay on flat surfaces. Logging RR's used to lay temporary track on all sorts of uneven ground, so a frozen body of water is child's play. The engine could very well have been a vertical boiler donkey type used to not only haul flat cars of ice blocks on and off the lake, but had a crane on it to lift the blocks out of the water to the flat cars.
Put the tracks next to where the blocks are to be cut, cut the blocks, run the engine out with a few flat cars (2 on each end?) lift the blocks to the cars, run the "train" to the ice house, move the tracks over a few feet and do it again. The engine could even run the saw to cut the ice.
The "engine" could be used in the "off seasons" for moving ice out of the ice house or maybe it belonged to a logging company within 100+/- miles of the lake and just "borrowed" for a couple of months in the late winter.
Losing the loco in the lake could have been an accident while using it as a crane to lift the blocks, might not have fallen "through" the ice, but into the hole left by taking blocks out. Could also have fallen though because when taking the blocks out, you are lowering the level of the water in the lake, leaving the ice (the track is on) out of the water such that it is not "floating", but a "bridge". Horse drawn ice sleds have fallen through because of the "bridge" collapsing.
The Ice Road of "Ice Road Truckers" is built each winter by the government highway departments. They go out and drill holes to test the thickness and quality of the ice. They also drive smaller trucks out when the ice is estimated to be thick enough (some brave driver!) and that truck drags a ground penetrating RADAR behind it (I'd push it on a looooonnnng pole!) to test the thickness of the ice. And it is run periodically during the season (as well as drilling more test holes). The ice is then leveled by heavy equipment (road graders and bull dozers) and flooding the surface with fresh water to improve the surface AND thicken the ice. One of the road graders fell through many years ago.
Well, I live about a mile south of the Antioch, IL limits. The county is "Lake County, IL." 1) The eastern boundary is Lake Michigan and, 2) there are a whole lot of inland lakes. The lakes are used for recreation spring, summer, fall, and winter. In fact, this area is called "The Chain O' Lakes."
Except for mild winters the inland lakes freeze over with ice thick enough to support ice fishing and snowmobiling. There are various bars along the lake shores. Apparently, the snowmobilers move fast over the frozen lakes visiting these various bars. Well, whatever floats your boat (or snowmobile). The only way anyone could get me to go ice fishing would be to put a gun to my head. It's the same with boats in the summer. Float from bar to bar. But women are wearing bikinis in the summer. So that makes it interesting.
Every year, it seems, the fire department has to go out after one or more snowmobilers who have crashed through the ice. The divers generally recover the earthly remains. The fire department has an air boat that allows them to transit ice, thin ice, and water.
I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to think the lake ice around here would support a locomotive of any type. But, as we all know, the world is full of stupid people.
Who knows? Maybe the locomotive is in close by Rock Lake. Maybe it's not. Who knows? The fire department didn't have an airboat and divers back then.
Semper Vaporo Yes, Steam Locos were used on frozen lakes and rivers, but not the size of a mainline standard gauge engine... no Yellowstones, or Big Boys. Small, narrow gauge 0-4-0's on short sections of track with the ties laid directly on the ice. Some small steam locos could be moved around by a couple of men if it derailed, so it would not be THAT heavy. And note this lake is in Wisconsin (though only about 35 miles from the border with Illinois), But not southern Illinois where a frozen lake might be questionable for physical support.
While it does not suprise me that some one has tried small steam engines on ice, I doubt that they repeated the idea very often. It's a good thing that a few men could re-rail a small engine. I don't know that I would want to be standing on ice around a steam engine that had been stranded there any length of time. Every time the loco goes down the track, hot ashes are falling thru the grates. That plus the sun on the ash and ties would exacerbate the problem of the weight of the ties and rail and trains causing the ties to melt into the ice and snow. Ice fishing shanties have to be constantly blocked up to keep from freezing in. You would need all the men to chip out the ties all at once to move the track, or periodically just to keep it from freezing in too far. The linked video shows the men moving the cut section of floating ice toward the icehouse, where there were ramps that moved it out of the water like they did with logs at a sawmill.
It looks like Rock Lake is about 30 miles north of the east-west boundary between Wisconsin and Illinois. It is hard to say what would be plausible for hauling harvested ice by a small tram over the frozen Lake. People have always taken chances with running equipment on ice. It always works fine unless they break through. In northern Minnesota, there is Many Point Lake which is said to have a loaded log train sitting on its bottom. Ice on frozen lakes is surprisingly flexible, so keeping the load moving could have been a key to continued success.
But I have to wonder if the legend of a train in Rock Lake actually stems from ice harvesting. These legends go back into the 1800s, and there is a lot of lost history dating back to that era. The earlier a legend originated, the more details have been lost to time. Eventually, the legend becomes abbreviated to a train being lost in a lake. But then new details are added over time based on speculation about the core of the legend. Those new detail are pure speculation that is then attach to the core. So as time goes by, the legend persists along with its true core plus a lot of errors in interpreting the details surrounding the core.
If Rock Lake was used for ice harvesting, that fact would likely be well known. So the core of a legend dating from earlier, and largely forgotten, could easily become attached to the ice harvesting operation by speculation.
I notice that as the lake extends south, it is crossed by the Glacial Drumlin Trestle, which is apparently a trestle used by a historic standard gage railroad in that area. I have not researched this, but there are references to at least part of this lake as being boggy with a lot of organic matter. That type of lake bottom can make recovery of heavy items like bulldozers and locomotives practically impossible. Often these lost items become completely buried in the soft bottom.
So if I were researching this legend, I would consider the possibility that its true subject actually involves that standard gage railroad in the Pioneering Era of say 1870-1885. If there is a trestle there today that is left over from an operating railroad originating in the Pioneering Era, it no doubt was a much more primitive and risky trestle in that early timeframe. And the actual details of a legend from that earlier era would most certainly be forgotten.
The best potential source of information would be the old newspapers which would have very likely covered an accident that put a common carrier train into the Lake. But still, many of those papers were published weekly, and there is no rhyme or reason to what they covered and what they ignored. But if this story does actually stem from a trestle collapse or derailment of a standard gage train, I think it would be far more interesting than a mishap in the ice harvesting. It is also possible that there was some type of equipment loss by the ice company and that has blended with the core of the legend which may involve that trestle site.
MidlandMikeWhile it does not suprise me that some one has tried small steam engines on ice, I doubt that they repeated the idea very often.
Visit many north country lakes in the dead of a good, cold winter and you'll see full sized pickups on the ice, often parked next to ice fishing shanties. The curb weight of a full-sized pickup these days is on the order of 2.5 tons.
Safe ice thickness for such a truck is generally shown today as 12-15". The foolhardy may well take a truck out on less than that, which may not be a problem if the ice is "blue," ie, very solid.
Our local utility has been known to drive line trucks over the ice to work on islands.
Ice harvesting usually occurred when the ice was a foot thick. Depending on which guideline you use, that could support upwards of a 8 tons GVW truck.
Another possibility is simply using the frozen lake as a shortcut to bring cut timber to market. One method for hauling logs was the Linn tractor, which often hauled multiple sleds of logs - resembling a train.
Euclid It looks like Rock Lake is about 30 miles north of the east-west boundary between Wisconsin and Illinois.
It looks like Rock Lake is about 30 miles north of the east-west boundary between Wisconsin and Illinois.
I'm pretty sure the Rock Lake that is the subject of this thread is just across the border (barely a quarter mile) from Antioch (I live in Kenosha, WI). If you go on Google Maps and pull up Antioch, IL, then go straight north and just a tiny bit west, you'll see Rock Lake to the west of Hwy 83. It's bordered on the west by Rock Lake Rd. The CN mainline (former Soo Line) runs just east of the lake, so a rail spur in this location would be very plausible.
Kenosha County had a very robust ice harvesting industry in the late 1800s and early 1900s. In fact, it was a major winter commodity for the Kenosha & Rockford (later Chicago & Northwestern) line that ran west from Kenosha through Bristol and Twin Lakes to Genoa City and Harvard, IL (most of it was abandoned in the 1930s). Part of the old rail grade is now the "Ice House Trail" running east from downtown Twin Lakes to Bassett.
kenotrainnut Euclid It looks like Rock Lake is about 30 miles north of the east-west boundary between Wisconsin and Illinois. I'm pretty sure the Rock Lake that is the subject of this thread is just across the border (barely a quarter mile) from Antioch (I live in Kenosha, WI). If you go on Google Maps and pull up Antioch, IL, then go straight north and just a tiny bit west, you'll see Rock Lake to the west of Hwy 83. It's bordered on the west by Rock Lake Rd. The CN mainline (former Soo Line) runs just east of the lake, so a rail spur in this location would be very plausible. Kenosha County had a very robust ice harvesting industry in the late 1800s and early 1900s. In fact, it was a major winter commodity for the Kenosha & Rockford (later Chicago & Northwestern) line that ran west from Kenosha through Bristol and Twin Lakes to Genoa City and Harvard, IL (most of it was abandoned in the 1930s). Part of the old rail grade is now the "Ice House Trail" running east from downtown Twin Lakes to Bassett.
tree68Visit many north country lakes in the dead of a good, cold winter and you'll see full sized pickups on the ice, often parked next to ice fishing shanties. The curb weight of a full-sized pickup these days is on the order of 2.5 tons.
I live in northern Michigan, where people often drive their pickup trucks on the frozen lakes. A few decades ago the local Lions club would have a fundraiser where they would leave an old junk pickup on the ice, and run a pool to see who could guess the date and time when the vehicle would sink thru. Even after draining the crankcase it would still leave a mess, so now they use a tiny shed tethered to the shore. But still it seems like every year, local news reports some ones pickup would break thru the ice. I once thought about driving on the ice, but insurance would not cover it, you have to cover the cost of recovery, and then pay the environmental fine.
I did ride once in a large horse drawn sleigh on the ice. From that I know about how flexible the ice can be. They say the horses know when the ice is safe, and will refuse to go out on it if it's not safe.
So I know quite a bit about the Milwaukee Road Ice Operations from living in the Lake Country of Waukesha County, WI. The Ice would never get thick enough to support a train on it so no they would not lay spurs onto the frozen lake surface. As stated previously the very most they would do would have a horse and buckboard go out on the lake to gather the Ice but most of the time the Ice was not thick enough for that. Primarily what they did was cut channels into the lake and float the ice to the shores after cutting it then use ice tongs onto a buckboard with sawdust, they used a lot of sawdust from local sawmills to seperate the ice into layers and to keep the layers from melting and freezing together.
The railroad spurs as you called them were usually along the mainline and only to an Icehouse. The Icehouse would be regionally supplied by local lakes and buckboards and would be of primarily batten board type wood construction. They would fill the ice houses with ice up to the part where the roof line started and again use sawdust to seperate the ice layers and cubes from one another. The railroad would use refer cars and either haul the ice into the cities (for industries such as breweries that used lots of ice) or they would send them to various locations along the line where they would have a need to re-ice a refer while in transit (not always a large city).
Amazingly in Wisconsin the Ice would not all melt in the high temperatures of summer in the ice house and some of it remained well into the next winter. Milwaukee Road had a lot of sidings in the lake country in various hick towns near lakes for Ice Traffic. Ice Traffic was not really that profitable and like pulp wood traffic of today had a very short haul to it's destination in most cases. Not sure about Southern Cities though and if they got their Ice from the midwest maybe in that case the haul was longer. I only know about the ICE trade between the laker country of Waukesha County and the City of Milwaukee.
This thread is reminiscent of the (very) long-running sort of controversy on RyPN about 'locomotives sunk in flooded quarries'. As with Hissos 'formerly the property of Alfonso XIII himself' the rumors are far more numerous than the actual engines and cars... sometimes notoriously. Len Shaner is one of the more famous poster children for this trope...
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