Let's take your average freight train, in this case one that has enough locomotive power to deal with the ruling grade on the line (according to guidelines), but not much more.
1) Let's say that on level ground, the engineer rolls forward slowly, taking up slack. Then, once all slack is stretched out, he stops without letting any slack occur. The train is fully stretched out. (This is hypothetical.) Could he now start the train moving, all at once?
If the answer to the above is Yes, let's say this train proceeds until it is on the ruling grade and suddenly the engineer needs to bighole it. (Let's say he sees people on the track, but stops before hitting them, then the people leave.) Now the train is stopped on the ruling grade, with no slack. Can the engineer get the train going? Or will they have to double the hill?
Still in training.
Lithonia OperatorNow the train is stopped on the ruling grade, with no slack. Can the engineer get the train going? Or will they have to double the hill?
.
From what I've heard over time, starting a train from bunched was a practice necessitated by the old friction bearings. The oil in the journals was the practial equivalent of roller or ball bearings.
A standing car would push the oil from between the axle and the bearing, leaving a metal on metal situation. Trying to start an entire train in that condition might require more "oomph" than the power could provide.
Starting the train from bunched meant starting only one car at a time, even if it was only a foot or less. The rolling car would quickly pick up the film of oil between the axle and the bearing surface and roll more easily.
With roller bearings, this phenomenon doesn't really exist. The only force to overcome is inertia. I would suppose that starting from bunched might make a little difference, but the need for it would be rare.
Starting from bunched, however, is one reason cabooses are gone. The last car in the train would suddenly go from zero to however fast the locomotive had gotten up to - often enough to knock crew members off their feet.
I recall a situation from my youth, seeing a train of coal hoppers apparently stalled on the grade through Milford, MI (Saginaw line). As I watched from a crossing mid-train, several attempts were made to get the train moving by bunching the train, then pulling out the slack. My most notable memory is the bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang of the empty hoppers as the locomotives pushed and pulled on the train.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As to the noise of slack as it ran in, the most notable example that I remember came one night back in the mid-sixties, when I lived on the main line of the IC 55 miles south of Jackson, Mississippi. I heard a great bang out front, went out, and learned that a southbound freight had to get out of the way of the City of New Orleans--by backing over onto the wrong main. The engineer had started braking right after passing the crossover switches, which were ground throw switches (talk about knowing your territory--no switchstands). The conductor or rear brakeman told him when the rear had passed the switches by throwing a lit fusee up in the air; they had plenty of time to line the switches before the caboose reached them. I did not count the cars, but from previous countings, I would say that there were about 180 cars on the freight. The engineer stopped the freight short of the fouling point--and the City was right at the SB fouling point when the switches were lined for through operation, and was moving when I saw its engine; it obviously had crept up after passing the previous signal.
Johnny
tree68Starting from bunched, however, is one reason cabooses are gone. The last car in the train would suddenly go from zero to however fast the locomotive had gotten up to - often enough to knock crew members off their feet.
One way the world has improved since the age of steam. In the 'bad old days' the engine could pull any train it could start, but (1) it could only start limited resistance 'at one time' without risking slip (or stall) and (2) it needed to get up to particular speed to start winding the reverse back to good cutoff without peaky torque issues, and to get reasonable horsepower at higher cyclic. That meant that an engineer might well be getting the head end to relatively high speed by the time the last few draft gears were coming out - and interestingly high rates of short-term acceleration would be observed... perhaps especially if the brother running the engine didn't care for snakes...
Nowadays with AC drive and roller bearings, the start can be made keeping constant speed once above a couple of mph until the whole train is stretched, then throttled up from there. While most hydraulic underframes work better in buff than in draft, there's still a longer travel and better accommodation of any transient run-ins that might produce 'shock' accelerations.
In other words boring homogeneous conveyor belt computer controlled ho-hum verses human on the spot ingenuity, the 'I think I can' workings effects of steam and man, a drama fit for the stage. Well worth watching and listening to.
Lithonia Operatorthe train is stopped on the ruling grade, with no slack. Can the engineer get the train going?
None of us has a good idea of what today's units can be relied on to haul up a given grade. On a long 1% grade, say -- with 6000 trailing tons in 50 cars, would an ES44 have a 90% chance of making the grade, or more, or less, on a dry day? So we don't know how tough a given tonnage rating is, so we don't know how much margin a unit has to restart on the grade.
As for how much it can start on the level -- first thing to find out is how much pull is needed to start the train rolling. So park the train on a carefully-measured 0.1% grade and release the brakes. Does it start rolling, just by gravity? If not, try 0.2%; I'm guessing that will be enough.
My basic question, I guess, was really about two things:
- How close do the power-needs guidelines cut it regarding the ruling grade (particularly if, say, that one grade is an outlier in relation to the others)?
- How much part does inertia/momentum play in the guidelines and in actual practice? Seems like you guys are saying "little or none."
I had been wondering if the supposition was that (for example) 90% of the time, or more, the train would have a good head of (figurative) steam up when it arrived at the hill; and in the unlikely event the train had to stop on the grade, they could always double the hill. The idea being: don't use more power than necessary, so it can be used elsewhere.
Are power guidelines adjusted in the winter, to account for slippery rails and snowdrifts?
For you engineers: have you ever used the entire load of sand on one trip?
Lithonia OperatorMy basic question, I guess, was really about two things: - How close do the power-needs guidelines cut it regarding the ruling grade (particularly if, say, that one grade is an outlier in relation to the others)? - How much part does inertia/momentum play in the guidelines and in actual practice? Seems like you guys are saying "little or none." I had been wondering if the supposition was that (for example) 90% of the time, or more, the train would have a good head of (figurative) steam up when it arrived at the hill; and in the unlikely event the train had to stop on the grade, they could always double the hill. The idea being: don't use more power than necessary, so it can be used elsewhere. Are power guidelines adjusted in the winter, to account for slippery rails and snowdrifts? For you engineers: have you ever used the entire load of sand on one trip?
On the pre-PSR CSX the Power Corordinators tried their level best to apply exact power to the tonnage rating of a train over the ruling grade of the ENTIRE TRIP - many of the territories the train operated over had tonnage rating much higher than the tonnage rating of the ruling grade. In the case of mountain grades where manned helpers were used, it was expected the maximimun number of powered helper axles would have the proper rating to get the train over the ruling grade. The PoCo's would take great delight in powering at 15,985 ton train with power rated for 16K tons. Tonnage rating was 'Gospel'. Some trains made the grade, a few didn't. Some trains with 17K tons and power rated for 16K tons also made the grade. There are a lot of conditions that enter into a train successfully climbing a grade - weather (hot, cold, wet, dry, snow, ice); exactly where the tonnage is in relation to the max grade segment, are the greasers functioning properly etc. etc. etc.
On the CSX line between New Castle, PA and Willard, the ruling grade is at Akron Jct. In the days I worked that territory, there was a Permanent 10 MPH slow order at the base of the grade which was slightly over 1% from the base in each direction. A ore train with max rated power would frequently stall - the ENTIRE weight of the train was on the grade, in it's entirety. A auto parts train with the same power and tonnage as the ore train would sail right along - the train never had its FULL tonnage on the grade at the same time account the length of the train.
When I worked CSX's Atlanta Division, from Tilford Yard in Atlanta there were three grades encounted to Manchester, GA. At the time I was working the territory, 90 cars was the normal coal train and the normal power was two GE Dash-8's. The coal train weight would be within a couple hundred tons of the tonnage rating for the locomotives assigned. In 'normal' dry weather trains would rarely stall, and the most frequent issue in the train's stalling was the the Train Dispatcher having lined the train past the next control point in advance of Manchester without out having them lined through Manchester - complying with the approach signal in advance of Manchester would result in a loss of momenturn on the grade to the Manchester control point.
At one point in time CSX limited ALL COAL TRAINS to a maximum of 40 MPH - fuel conservation was the 'reason' (excuse). This also cause serveral coal train stalls account of loss of kinetic energy developed in descending one grade to be used in climbing the next grade. The topography from Atlanta to the Southeast is a continuing series of rolling hills - and like most railroads in the South, the tracks are built on top of the lay of the land with little to no grade changes beyond the lay of the land. The Division prevailed upon Headquaters to conduct a test of train operation between Atlanta and Waycross - two trains, same level of power, same tonnage. One operated with maximum of 50 MPH that applied to all other freights and one operated with the 40 MPH coal train restriction. Result of the test was the 50 MPH train used 150 gallons LESS fuel than the 40 MPH train. The 40 MPH train was having to apply brakes descending grades and therefore had to pull harder and longer to climb the following ascending grade.
Current day locomotives have fuel tanks that permit approximately 1000 miles of operating at Notch 8 running conditiond - the sand boxes are sized for that length of trip.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
timzCan he release the brakes and start the train without it rolling backwards down the hill?
timzNone of us has a good idea of what today's units can be relied on to haul up a given grade. On a long 1% grade, say -- with 6000 trailing tons in 50 cars, would an ES44 have a 90% chance of making the grade, or more, or less, on a dry day? So we don't know how tough a given tonnage rating is, so we don't know how much margin a unit has to restart on the grade.
BigJim tree68 Starting from bunched, however, is one reason cabooses are gone. The last car in the train would suddenly go from zero to however fast the locomotive had gotten up to - often enough to knock crew members off their feet. What a crock of BS! Where do you guys come from???A good engineer would gently pull out the slack until the rear notified him that the cab was moving.
tree68 Starting from bunched, however, is one reason cabooses are gone. The last car in the train would suddenly go from zero to however fast the locomotive had gotten up to - often enough to knock crew members off their feet.
What a crock of BS! Where do you guys come from???A good engineer would gently pull out the slack until the rear notified him that the cab was moving.
Unless there was a Hatfield - McCoy feud between Conductor & Engineer. Rough ride guaranteed!
BigJim timz Can he release the brakes and start the train without it rolling backwards down the hill? Yes, I've done it I don't know how many times...with full tonnage...on a 1.75% grade! timz None of us has a good idea of what today's units can be relied on to haul up a given grade. On a long 1% grade, say -- with 6000 trailing tons in 50 cars, would an ES44 have a 90% chance of making the grade, or more, or less, on a dry day? So we don't know how tough a given tonnage rating is, so we don't know how much margin a unit has to restart on the grade. Yes, we do. Tonnage ratings for each type of locomotive are spelled out in the timetable!
timz Can he release the brakes and start the train without it rolling backwards down the hill?
Yes, I've done it I don't know how many times...with full tonnage...on a 1.75% grade!
timz None of us has a good idea of what today's units can be relied on to haul up a given grade. On a long 1% grade, say -- with 6000 trailing tons in 50 cars, would an ES44 have a 90% chance of making the grade, or more, or less, on a dry day? So we don't know how tough a given tonnage rating is, so we don't know how much margin a unit has to restart on the grade.
Yes, we do. Tonnage ratings for each type of locomotive are spelled out in the timetable!
CN took the tonnage ratings out of most subdivision timetables years ago. Probably so crews can't complain too hard or refuse a overtonnage train.
Starting a heavy train on a grade is indeed an art. Stopping with the train stretched is normally beneficial (so the slack won't roll out backwards, potentially hard enough to break a knuckle), but I've had to take slack (bunch it up) to start particularly underpowered trains a few times.
From observation, it seems that DC power will reliably make it up grades as long as the horsepower per ton (HPT) ratio is .1 to .2 greater than the grade. AC power HPT needs to be equal to the grade. As an example, the ruling westbound grade on CN's mainlines from Edmonton, AB to the Pacific coast is 0.4%. Trains with all DC power are often loaded down to 0.6 or 0.5 HPT, while trains with AC power are dispatched at about 0.4 HPT. These trains occasionally stall on certain hills in rain/snow or when the Dispatcher stops them in a bad place (as Balt noted), but most of the time they make it, climbing the grades at around 15 mph.
They tried running 170 car potash trains with only two ES44AC's for a little while, which is about 0.37 HPT. They stalled too frequently, and this operation went back to three units.
While I obviously never worked with cabooses, I've heard many stories from older co-workers who did.
Conductor: "I don't know what you did up there, but the coffee and dishes are all over the floor!"
Engineer: "Don't worry, I'll put them back!"
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BigJim tree68 Starting from bunched, however, is one reason cabooses are gone. The last car in the train would suddenly go from zero to however fast the locomotive had gotten up to - often enough to knock crew members off their feet. A good engineer would gently pull out the slack until the rear notified him that the cab was moving.
A good engineer would gently pull out the slack until the rear notified him that the cab was moving.
If the floor under you goes from zero to even 5 MPH in an instant, you'll notice.
And recall that back in the day, there were no radios...
All I know of that is what I've read. And slack action, accidental or intentional, was a problem.
Do they ever assign tonnage that the engine couldn't start, if it happened to get stopped on the steepest upgrade? Dunno how often they do it now, but it used to be common on UP coal trains east from Cheyenne. The climb is 2.7 miles averaging 0.65% compensated, and a pair of SD40-2s would use momentum from the preceding downgrade to take 13000 tons over the top.
By the way: the tonnage ratings in the timetable are just for show -- don't assume they're realistic. When UP had ratings in the Spec Instr a few years ago, they said GP60s were good for 3400 tons on 1%.
timz Do they ever assign tonnage that the engine couldn't start, if it happened to get stopped on the steepest upgrade? Dunno how often they do it now, but it used to be common on UP coal trains east from Cheyenne. The climb is 2.7 miles averaging 0.65% compensated, and a pair of SD40-2s would use momentum from the preceding downgrade to take 13000 tons over the top.
Offhand, I can think of at least two locations between Edmonton and Vancouver that have short westbound stretches of 0.6% or 0.7%. They are both on single track, so it is rare for a train to stop there, but some have stalled in the past.
Soon after this type of operation began, the 0.4 HPT AC-powered trains 'discovered' a bunch of new places where it is a bad idea to stop them in the rain.
I would go so far as to say that higher horsepower modern locomotives are getting back into the steam territory of being able to move a greater tonnage than they can start. Especially when it is raining or they are out of sand.
On that note, I have never used up a full sandbox's worth on one shift, but I have seen a number of locomotives run out enroute, or simply get released from the shop with no sand at all.
When starting a train and at low speeds, horsepower really doesn't matter as much as weight-on-drivers and wheelslip control. From experience switching with each of them, I think a SD40-2 would out-pull a SD60, Dash-8 or Dash-9, and be about equal to a SD70.
A 1800 HP GP9RM-slug pair will out pull any of the above at slow speeds, despite having less than half the HP. Why? It weighs more, and has two more traction motors.
timz When UP had ratings in the Spec Instr a few years ago, they said GP60s were good for 3400 tons on 1%.
When UP had ratings in the Spec Instr a few years ago, they said GP60s were good for 3400 tons on 1%.
Lol ok.
Maybe as long as the train kept moving above 30 mph, but we know how realistic that is.
Gotta tell my Mom's story... when she was young (6 or 7) her family moved from Indiana to Kansas. Her Father and brother drove a truck with their belongings while her and her Mother took a train; they rode as paying passengers in a caboose of a freight train. (She said they saw her Father and brother waiting at grade crossings a couple of times on the trip. She waived, but they didn't see her.)
At one stop, she said she was up prancing around, trying to stomp on flies, which were thick in the caboose on the hot summer afternoon. A man in a dark blue suit came in the back door and told her, "Little girl, you'd better sit down." She said she had been told not to talk to strangers and she was not about to pay any attention to this man. "Who was he to tell me what to do!" She turned around to face the other end of the caboose and continued stomp at flies.
A moment later she heard some banging coming from the front of the train and she suddenly was sitting on the floor. She got up and sat next to her mother. But she had a hard time sitting still because her bottom hurt. She said that the man in the dark blue suit laughed at her, but she would not look at him.
I never thought to ask her if she was able to kill any flies stomping on them or in the act of suddenly sitting on the floor.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
tree68All I know of that is what I've read.
timzBy the way: the tonnage ratings in the timetable are just for show -- don't assume they're realistic.
timzDo they ever assign tonnage that the engine couldn't start,
BigJim tree68 All I know of that is what I've read. That explains a lot!Do you really think that every engineer out there starts the cab before the engine?
tree68 All I know of that is what I've read.
That explains a lot!Do you really think that every engineer out there starts the cab before the engine?
I have ridden in cabs a number of times - some starts were gentle, some were less than gentle - you soon learned where the welded rail was and wasn't. Depending upon the engineer and the train - the inroute slack action could be severe.
BigJimWhy not? Ours were.
But they were for when the locomotive was fresh out of the factory floor. Oh yeah, those 2 beater C40-8Ws are good for that train! (maybe 20 years ago, and with sand, and with a hill that isn't covered in wet leaves). Some of those engines were so ragged they could barely pull themselves.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BigJimDo you really think that every engineer out there starts the cab before the engine?
Not sure I understand the question.
Even though we generally run 4-5 car trains (13 for Polar), I try to get the slack out before I notch out. But I'm not running 60+ car trains with significant slack between each car. As I noted, even having the floor underneath you go from zero to just walking speed in a split second could cause some balance issues.
CSX didn't put tonnage ratings in the ETT. However, they did have tonnage ratings, both as head end power and as helper power (on territories when manned helpers were required). Note - CSX was not using DPU before I retired so I am unfamiliar with how they are rating units use in DPU service.
WEVERN WCUMB1 BA 79 BA 109 2800 3200 4300 5100 5550 7050 7500 8150
CUMBOY BRUNSY BA 105 BA 76 3950 4500 6000 7150 7800 9900 10500 11400
CUMBOY CUMBED BA 105 BA 178 4600 5250 7000 8300 9100 11550 12250 13300
MILLR1 CUMBOY BA 115 BA 105 2900 3300 4400 5200 5700 7250 7700 8350
NORBRN MILLR1 BA 177 BA 115 9900 11250 15000 17850 19500 24750 26250 28500
MILLYL HAGEWM BAE107 BAS111 2500 2850 3800 4500 4900 6250 6650 7200
MILLR4 CUMBO4 BAQ 0 BAQ 12 6950 7950 10600 12600 13750 17450 18550 20100
MILLMN HAGEWM BAS 34 BAS111 2500 2850 3800 4500 4900 6250 6650 7200
HIGHWM HAGEWM BAS 93 BAS111 2150 2450 3300 3900 4250 5400 5750 6250
HAGEWM MILLYL BAS111 BAE107 4600 5250 7000 8300 9100 11550 12250 13300
HAGEWM MILLMN BAS111 BAS 34 4600 5250 7000 8300 9100 11550 12250 13300
HAGEWM PORTWM BAS111 BAS 49 1500 1700 2300 2700 2950 3750 4000 4350
HAGEWM LURGWM BAS111 BAV 32 3300 3750 5000 5950 6500 8250 8750 9500
LURGWM HAGEWM BAV 32 BAS111 2200 2550 3400 4050 4400 5600 5950 6450
CUMYD2 CONPAY BF 179 BF 270 1350 1550 2100 2500 2700 3450 3650 3950
ROCKWA JOHNSA BF 227 BFC 45 1900 2150 2900 3450 3750 4750 5050 5500
CONPAY CUMYD2 BF 270 BF 179 1900 2150 2900 3450 3750 4750 5050 5500
CONPAY NEWCAY BF 270 BG 58 6900 7850 10500 12500 13650 17300 18350 19950
BRADDA FAIWVY BF 320 BS 302 1950 2250 3001 3550 3900 4950 5250 5700
GLEJUN EDGEPA BF 323 BG 53 1650 1900 2550 3000 3300 4200 4450 4800
GLEJUN WASPAA BF 323 BO 35 1350 1550 2100 2500 2700 3450 3650 3950
JOHNSA ROCKWA BFC 45 BF 227 1900 2150 2900 3450 3750 4750 5050 5500
CALLEN GLEJUN BG 25 BF 323 1900 2200 2950 3500 3800 4850 5150 5600
CALLEN NEWCAY BG 25 BG 58 5600 6400 8550 10150 11100 14100 14950 16200
EDGEPA CALLEN BG 53 BG 25 5600 6400 8550 10150 11100 14100 14950 16200
NEWCAY CONPAY BG 58 BF 270 5900 6750 9000 10700 11700 14850 15750 17100
NEWCAY WILLAE BG 58 BG 204 4000 4550 6100 7250 7900 10050 10650 11550
STERLN NEWCAY BG 155 BG 58 3150 3600 4800 5700 6200 7900 8400 9100
WASPAA GLEJUN BO 35 BF 323 1350 1550 2100 2500 2700 3450 3650 3950
FAIWVY BRADDA BS 302 BF 320 1950 2250 3001 3550 3900 4950 5250 5700
FEDONZ BROWPA BTC 6 PLM 61 1950 2250 3001 3550 3900 4950 5250 5700
ASHTAB CONNEA PLC 1 QD 115 4350 4950 6650 7900 8600 10950 11600 12600
ASHTAB PAINSV PLC 1 QD 153 4350 4950 6650 7900 8600 10950 11600 12600
BROWPA FEDONZ PLM 61 BTC 6 5900 6750 9000 10700 11700 14850 15750 17100
CONNEA ASHTAB QD 115 PLC 1 4350 4950 6650 7900 8600 10950 11600 12600
PAINSV ASHTAB QD 153 PLC 1 4350 4950 6650 7900 8600 10950 11600 12600
The above are the tonnage rating for portions of the CSX Baltimore Division and adjacent territory. The First 2 columns are mnemonics of the origin and destination of the particular rating. The next 2 columns are the assigned milepost designations for the origin and destination. The succeding columns are the ratings for each class of locomotive from 4 axle GP40's to 6 axle AC60CW's. I have lost the specific designation for each column of the ratings. Note, the ratings can and in many cases are different for different directions.
The 1987 CSX empl TTs did show ratings. As I recall an SD50 was rated 18000 tons eastward over the Magnolia Cutoff, where the eastward climb is about 0.1% compensated.
timzThe 1987 CSX empl TTs did show ratings. As I recall an SD50 was rated 18000 tons eastward over the Magnolia Cutoff, where the eastward climb is about 0.1% compensated.
Magnolia Cutoff -
zugmann BigJim Why not? Ours were. But they were for when the locomotive was fresh out of the factory floor. Oh yeah, those 2 beater C40-8Ws are good for that train! (maybe 20 years ago, and with sand, and with a hill that isn't covered in wet leaves). Some of those engines were so ragged they could barely pull themselves.
BigJim
Not around here. If the units weren't having some electrical or mechanical problem, they would pull what they were rated. The only problems I ever remember having trouble with were a couple of foreign units from out west that wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a cat's petoot!
Lithonia Operator Let's take your average freight train, in this case one that has enough locomotive power to deal with the ruling grade on the line (according to guidelines), but not much more. 1) Let's say that on level ground, the engineer rolls forward slowly, taking up slack. Then, once all slack is stretched out, he stops without letting any slack occur. The train is fully stretched out. (This is hypothetical.) Could he now start the train moving, all at once? If the answer to the above is Yes, let's say this train proceeds until it is on the ruling grade and suddenly the engineer needs to bighole it. (Let's say he sees people on the track, but stops before hitting them, then the people leave.) Now the train is stopped on the ruling grade, with no slack. Can the engineer get the train going? Or will they have to double the hill?
Another thing to remember about slack... There is free slack which is the just the small bit of space between the parts in the coupler and draft gear. That actually doesn't add up to all that much in the train.
Most of the slack is from the draft gear. In the old days, it was a spring. Now, it is rubber pads. It's main job is to protect the freight car from damage when coupling. It cushions the blow so you can couple up at a few mph and not destroy anything. So, when you take slack, you are compressing all the draft gear (actually shearing rubber pads in one direction). When you have the train stretched, you have the draft gear extended some. When you start to pull, you are actually extending the draft gear some more - so you never really have a "solid" train, it's always a bit of a slinky.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
A discussion that probably belongs in the Classic forum, however, it speaks to some timeless issues, no matter the motive power being used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBX5JTS60A&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3LQKl28EhsFdIAcXzy0hWHfNz_TwoCLyncAppK5AGw1GZD7qXiBPjMmys
GARY WHITTTree, I was just browsing around. I am from Milford MI. also.
MHS Redskins, Class of '68.
I used to live on the south side, at the top of the hill.
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