Makes sense. One mile up the road all the spaghetti runs together. What remains of tracks from Rock Island, Milwaukee Road, CNW, Illinois Central and Great Northern all come together in a confined area used by BNSF, Dakota & Iowa Railroad and the Ellis & Eastern Railroad. That would be a good area to ease back on the throttle a bit.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
jeffhergertRestricted Limits are starting to replace Yard Limits as a method of authorizing main track occupancy.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Overmod Deggesty Jeff, such signs indicate a permanent restriction? What would be reasons for such a reduction? One such reason would be at a yard where the main traverses the facility with relatively little interruption to 'through' traffic, and the railroad hasn't or doesn't want to impose a strict 'within yard limits' speed (such as 5mph) but still wants to maintain reasonable safety. Remember that 'restricted speed' isn't a velocity; it's a mode of operation: there is still an overall 'speed limit' but within that the engine crew is responsible for ensuring they can stop within half the distance to something they observe to be a risk...
Deggesty Jeff, such signs indicate a permanent restriction? What would be reasons for such a reduction?
One such reason would be at a yard where the main traverses the facility with relatively little interruption to 'through' traffic, and the railroad hasn't or doesn't want to impose a strict 'within yard limits' speed (such as 5mph) but still wants to maintain reasonable safety.
Remember that 'restricted speed' isn't a velocity; it's a mode of operation: there is still an overall 'speed limit' but within that the engine crew is responsible for ensuring they can stop within half the distance to something they observe to be a risk...
Restricted Limits are starting to replace Yard Limits as a method of authorizing main track occupancy. Restricted Limits is more restrictive than Yard Limits because ALL movements ALL the time must be at restricted speed. Yard Limits allows track speed in signalled territory when a train has a signal indication more favorable than an Approach. Restricted Limits doesn't.
In non signalled territory, Yard Limits also always requires ALL movements to be at restricted speed ALL the time. So why is Restricted Limits being used in dark territory? I think RL will replace YL eventually everywhere so they can retire the YL rule from the rule book. YL will go the way of torpedos, consigned to history.
Jeff
SD70DudeMore IT problems?
He had sent me a PM on a significant private matter; I was expecting for him to send something to me, but he was waiting for me to OK his doing that. All resolved.
More IT problems?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Done. My apologies.
Overmod 243129 Check your PM. Watching.
243129 Check your PM.
Watching.
243129Check your PM.
DeggestyJeff, such signs indicate a permanent restriction? What would be reasons for such a reduction?
Jeff, such signs indicate a permanent restriction? What would be reasons for such a reduction?
Johnny
Murphy Siding Related question from the same walk- What does this railroad sign mean: 12"x12" square, white, that says: R1-mileObvious clue, I suppose, is that it's about 1 mile from the rail yard. I just can't place what the R indicates.
Related question from the same walk-
What does this railroad sign mean: 12"x12" square, white, that says: R1-mileObvious clue, I suppose, is that it's about 1 mile from the rail yard. I just can't place what the R indicates.
Restricted Limits one mile.
Restricted Limits are sort of like Yard Limits except that all movements are made at restricted speed. It doesn't matter in Murphy's area, it being non-signalled territory I believe, but in signalled territory within yard limits movement at restricted speed isn't required when operating on a signal better than Approach. In signalled territory within Restricted Limits all movement is at restricted speed no matter what the signal indication is.
Murphy SidingWhat does this railroad sign mean: 12"x12" square, white, that says: R 1-mile
Nothing like that in NORAC that I can find with a quick look. I've never seen it in person.
I'm guessing that it may mean one mile to the end of a slow order, the R meaning "Resume."
DeggestyAh, yes; I remember seeing these hanging on engines.
Seems like I've seen them more on switchers than road engines.
BaltACD zugmann BaltACD Back in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars. Now found on the front bumper of wreck trucks. And if a T&E crew tried to rerail their own cars (at least on our little big RR), you'd be lucky to have a job the next day - but you probably won't. A 'whole different railroad', back in the day. That day is not today.
zugmann BaltACD Back in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars. Now found on the front bumper of wreck trucks. And if a T&E crew tried to rerail their own cars (at least on our little big RR), you'd be lucky to have a job the next day - but you probably won't.
BaltACD Back in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars.
Now found on the front bumper of wreck trucks.
And if a T&E crew tried to rerail their own cars (at least on our little big RR), you'd be lucky to have a job the next day - but you probably won't.
A 'whole different railroad', back in the day. That day is not today.
I've seen and helped train crews rerail their own cars but nobody made any claims. It was done to keep the incident quiet. Same with fixing run through switches. Of course if bad track could be blamed maybe you could get some brownie points for rerailing it yourself..
zugmann Paul_D_North_Jr Then there are the commonly-used hardwood blocks . . . Between retirements and PSR-induced layoffs, going to get hard to find people that know how to use those blocks. They'll just call Hulchers, Corman, or Cranemasters for every little derailment. Then keep the crew OOS due to the costs incurred.
Paul_D_North_Jr Then there are the commonly-used hardwood blocks . . .
Between retirements and PSR-induced layoffs, going to get hard to find people that know how to use those blocks. They'll just call Hulchers, Corman, or Cranemasters for every little derailment. Then keep the crew OOS due to the costs incurred.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txNMwminoiw&t=128s
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ah, yes; I remember seeing these hanging on engines. I never saw any in use, though.
I do remember seeing a car run over a flop over derail--and keep going. The AT&N was moving a car onto the GM&O track used for interchange; a brakeman was riding the car and winding the brake--and the car did not stop, but somehow rode over the derail and stayed on the track. The main problem was that no AT&N man had a key to the GM&O lock on the derail--but the GM&O section formena lived across the street, was at home, and he had a key!
Paul_D_North_JrThen there are the commonly-used hardwood blocks . . .
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Top one in ther photos posted by BaltACD is a "butterfly"; the bottom 3 are a "camel's hump" type.
Then there are the commonly-used hardwood blocks . . .
- PDN.
BaltACDBack in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars.
DeggestyThanks, Paul and Dan. The sign warning of the jump frog certainly will cause wonder in the mind of anyone who knows nothng of railraod frogs. I think of the story of the new hire trainman who was told by the conductor, after a car had derailed, "Go get a couple of frogs." After too long a period of time, the young man returned, saying, "I couldn't find any frogs; will a couple of toads do?" He had found two toads.
The sign warning of the jump frog certainly will cause wonder in the mind of anyone who knows nothng of railraod frogs.
I think of the story of the new hire trainman who was told by the conductor, after a car had derailed, "Go get a couple of frogs." After too long a period of time, the young man returned, saying, "I couldn't find any frogs; will a couple of toads do?" He had found two toads.
Back in the day when it was routine for 'butterfly replacers' to be carried on locomotives for jobs that worked industries (where track was less than great). The crews would then claim a 3 hour arbitrary payment for rerailing cars.
Thanks, Paul and Dan.
Good explanantions, Dan and link to a good photo - thanks!
BaltACD - you have to visualize the operation of these things in 3-D, which can be hard. One thing to realize is that for a diverging move, the support and guidance transitions from the usual wheel tread and flange respectively, to the wheel tread and wheel rim until it crosses the through route rail, then support transitions to the flange and guidance comes from the back of the wheels against the raised wing of the frog in one direction and the guardrail in the other direction. Note that the angles are so shallow that some of these actions are happening simultaneously - the wheel is supported by its tread for a considerable distance after the flange has crossed over the through route rail (3" wheel tread width x No. 10 frog = 30" distance altogether, although at the ends it's pretty miniscule).
It would be useful to have a series of annotated cross-sections depicting this, but I haven't ever seen that. (If I wind up with more time off . . . ).
BaltACD dpeltier BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap. See the ramp for the trailing point move - don't see one for a facing point move!
dpeltier BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap.
BaltACD How does a facing point diverging move happen?
How does a facing point diverging move happen?
I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked...
The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap.
See the ramp for the trailing point move - don't see one for a facing point move!
The closure rail itself is simply ramped up so that the ball of the curve closure rail is slightly higher than the ball of the straight rail by the time it gets to the gap. There's no flange bearing until you get past the gap.
You can see this ramp better in the photo at
http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10670249
Dan
dpeltier BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN. How does a facing point diverging move happen? I'm gonna stray off-topic a bit, but since you asked... The curve closure rail leading from the switch point to the frog is ramped up slightly just before the flangeway gap. The wheel rides (on it's tread) up this ramp and then "jumps" over the flangeway gap. After the jump, the wheel is in free fall (just like it is for a conventional high-angle frog) until it hits the ball of the straight-route rail. But because it started off higher than that rail, it lands with the flange, not the tread, on the ball of that straight-route rail. The casting that the wheel encounters after riding over the straight-route rail (on its flange) starts off basically flat, then a groove develops on the field side of that flat surface that gets deeper and deeper. The flange (which is supporting the wheel) runs into that groove and goes lower and lower relative to what will eventually resolve into the ball of the rail. When it gets low enough the wheel tread contacts the ball and the fun is over. This type of frog has become widespread over the last decade. More recently, railroads have also started deploying "vertical lift switches", which basically do for switch points what flange-bearing designs did for frogs. Google it for more info. Something else to realize is that the extremely small contact area of a wheel riding on its flange causes relative high rates of wear on the "ramp" surface that the flange rides on (and on the ball of the rail where the flange rides on it, for that matter). Of course the whole idea of a lift frog is that you only use it where tonnage on the diverging route is very low, so this relatively high rate of wear per ton doesn't cause a significant rate of wear per year. But it is one of the issues that has to be dealt with when trying to use flange-bearing technology on a higher-tonnage route. For yards you can get a "partial flange-bearing frog". This is basically a self-guarded frog with a slightly shallower-than-usal flangeway. For wheels with a very hollow tread, the wheel rides on the flange across the gap; for conical wheels, it rides on the tread and jumps the gap just like a conventional self-guarded frog. The advantage is that by having the worst-profiled wheels ride on their flanges, you remove the very high impacts that result when these wheels jump the gap. By having "normal" wheels ride on the ball of the rail, you slow down the wear rate on the flangeway floor. Of course even if the flangeway does eventually wear, the result is just a deeper flangeway - which just gets you back to a conventional self-guarded frog. Dan
BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN. How does a facing point diverging move happen?
Paul_D_North_Jr What someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN.
Link to a photo and description:
http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html
You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation.
Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout).
After the jump, the wheel is in free fall (just like it is for a conventional high-angle frog) until it hits the ball of the straight-route rail. But because it started off higher than that rail, it lands with the flange, not the tread, on the ball of that straight-route rail.
The casting that the wheel encounters after riding over the straight-route rail (on its flange) starts off basically flat, then a groove develops on the field side of that flat surface that gets deeper and deeper. The flange (which is supporting the wheel) runs into that groove and goes lower and lower relative to what will eventually resolve into the ball of the rail. When it gets low enough the wheel tread contacts the ball and the fun is over.
This type of frog has become widespread over the last decade. More recently, railroads have also started deploying "vertical lift switches", which basically do for switch points what flange-bearing designs did for frogs. Google it for more info.
Something else to realize is that the extremely small contact area of a wheel riding on its flange causes relative high rates of wear on the "ramp" surface that the flange rides on (and on the ball of the rail where the flange rides on it, for that matter). Of course the whole idea of a lift frog is that you only use it where tonnage on the diverging route is very low, so this relatively high rate of wear per ton doesn't cause a significant rate of wear per year. But it is one of the issues that has to be dealt with when trying to use flange-bearing technology on a higher-tonnage route.
For yards you can get a "partial flange-bearing frog". This is basically a self-guarded frog with a slightly shallower-than-usal flangeway. For wheels with a very hollow tread, the wheel rides on the flange across the gap; for conical wheels, it rides on the tread and jumps the gap just like a conventional self-guarded frog. The advantage is that by having the worst-profiled wheels ride on their flanges, you remove the very high impacts that result when these wheels jump the gap. By having "normal" wheels ride on the ball of the rail, you slow down the wear rate on the flangeway floor. Of course even if the flangeway does eventually wear, the result is just a deeper flangeway - which just gets you back to a conventional self-guarded frog.
Paul_D_North_JrWhat someone was thinking of above is an "jump" or "lift" frog. They're different because the the wheel is lifted so that the flange is up to the same level as the running rail of the through route so the flange can roll across the top of that rail. Link to a photo and description: http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2018/02/jump-or-lift-frogs-in-railroad-turnouts.html You really have to study these to figure them out, unless you can see one in action or an animation. Related is an "OWLS" = One-Way Low Speed crossing frog (diamond crossing), where one track completely crosses another without the routes joining (which would be a turnout). - PDN.
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