Group,
This may have already been reported here but if so, I missed it. The WP&Y is buying ten new powerful locomotives. This was reported last month here:
https://skagwaynews.com/2020/02/10/wpyr-spends-millions-on-larger-more-efficient-locomotives/
There's something funny or odd that strikes me about this. Why would they spend that kind of money on tourists? It seems to me they might actually have an ulterier motive or plan up their sleeve.
Does carrying tourists warrant that kind of firepower? Hmmmn. Interesting thought there.
Anybody have any ideas?
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M Cain Group, This may have already been reported here but if so, I missed it. The WP&Y is buying ten new powerful locomotives. This was reported last month here: https://skagwaynews.com/2020/02/10/wpyr-spends-millions-on-larger-more-efficient-locomotives/ There's something funny or odd that strikes me about this. Why would they spend that kind of money on tourists? It seems to me they might actually have an ulterier motive or plan up their sleeve. Does carrying tourists warrant that kind of firepower? Hmmmn. Interesting thought there. Anybody have any ideas? Regards, Fred M. Cain
I imagine that keeping a 60 year old motive power roster costs a lot of both money and manpower. Much of their passenger load arrives on Cruise Ships - those vessels cost a lot to operate and have schedules to keep - a locomotive breakdown that causes passengers to return to their cruise ship 8 to 12 hours later than scheduled won't make the Cruise Lne Operator very happy - especially if it happens more than once every few years.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The White Pass route has grades of up to 4%. It takes A LOT of power to haul even light narrow-gauge passenger cars up a mountain like that.
As Balt alluded to, the White Pass locomotive roster is currently composed of old GE and MLW units, the newest of which is nearly 40 years old. Locomotives do have long lifespans compared to other heavy equipment, but White Pass is due for a fleet renewal.
The new locomotives will be expected to run reliably for 20-30 years, and White Pass has now intention of slowing down. This justifies the investment.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
What I'm curious about is why they bought locomotives with outside walkways. All their units have been cold weather covered wagons
No nose door as well..
Looks like they are called E3000CC-DC
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bl262000/6416578577/
Maybe the Geoligists have located another Ore Body??
Ask M. M .
Thank You.
Mining activity in the Yukon is solid. Exploration has curtailed somewhat after a number of banner years.
https://cambridgehouse.com/news/7950/five-mining-companies-that-are-growing-in-the-yukon
I don't think the White Pass and Yukon is involved in hauling ore at this point but never say never. Things can turn on a dime.
Electroliner 1935 What I'm curious about is why they bought locomotives with outside walkways. All their units have been cold weather covered wagons
Their original GE diesels were covered wagons, however their MWLs were road switcher type. What is suprising is that even thought the newest units are 1/3 heavier, they are on 4 axles instead of 6 axles. I guess they upgraded their track and ROW.
EDIT: It occured to me that maybe those are shop trucks, maybe even SG.
NDGMaybe the Geoligists have located another Ore Body??
A few years back, a mining company near Whitehorse wanted to move some ore (iron?) to Skagway. It would have involved reopening the north half of the line. However, the company that at the time controlled the line, was only interested in the tourist passenger traffic. Also, proposals for rail lines to Yukon mines always seemed to call for the standard guaging of the White Pass line.
rdamonNo nose door as well..
I don't see any steps or hand-holds on the nose. Would it be SOP to use a ladder for maintenance on lights, etc.?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Miningman Mining activity in the Yukon is solid. Exploration has curtailed somewhat after a number of banner years. https://cambridgehouse.com/news/7950/five-mining-companies-that-are-growing-in-the-yukon I don't think the White Pass and Yukon is involved in hauling ore at this point but never say never. Things can turn on a dime.
Most of the products in the linked article seem high value, like gold , platnum, and copper cathode, which probably are worth trucking out. No mention of the Faro mine, whose lead-zinc concentrates used to be hauled by the WP&Y. Is that mine beyond revival?
A few points-
The first four of these units will be those constructed in 2012 which were intended for Qube in Australia, but were not delivered. I've seen this attributed to a cancelled order and an NRE speculative build, but can't confirm either.
The last six are supposed to be SD40 rebuilds on new frames to avoid Tier IV. Not sure how they're going to get that to work.
They'll ride on Bradken 5650 trucks, which were originally a Montreal Locomotive Works design.
WP&Y is now owned by a cruise ship firm. I don't think they expect freight anytime soon.
The existing DL535s and shovel noses are aging, but parts should be readily available. The E3000s should make things easier/cheaper, however.
Little more than the shell remains of the original GE locomotives. They're on average only about 10 years old where the mechanical and electrical systems are concerned.
NDG Maybe the Geoligists have located another Ore Body?? Ask M. M . Thank You.
(Hope the track and bridge structures don't suffer from these larger beasts)
During tourist season, it's heavy traffic on the line on an orchestrated schedule to keep it all moving out and back from the cruise ships (run like streetcars?)
Saw a picture somewhere and they were 6-axle.
Here's the manufacturer's page for the Bradken 5650 trucks -- unfortunately this appears to be one of those 'sites' for which you have to Contact the Local Representative if you want any technical information (after which you can expect either long delays, if not a paying prospect, or endless sales call attempts/emails if you are...)
I encourage someone with more patience, or perhaps deeper pockets, to post detail here.
Fred M CainIt would just seem to me that a grand total of four Diesels (in addition to their current roster of older units) ought to be able to easily handle four round trips a day. How many round trips are they looking at?
When I was there in sept 2013, there were 4 cruise liners in port (the inside passage ports all seemed to have a docking capacity for 4 ships, and on my trip they were always at capacity, and in Juneau a fifth ship lightered passengers into port). The trains backed up to each dock, and there was an AM and PM train at each ship, so 8 trains a day just for the ships. Plus there were a couple of trains from the Skagway station, so a total of 10 trains a day to White Pass, with one or two of them going further to Fraser or Carcaross. Most of the trains were multi-units with 10-12 cars.
Here is a broadside view of the Qube locomotives. Six axle units.
https://railpictures.net/photo/726986/
Well, group, I sent an e-mail to the WP&YR, not really expecting an answer, asking them if they would consider restoring the line from Carcross to Whitehorse. However, they did respond!
They stated that they "…have no announced plans to restore service to Whitehorse." Hmmmn. That word "announced" kinda jumped out at me. Reading between the lines, it sounds like they have no intention of restoring service to Whitehorse anytime soon but neither is such an idea completely off the table.
The haulage of ore was not mentioned nor did I ask about it. However, it could be that they might one day see it as desirable to provide tourists with a longer ride all the way to Whitehorse. Better yet, there might be more hotel, restaurant and entertainment facilities in Whitehorse than in Skagway - or at least as many. Perhaps they could offer tourists a trip to Whitehorse where they could spend the night in a hotel and part of the day in Whitehorse returning to their ship the next day.
But, of course, I'm speculating here. It was, however, mentioned in a TRAINS Magazine article a few years ago that they might someday restore the north end of the line. However, for trains to reach downtown Whitehorse again, that might be an issue. I found an online article from a Yukon newspaper mentioning that much of the track intown "has been demolished". However, Google "street views" show it as still intact albeit badly overgrown with brush in places and grade crossings paved over. I don’t know how old those images are, though. They might be 15 years old or older. If they are that old, part of the in-town track may have since been dismantled.
Once you get north of Carcross the scenery gets rather less interesting, mostly through forest from what I remember. Compared with scenic views south of Carcross, very much a disappointment. That portion would serve a transportation role rather than an exciting tourist experience, and the transportation need is unlikely to be sufficient to come even close to covering operating cost, let alone the initial rehabilitation costs. Just before entering Whitehorse the railway and road squeezed together against some unstable bluffs with the Yukon River on the other side, and I have no idea how that area is today.
John
cx500 Just before entering Whitehorse the railway and road squeezed together against some unstable bluffs with the Yukon River on the other side, and I have no idea how that area is today. John
Just before entering Whitehorse the railway and road squeezed together against some unstable bluffs with the Yukon River on the other side, and I have no idea how that area is today.
John,
Once again, trying to use Google "Street View", I can see the track running along the bottom of the bluff and it appears to be fine except for a stretch of a few hundred feet where it looks like it's been covered by a rock slide. I don't think that would be hard to clear but if the Highway Dept tries to insist that the railroad stablilize the bluff in the process, that could prove to be a deal killer.
Also, I had a hard time following the right of way south of Whitehorse on Google Earth. It appears to disappear only to reappear again. Does anybody have any additional information on its status?
Here is what David Lustig said (quoting Carnival) in the December, 2018 TRAINS article.
"We feel that maintaining the right of way between Carcross and Whitehorse is possibly a future opportunity for future tourist traffic for the White Pass & Yukon Route," the railroad says in a statement to Trains News Wire. "Our tentative initial plans are to clear the brush and the communication wires over a several year period. The necessary costs of replacing bridges, culverts, roadbed and track are considerable. However, while we have no immediate plans to provide passenger service between Carcross and Whitehorse, we want to preserve that opportunity in the event traffic warrants restoring this service."
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/12/17-white-pass-rebuilds-equipment-plans-expansion
That actually sounds pretty upbeat. Or, as about as upbeat as it gets at this point in time. Will it happen? Maybe. As the news stands with the coronavirus, Carnival is going to be in for a bad year this year. So, I wouln't expect anything to happen anytime soon until they figure out where they stand financially.
Now here is a most interesting article from last summer. I have no idea what the implications are for the WP&Y but the very idea of shipping ore out of Skagway is not completely dead - whether the the WP&Y hauls it or not.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/yukon-ak-skagway-ore-dock-1.5249974
The Minto Mine was mentioned in the article. I think, according to Google, that's about an hour's drive NORTH of Whitehorse.
Hmmmmn. Sehr interessante !
-Fred M. Cain
http://www.emr.gov.yk.ca/mining/minto.html
Minto trucks a concentrate to Port ( Skagway)
The open pit is closed.. all the Mining is underground drill, blast, muck out with the Mill for mineral processing on site.
Its on a 2 week in- 2 week out rotation.
Those Qube locomotives aren't exactly the prettiest dizzels around, but what the hell, when you come right down to it they don't have to look good, they just have to work.
The WP&Y have had hood units since 1969.
These are Alco DL-535 units, some of which were started at Schenectady but completed in Montreal.
Peter
Overmod Here's the manufacturer's page for the Bradken 5650 trucks -- unfortunately this appears to be one of those 'sites' for which you have to Contact the Local Representative if you want any technical information (after which you can expect either long delays, if not a paying prospect, or endless sales call attempts/emails if you are...) I encourage someone with more patience, or perhaps deeper pockets, to post detail here.
The "5650" might be a drawing number...
If so it may be an MLW or Dofasco drawing.
These trucks are a lightweight version of the MLW-Dofasco trucks used under M630 and M636 locomotives. The design dates back to 1970 and was used under the Goodwin built DL-500G. Most of the 45 units built have remained in use in some form, extensively rebuilt in some cases with FDL-12 or 645F3 engines. Although lighter, the wheel diameter and wheelbase are the same as those on the domestic MLW units. This may be the case with the 36" gauge trucks.
The earliest trucks I've seen lettered "5650" are those under the Goninan built CM30-8 cab units dating to 1990. These were cast in Canada by Dofasco.
As well as the NREC "1100 class", the 5650 trucks are used under their main competitor, the Cummins powered Motive Power MP27C and MP33C.
It is relatively common to see locomotives with the the recent trucks coupled to those with the Australian cast 1970 trucks, and the design similarity is clear.
I believe the WP&Y DL535 locomotives are the prototypes for the LGB large scale diesel locomotives.
https://www.lgb.com/products/details/article/25556/75/?tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bbacklink%5D=75&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bpage%5D=1&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bperpage%5D=10&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bera%5D=&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bnewonly%5D=0&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bgaugechoice%5D=37&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bgroupchoice%5D=97&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bsubgroupchoice%5D=&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bfilter%5D=1&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5Bpagesort%5D=artnrasc&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5BbrandId%5D=7&tx_torrpdb_pi1%5BnoPaging%5D=
https://railpictures.net/photo/707445/
https://railpictures.net/photo/693241/
https://railpictures.net/photo/514845/
https://railpictures.net/photo/514207/
https://railpictures.net/photo/490823/
https://railpictures.net/photo/490584/
https://railpictures.net/photo/489493/
https://railpictures.net/photo/370670/
Fred M CainIf it gets bad enough, there could be a lot of people who would balk at taking a cruise. Carnival could go bankrupt. In that worst case scenario, the line to Whitehorse will never get repaired.
There'll always be a resumption of cruise traffic -- even if millions of potential customers were to die in the transient plague waves.
And there'll always be some operator, or group of people, who will buy the ships and other assets from a 'bankrupt' Carnival and start up the service again.
WP&Y doesn't give a crap who the cruise operator is, so long as they have marketing arrangements with them and can accommodate the 'butts' in seats and at attractions.
I give the 'scare' no more than a few extra months (which in my uncredentialed but I think knowledgeable opinion should be no more than weeks) before it will have run its effective course, and 'tourism' to northern points becomes thinkable again as a non-stranding risk. Any presumptive work to Whitehorse will likely continue on some version of that assumption ... as any actual restoration work wouldn't even commence for some months at the earliest, and likely wouldn't be 'complete' net of buildout of suitable atttraction at Whitehorse for years.
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