Miningmanat is the purpose of the government? If it won’t govern, we should dispense with it — “Have done with this rubbish of a state,” in the words (admittedly in a radically different context and with questionable sincerity) of Stalin. Erin O’Toole, Conservative MP and leadership candidate, has rightly called for the use of whatever force is necessary (it would be minimal) to end the blockades, and of course he is correct."
Ahh,...the Balkanization of Canada? That would be an interesting, albeit extreme outcome.
Ridiculous. Of course he was pardoned. He did nothing. Also won the largest settlement in terms of $'s against the perpetrators , the same Comey- Mueller gang. Punishing someone with jail time because their opinions don't match theirs.
Either we have a country or we don't. Simple as that.
Miningman "....an Anglo-French invasion of Canada displacing and enslaving the real Canadians."
"....an Anglo-French invasion of Canada displacing and enslaving the real Canadians."
Yeah, well, that's kind of what happened over the past 400 years in many areas (note that I deleted the word "enslaving").
I find it hard to take anything Lord Black writes seriously, in light of his past criminal convictions (he was pardoned more recently by President Trump).
For those unaware of the history of Crown-Native legal relations in Canada, the briefest possible summary is that Treaties covering most of the country were signed between Government and Native representatives. As in the U.S, the Natives were moved onto reservations and new, mostly European settlers moved into the rest of the land.
But most of British Columbia was not covered by these Treaties, and both the Provincial and Federal Governments ignored this "oversight" for decades. Native peoples were simply pushed out of the way whenever it was convenient. The construction of the Kenney Dam (to power the Alcan Aluminium smelter at the new town of Kitimat) was one of the worst cases:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenney_Dam
Multiple court decisions over the past 50 years have slowly confirmed and re-affirmed that the Native peoples of British Columbia do have legitimate claims to ownership of the lands that they historically occupied. But the courts have also ruled (including in the most recent Trans-Mountain case) that while the Government must ensure proper consultation and compensation occurrs, the Native peoples do not have the power to unilaterally stop a resource project like a pipeline.
Here is one of the more recent land claim decisions, interested legal minds can work their way back in time from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsilhqot%27in_Nation_v_British_Columbia
A summary of the most recent Trans-Mountain case:
https://www.npr.org/2020/02/05/803002446/canadian-court-clears-the-way-for-trans-mountain-pipeline-expansion
For the record, I personally support the Coastal GasLink project, because the Company has conducted years of consultations and has signed compensation/benefit agreements with the elected representatives of each and every Native group along its route.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
MiningmanI did complain to management and was told " it's an expression of frustration".
The flag is a 'fine' example of tolerable speech -- it's the old marine convention of an upside-down flag connoting 'I'm in distress'. Quite frankly you should do it too, and explain precisely what it is if anyone thinks it means 'solidarity' with those thinking they're merely disparaging the country like inverting the pentangle for Baphomet.
Where the real fun comes in is that I believe you can find some instance of hate speech in someone calling on a Canadian to leave Canada. At the very least you can draw some highly interesting parallels with other potentially 'discriminated-against' groups -- and continue stressing the point that apartheid is abhorrent not just when some notion of historical 'privilege' is doing the discrimination. (As with the perversion of 'racism' in the United States in recent years.)
I sympathize greatly, at least in principle, with the First Nations wanting the instruments of political oppression off 'their' land. By the same token, I would sympathize with other groups establishing 'blockades' of routes to and from First Nations land, interdicting transfer of either Canadian wealth or Canadian goods from areas that claim independence from Canadian law or society to the extent of interdicting traffic, but continue to think they can fairly trade or otherwise benefit without demur.
Euclid, this may shed some light on your question. These are excepts from Conrad Black's column this weekend.
EuclidRegarding your comment about manifest destiny, I agree that this dispute in Canada is all about that. It is not just about a pipeline.
Thanks Euclid, sincerely. That was the main point that I really wanted to make. Various interpretations of modern property law are not going to resolve this.
Sooner or later someone is going to say enough is enough out west in Canada and the First Nation people that are doing these blockades are going to run into a buzzsaw of people ticked off enough to basically say sorry but we have had enough from you. When that happens which side will the Government come down harder on those that have been breaking the law by refusing to remove the blockades or those that took the law into their own hands and forcibly removed them. My guess based on how they have been handling them with kid gloves will be those that said enough is enough and did what the Government should have done weeks ago. What is it going to take hundreds of people running out of propane for Treadau to finally grow a spine let alone a set of balls.
In this dispute between the hereditary chiefs and the Canadian government, which side is legally in the right? Or is that point also in dispute?
So PM makes a statement that the blockades must come down and the response is more blockades! Now in Saskatoon.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-new-saskatoon-rail-blockade-pop-up-despite-trudeaus-call-for/
SD70DudeI have a few friends who worked in the Saudi and Libyan oilfields. They have ZERO environmental protections over there, but since it is already a seemingly lifeless desert none of the protesters over here seem to care. On top of that, buying oil from most places outside Canada, the U.S, or the North Sea supports an Authoritarian regime of one form or another.
On top of that, buying oil from most places outside Canada, the U.S, or the North Sea supports an Authoritarian regime of one form or another.
With the Kashoggi 'affair' we have seen what happens to Saudi protesters, even those outside the confines of the country.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Chinese built great "Treasure Ships" that dwarfed Columbus' little Santa Maria, 100 years before his voyage across the Atlantic.
They were more than capable of making long voyages at sea. A trans-Pacific expedition would not have been out of their reach. And perhaps the same internal political decisions that ended the treasure expeditions also killed any further eastward voyages.
Here's one of the things Admiral Zheng He's great fleet brought back to China:
Vince, thanks for the support!
'Dude, thanks for the history links, I'll read them with interest. Louis Riel and the Metis', I've heard of them, looking forward to learning more.
Vince, it's interesting you brought up the Chinese. Asian scholars have discovered fragmentary, but tantalizing evidence of Chinese mariners reaching the west coast of North America supposedly before the time of Columbus' voyages. They aren't sure if it happened, or if it did happen why the Chinese never came back. Some think they (the Chinese) didn't find anything of interest, some think the emperor at the time wouldn't put up the money for a second expedition. Did it happen? Who knows?
Interesting to speculate, what if the Chinese came and stayed? A highly organized, technologically advanced, and disciplined Asian migration instead of a European one?
Wayne
PS: Vince, you want a perfect squelch? Next time you're told "Go back to where your people came from (Since she doesn't mean Hamilton) tell her it's not possible. The Nazis wiped it off the map.
Some people have no idea what genocide really means.
Miningman Why is CN not diverting their trains onto Canadian Pacific?
Why is CN not diverting their trains onto Canadian Pacific?
CP probably won't take them, due to lack of capacity and fear of being blocked.
CN's line is double track all the way from Toronto to Montreal, with a third track in places (paid for by VIA Rail). About 20 freight trains use it each day, far more than are found on CP's line, which I believe is mainly single track. The two lines run practically next to each other for long stretches, and even the most idiotic of protesters would soon clue in to what was happening.
CP is now getting blocked in BC, near Kamloops. They aren't diverting any trains over CN, not yet anyway. We don't have any spare capacity anyway, even with a supposedly slow economy it's still gridlock on the mainline.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6575978/rail-blockade-kamloops-chase-bc/
My attempt at humour was not meant to detract from or minimize the racism implied in her statement to you.
Convicted One Nowithstanding all that, please go back and re read my comment pertaining to manifest destiny, are you saying that anything about my statement was untrue or inaccurate?
Nowithstanding all that, please go back and re read my comment pertaining to manifest destiny, are you saying that anything about my statement was untrue or inaccurate?
Regarding your comment about manifest destiny, I agree that this dispute in Canada is all about that. It is not just about a pipeline.
Dude states " Her flag is functioning as 'People Repellant'. Just like Larry David's MAGA hat...."
I did complain to management and was told " it's an expression of frustration".
So be it.
I don't think Larry David would tell me to my face to go back to where my ancestors are from!
I wonder how much longer before this thread gets locked.....
Miningman I've been told to my face to "go back where you came from" to which I replied " Hamilton is not that bad!" To which they replied... " No, where you're ancestors are from" and that's from a Student Counsellor at the college. She also displays an upside down Canadian Flag on her desk on a little flagpole. Management just whistles by. Nothing to see here folks, all is well.
I've been told to my face to "go back where you came from" to which I replied " Hamilton is not that bad!" To which they replied... " No, where you're ancestors are from" and that's from a Student Counsellor at the college. She also displays an upside down Canadian Flag on her desk on a little flagpole. Management just whistles by. Nothing to see here folks, all is well.
Her flag is functioning as 'People Repellant'. Just like Larry David's MAGA hat....
I wonder if the flag was shipped by rail, via our Saskatoon Intermodal Terminal.
Miningman Future generations are being steeped in this. Not good.
Future generations are being steeped in this. Not good.
Forgiveness is one part of true Reconciliation. The current blockades are doing nothing to build support for Native issues with the Canadian public. She would do well to remember that.
I consider myself to be generally supportive of our Native peoples in their quest to improve their current state of living and reconciling our shared past, and I believe that Canada needs to atone for the abuses we committed, and live up to our Treaty obligations (at which we have done a terrible job).
But trying to #ShutCanadaDown is not a strategy of reconciliation, and it is punishing the 'little guy' who has done nothing wrong.
The protesters are breaking the law by trespassing on the railroads. It's that simple. It needs to stop. Now. I say that with much more force than Trudeau did, but my words will have exactly the same effect as his (nothing).
Miningman If the Liberal Government does not grant a Mining License to Teck's 20 billion dollar oil sands development then you ain't seen nothin' yet. They are hinting at NO.
If the Liberal Government does not grant a Mining License to Teck's 20 billion dollar oil sands development then you ain't seen nothin' yet. They are hinting at NO.
At current oil prices, Frontier would only be marginally profitable. Even if it is approved there is no guarantee that Teck will build it. If I were a oil-hating politician I would approve this project anyway, and let Teck be the bad guy when they cancel it.
Miningman None of these phoneys say a word about Saudi Oil and tankers on the East Coast! Of course not, that's from somewhere else, we are green. Can you imagine the manipulation going on by foreign interests all across the board.
None of these phoneys say a word about Saudi Oil and tankers on the East Coast! Of course not, that's from somewhere else, we are green.
Can you imagine the manipulation going on by foreign interests all across the board.
I have a few friends who worked in the Saudi and Libyan oilfields. They have ZERO environmental protections over there, but since it is already a seemingly lifeless desert none of the protesters over here seem to care.
Flintlock76 My reaction to your "Manifest Destiny" reference was prompted by my interpretation of it, that is, I thought you were trying to tie the Canadians to an American philosophy. It doesn't apply, not really. At any rate, to my knowledge Canada never experienced the bloody Indian Wars of the 19th Century that we did.
My reaction to your "Manifest Destiny" reference was prompted by my interpretation of it, that is, I thought you were trying to tie the Canadians to an American philosophy. It doesn't apply, not really. At any rate, to my knowledge Canada never experienced the bloody Indian Wars of the 19th Century that we did.
This was the worst conflict we experienced. Also the last war to be fought on Canadian soil. It actually helped complete the CPR transcontinental line, as the Federal government was able to quickly move troop from southern Ontario to the prairies over the partially completed line. Further government funds and guarantees soon secured to complete the project, which had been teetering on bankruptcy's edge before the rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Rebellion
This was nowhere near as long or large a conflict as the Cherokee, Sioux, or Apache wars.
But just like in the U.S, the Natives were placed on Reservations, treaty obligations were often not honoured, and Native children were sent to Residential Schools, where a whole host of terrors occurred. Only now are we starting to come to terms with what happened there, and there is still a long road ahead.
Flintlock76 Was the European migration in the best interest of those here? Well it certainly stopped the Aztec human sacrifices in Mexico. As far as one group of people muscling another out of the way that is as old as human existance. And North America wasn't exactly a paradise for the native peoples either. The made war on each other, captured each other, tortured each other, and dispossessed each other. The Sioux tribes were pushed out of the Midwest by other tribes. Mind you, I AM NOT excusing the white's treatment of the Native Americans. What I AM saying is what I said before concerning European migration. It was inevitable.
Was the European migration in the best interest of those here? Well it certainly stopped the Aztec human sacrifices in Mexico. As far as one group of people muscling another out of the way that is as old as human existance. And North America wasn't exactly a paradise for the native peoples either. The made war on each other, captured each other, tortured each other, and dispossessed each other. The Sioux tribes were pushed out of the Midwest by other tribes.
Mind you, I AM NOT excusing the white's treatment of the Native Americans. What I AM saying is what I said before concerning European migration. It was inevitable.
Some Native peoples practiced forms of slavery. Some would kill each other on sight. In those regards the Canadian tribes were no different from those south of the 49th, nor from so many peoples in Europe, Asia, and Africa.
You're spot on, it seems to be human nature to want to expand into new territories, and we think very little of those who are already there. After all, this sort of thing has been happening for thousands of years, in the Old World and the New. The group with greater strength wins the fight, and the loser is oppressed (or worse) in one way or another.
Here's a good summary of what Canada did.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/here-is-what-sir-john-a-macdonald-did-to-indigenous-people
Firelock states: " but is there anyone who thinks this whole continent, with all it's arable land and mineral resources was going to be kept as a private hunting preserve for a primitive people?"
Good one Wayne!, ahhh yeah, that's what many want, everybody out. Let's pretend that happens. It would take the Chinese Government about one day to take the whole thing over and that would be that! With zero mercy and zero tolerance.
York1 Convicted One We sure don't need anyone imposing the USA's idea of "good" over someone elses "common" (interest) imo And with that I will 100% agree.
Convicted One We sure don't need anyone imposing the USA's idea of "good" over someone elses "common" (interest) imo
And with that I will 100% agree.
Me too!
If any Canadians in the audience want to correct me feel free to do so.
Was the European migration in the best interest of those here? Well it certainly stopped the Aztec human sacrifices in Mexico. As far as one group of people muscling another out of the way that is as old as human existance. And North America wasn't exactly a paradise for the native peoples either. The made war on each other, captured each other, tortured each other, extorted each other, and dispossessed each other. The Sioux tribes were pushed out of the Midwest by other tribes, the Canarsie people of the present day New York City area were wiped out by the Iroquois when they stopped paying tribute. (Witnessed by the Dutch, by the way.) The Iroquois called the Lenne Lenapi people of present day New Jersey the "Old Women" because they wouldn't fight and paid tribute on a regular basis.
Mind you, I AM NOT excusing the white's treatment of the Native Americans, and two or more wrongs don't make a right. What I AM saying is what I said before concerning European migration. It was inevitable. And I am glad it happened.
You can have the last word, nothing else I can say on this subject.
Flintlock76he European migration? It had to happen. Thank God it happened, otherwise I'd have been doomed to a sharecropper's existance like my Italian ancestors were.
But can you say with any certainty that served the best interest of the North American continent, or the people living there?
Convicted OneWe sure don't need anyone imposing the USA's idea of "good" over someone elses "common" (interest) imo
York1 John
Flintlock76the arguments typically dissolve into a "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" level.
I don't believe that I got anywhere near that level, perhaps you are giving me credit for actions by others.
York1I guess my response was aimed at your term, "Podunk USA"
Guess I'll have to take the hit on that one for using an imprecise metaphor. My intention was more as a descriptor for "nowhere in particular".
But then I'm living out in the middle of a soybean field, so I really don't see remoteness as a negative. Regardless, you won't see me trying to impose my values onto a separate and sovereign nation, either.
It's interesting to contemplate how the concept of "the greater common good" has been abused and exploited as a tool to subvert the will of the people over the many years. We sure don't need anyone imposing the USA's idea of "good" over someone elses "common" (interest) imo
EuclidI don't care whether they want them or not, and I doubt that you speak for all of them.
I wonder if you speak for any of them, though?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
To "Convicted One." Well me old son, to use a Newfoundland expression, (Canadian content here) if there's forums where people are banging their fists and calling for hellfire and damnation to rain down on the protesters then kindly limit the "Rightwing Ronnie" comments to those forums, everyone's behaving themselves here. But then, we're cut above the typical news forums I look into from time to time where the arguments typically dissolve into a "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" level. I don't bother with those. At least we usually are. A cut above, that is.
"Manifest Destiny" in a metaphorical sense? No, I didn't know that. Choose your words and phrases carefully sir. I will concur that a lot of sins were committed in the name of "Manifest Destiny," but is there anyone who thinks this whole continent, with all it's arable land and mineral resources was going to be kept as a private hunting preserve for a primitive people? Seriously? Although I wish things happened differently than they did.
The European migration? It had to happen. Thank God it happened, otherwise I'd have been doomed to a sharecropper's existance like my Italian ancestors were.
Convicted OneIf Canada was instead "The commonwealth of king Ronnie Rightwing" I'm sure they would give more weight to his priorities.....
I guess my response was aimed at your term, "Podunk USA".
It seems Canada has the same issue as the U.S. People living in certain zip codes or in certain phone area codes believe they are better able to understand and deal with national issues than people living in the "Podunk" areas.
York1 I know a few of them, and you'd be surprised that many of them are intelligent and educated, just like their betters in the cities.
People choose to view these things through their own seive. Those who wish to see this as only a matter of protection of personal property rights and lack of enforcement to suit their preferences are not seeing the bigger picture.
There are multiple issues in play here with varied priorities. And IMO, Canada is focusing on the priorities it deems the most pressing.
If Canada was instead "The commonwealth of king Ronnie Rightwing",...then I'm sure they would give more weight to his priorities.....
Flintlock76"Ronnie Rightwing" here in the USA? Unless I'm missing something I haven't seen much of anything in the American press about what's going on up
I don't believe that I limited my comment to press coverage, did I? There are a number of forums across the internet where I have found US citizens banging their fists complaining that the Canadians are not being brutal enough for their tastes. It is that point of view that I was lampooning.
Flintlock76PS: "Manifest Destiny" was never a term used in Canada, at least not to my knowledge.
I was really using the expression in more a metaphoric sense to capsulize the Euro migration to North America. But then you knew that.
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