The Ambrose book was reviewed on page 92 of the December 2000 Trains by Walter Gray, who was described at the time as California State Archivist and former director of the California State Railroad Museum. Gray went into great detail about specific errors, but the following quote sums it up best:
"It is customary for authors on this topic to retire to their studies with a stack of 15 or 20 previous books and emerge with one more. Errors and inaccuracies are inadvertently transmitted through successive generations of books, becoming true -- or at least accepted -- through repetition."
I can't tell you how many times I've made similar mistakes when writing articles for rail magazines in the past, relying too much on the previously published works of seemingly trustworthy individuals. And there have been many places over the years where I could detect that other authors have done likewise. Anymore, the dates and figures and names and facts that I come across in much of my research through previously-published books or magazine articles serve merely as indicators or placeholders of facts, which I then try to prove, to the best of my ability, through other, more reliable sources. Often not easy, and sometimes not entirely possible.
Another discussion of the shortcomings of the Ambrose book can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Like_It_in_the_World
This all became somewhat personal for me and my daughter during her college years and beyond (she earned her BA and MA in History) because much of her interest in history began during the bicentennial events here in the Northwest for the Lewis & Clark expedition, which Ambrose famously wrote about in Undaunted Courage. My daugther met Ambrose's daughter (after Ambrose had passed away) at an annual meeting of the Lewis & Clark Trail Heritage Foundation. Turns out Ms. Ambrose became hooked on history much the same way my daughter did, through numerous childhood road trips and vacations with her dad to state and national parks, historic sites, museums, etc. History becomes far more fascinating to kids who experience it hands-on with a mix of visuals and adventure rather than simply being required in class to memorize a long list of names and dates.
Many of the criticisms against Nothing Like it In the World were also aimed at Undaunted Courage. Between that, and my handing her a copy of the Trains review, and what she learned in college and grad school about research and primary sources, my daughter seems better prepared to approach her writing than I did when I was her age, and writing my first articles for rail magazines in the 1980s and early 90s.
It goes without saying that Ambrose earned astronomically more money and acclaim for just those two books (he wrote several others) than any of us in the rail journalism field ever will in our lifetimes. The Trains review of his book came out around the same time I was undergoing my own transformation as a researcher/writer, and that review was a powerful motivator that prompted me to begin digging a bit deeper and wider in my work. A process that is often tempered by the realization that -- unlike Ambrose -- my efforts will earn me only a few hundred dollars per story.
I've read Band of Brothers and Pegasus Bridge. Ambrose is a better storyteller than an accurate historian.
I vaguely remember reading that critique, too. However, a quick search of the Magazine Index here between 1990 and 2020 found nothing for "Ambrose", and only 9 for "transcontinental", none of which related to him.
- PDN.
Bruce Kelly Tree, your point about "trustability" is a good one. A college professor once told us that if you discover a certain number of factual errors in a written work, you should consider the entire work unreliable until you can prove otherwise. I have come to that same conclusion over and over again regarding various books, magazines, map compilations, etc. If I'm able to spot a consistent number of errors in a particular product where it deals with content that I'm familiar with, it makes me question the accuracy of the other subjects being covered which are outside my area of expertise. (And trust me, my own work over the years has caused some people to question my accuracy, and rightfully so.) I remember a phone conversation or exchange of letters I had with Blair Kooistra way back in the late 1980s or early 90s when Mark Hemphill was working on his UP Salt Lake Route book. Mark had shared with Blair some of his disappointment when looking through certain previously-published works on the subject, and if I recall my conversation with Blair correctly, Mark had said to him regarding one or more of those works, "It's wrong...it's all wrong." Which would not be surprising when you read enough books and articles on a given subject and hear the stories about how a certain piece of misinformation can get published once, and how every author afterward who uses that initial work as their source will end up repeating the same mistake. The review that Trains did years ago picking apart the Stephen Ambrose book Nothing Like it In the World was a perfect example. Hemphill was aiming for a much higher level of accuracy and scholarly research with his Salt Lake Route book. I can count on both hands and feet the number of times I made the mistake of relying on a previous author's research and writing as fact without doublechecking it against more authoritative, official, primary sources. It wasn't until Hemphill's time as Editor of Trains, when I sensed his push for more thoroughly-researched and fact-checked material, and when I let him down with a faux pas in one of my articles regarding the date of a realignment on the GN main line in Washington state (I trusted what was depicted on a dated government topo map rather than digging deeper into GN archives) that I decided to set my personal goals higher than what I had often aimed for in the past. Not saying my work is flawless now. Nor is the work of the most highly-regarded, widely-published authors or shooters in the rail field today. The rush to get something posted online or into print before the competition will often result in a degree of error. Haste makes waste. And as I also like to say, hurry leads to worry. Which is why I vastly prefer to spend weeks or months carefully toiling over a feature project vs. hustling to get some breaking news piece keyboarded and submitted in a matter of minutes. Let me conclude with a comical observation on commas. My wife Amy has often told a story from her senior year of high school. Or maybe it was at community college. When an English teacher instructed Amy to read her sentences aloud, and then insert commas wherever she took naturally-occurring pauses in the word structure, she ended up with sentences that were riddled with commas. What the teacher didn't realize was that Amy had been in a terrible car accident a year or two earlier, spent time on a respirator, which scarred her throat. That, coupled with a mild case of asthma, caused Amy to be unusually short of breath, and therefore to take more frequent pauses in her speech. It shot holes in that teacher's well-intended but not fully sufficient theory on using the human voice as a guideline for comma placement.
Tree, your point about "trustability" is a good one. A college professor once told us that if you discover a certain number of factual errors in a written work, you should consider the entire work unreliable until you can prove otherwise. I have come to that same conclusion over and over again regarding various books, magazines, map compilations, etc. If I'm able to spot a consistent number of errors in a particular product where it deals with content that I'm familiar with, it makes me question the accuracy of the other subjects being covered which are outside my area of expertise. (And trust me, my own work over the years has caused some people to question my accuracy, and rightfully so.)
I remember a phone conversation or exchange of letters I had with Blair Kooistra way back in the late 1980s or early 90s when Mark Hemphill was working on his UP Salt Lake Route book. Mark had shared with Blair some of his disappointment when looking through certain previously-published works on the subject, and if I recall my conversation with Blair correctly, Mark had said to him regarding one or more of those works, "It's wrong...it's all wrong."
Which would not be surprising when you read enough books and articles on a given subject and hear the stories about how a certain piece of misinformation can get published once, and how every author afterward who uses that initial work as their source will end up repeating the same mistake. The review that Trains did years ago picking apart the Stephen Ambrose book Nothing Like it In the World was a perfect example. Hemphill was aiming for a much higher level of accuracy and scholarly research with his Salt Lake Route book.
I can count on both hands and feet the number of times I made the mistake of relying on a previous author's research and writing as fact without doublechecking it against more authoritative, official, primary sources. It wasn't until Hemphill's time as Editor of Trains, when I sensed his push for more thoroughly-researched and fact-checked material, and when I let him down with a faux pas in one of my articles regarding the date of a realignment on the GN main line in Washington state (I trusted what was depicted on a dated government topo map rather than digging deeper into GN archives) that I decided to set my personal goals higher than what I had often aimed for in the past.
Not saying my work is flawless now. Nor is the work of the most highly-regarded, widely-published authors or shooters in the rail field today. The rush to get something posted online or into print before the competition will often result in a degree of error. Haste makes waste. And as I also like to say, hurry leads to worry. Which is why I vastly prefer to spend weeks or months carefully toiling over a feature project vs. hustling to get some breaking news piece keyboarded and submitted in a matter of minutes.
Let me conclude with a comical observation on commas. My wife Amy has often told a story from her senior year of high school. Or maybe it was at community college. When an English teacher instructed Amy to read her sentences aloud, and then insert commas wherever she took naturally-occurring pauses in the word structure, she ended up with sentences that were riddled with commas. What the teacher didn't realize was that Amy had been in a terrible car accident a year or two earlier, spent time on a respirator, which scarred her throat. That, coupled with a mild case of asthma, caused Amy to be unusually short of breath, and therefore to take more frequent pauses in her speech. It shot holes in that teacher's well-intended but not fully sufficient theory on using the human voice as a guideline for comma placement.
Having read Ambrose's book, I would be very interested in reading the Trains review. Bruce, do you happen to know what issue it was in? Or does anyone else?
Thanks, Tree68. I'll look out for that.
If I remember correctly, a before a noun, a cat, a dog, a train; an before a vowal, an almond, an office, an awning, an unknown. But also an hour, with h treated as a vowal for this purpose.
[quote user="BaltACD"]
The REAL test - does the statement made convey the thought intended.
It is about communication, not grammar.[/quote]
I can't disagree, but I can say that a well-written item will convey more "trustability" (25 cent word for the day) than one littered with simple errors.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It is about communication, not grammar.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
daveklepperTo make those of us who appreciate being corrected, as well as those who feel hurt, may I suggest that all corrections, when possible, be presented as general knowledge, rather than a reply to a particular posting?
I'll be the buffer, although it's not my observation (I may even be guilty of it myself from time to time). Improper use of "a" and "an." Such as "I ate a apple today," vs "I ate an apple."
As I've noted, sometimes improper usage is a matter of how one was raised - Mom and Dad spoke that way, therefore so do I, if you will.
Consider yourselfs corrected!
If there is a general mistake that many make, I would appreciate knowing what it is. It should not hurt anyone's feelings to point it out, as a general mistake, and we all can learn.
Possibly two spaces after a period or colon is optional, and inconsistancy can be forgiven on forums (but not in printed publications). Ditto the question of "a, b, c, and d" or "a. b. c and d."
To make those of us who appreciate being corrected, as well as those who feel hurt, may I suggest that all corrections, when possible, be presented as general knowledge, rather than a reply to a particular posting?
Lithonia OperatorThere's a particular English mistake that a few people on this forum make over and over again, like clockwork, totally consistently. But it's simply not anyone's role here to point it out.
Perhaps that's how they learned it. Maybe it's like the "Oxford comma."
I learned to type using two spaces after a sentence ending period (and after a colon, as I recall). Some think of that as redundant.
You're exactly correct.
York1 daveklepper As an 88-year-old, I do not mind being corrected in any mistake I make, and am willing to see the correction publicly displayed. I'm glad you feel that way. However, not everyone does. Some people would rather be judged on the content of their post rather than an unintentional spelling error. On a forum like this, pointing out the minor faults of someone else is bad manners, especially when that action does nothing to add to the discussion.
daveklepper As an 88-year-old, I do not mind being corrected in any mistake I make, and am willing to see the correction publicly displayed.
I'm glad you feel that way.
However, not everyone does. Some people would rather be judged on the content of their post rather than an unintentional spelling error.
On a forum like this, pointing out the minor faults of someone else is bad manners, especially when that action does nothing to add to the discussion.
I couldn't agree with you more.
There's a particular English mistake that a few people on this forum make over and over again, like clockwork, totally consistently. But it's simply not anyone's role here to point it out.
If this were a writing forum, maybe. But probably not, even in that case.
daveklepperAs an 88-year-old, I do not mind being corrected in any mistake I make, and am willing to see the correction publicly displayed.
York1 John
As an 88-year-old, I do not mind being corrected in any mistake I make, and am willing to see the correction publicly displayed. (Perhaps this is a lack of humility, but I believe my postings are useful to readers to the extent that I am forgiven for the errors I do make.) I do believe that misinformation is a far greater error than typos or spelling or even gramatical erros, except when they lead to misunderstanding the message.
And I also believe that material published in Kalmbach publications should be held to a higher standard in all areas than anything on any Forum. And thus I will continue to post errors that concern me, while still saying the two publications I read, Trains and Classic Trains, are valuable, generally accurate (but we are all human), well-worth the prices of subscriptions, and very enjoyable to read.
I am trying to do better regarding typos and spelling errors on the two Forums. A better computer with a good spell-check is helpful, and I have to thank the Yeshiva for letting me use it for purposes other than religious material.
54light15 Rule number one of how to write good: Avoid cliches like the plague.
Rule number one of how to write good:
Avoid cliches like the plague.
I see what you did there.
While I try to proof what I post, I'm sure that some mistakes have gotten through. And if I can not mentally correct for someone typing to, too, or two incorectly or hear for here then shame on me.
As the expression goes, "Let he without sin throw the first stone"!
Lithonia OperatorI tried to get the moderators to intervene, as did others, but they won't.
Sometimes it's because said poster has some sort of inside connection, unfortunately.
I'm betting said individual rarely actually adds anything constructive to the discussion.
I used to be very active on an auto racing forum. But there is one pompous jerk who corrects everyone's English. Now, I am fairly OC about what I write, so I mostly escaped his snarky wrath. But seeing him do that day after day to others is the main reason I spend very little time there now. It's not that clown's job. I tried to get the moderators to intervene, as did others, but they won't.
I've never had the urge to play "grammar cop" myself, I've always been interested in what someone has to say irregardless of how they say it.
I think we all lose if all we have here are the "usual suspects" as far as commenting is concerned, and certainly I'm one of them.
It's less fun if some people dominate here to the exclusion of others.
There is another poster who is respected despite his continual mispellings--even of city names. His sentence structure is, to me, excellent.
Johnny
York1I'm curious why someone would feel the need to point out a grammar error or spelling error to someone on a forum, publicly or privately.
I'd opine it would be one of two reasons - first is altruistic, they do believe they are doing the "offender" a favor.
I might do that via PM if the person is guilty of a malapropism - say, using "precipitation" when they mean "participation." I got a phone call the other day from someone who used a place name so mangled that it took me a couple of other clues to figure out what they meant.
The second would basically be described as bullying - perhaps an effort to reduce the "offender's" status in the eyes of others.
York1I'm curious why someone would feel the need to point out a grammar error to someone on a forum, publicly or privately.
In my case, because it's almost physically painful to see errors in 'print'. Others may object to seeing hot-button references, or political points, or trolling. It's a quirk, but one that is not officially 'forbidden' by other posters and their opinions, any more than grammarians can dictate what is and isn't posted in other respects.
I'll grant you there are some other motivations for 'pointing out grammatical errors' in a forum thread itself, most of which are misguided or 'the sign of a somewhat insecure personality'. (The one 'exception' is when a poster makes a comment about grammar and commits errors in their 'correction' or comment... then it becomes very tempting to 'call' it. Not that this is necessarily an important or even substantial 'objection'... or an exception to the above... )
It is surprising how often someone who makes an error, either as a typo or through "insufficient knowledge" of English, appreciates a correction privately. Many posters do not have English as a first language, and are learning as they go; others do not know the rich joys of idiom and semantic construction yet, and often appreciate that someone has taken the time to explain something about it to them. The point is that when it is offered privately, it is free for them to take or ignore as they see fit, and it really doesn't matter if it's 'effective' in the sense they go and sin no more thereafter. One can at least try.
There is a difference between a professional print publication and a comment posted on a forum page. There is a difference between a simple spelling error and a factually incorrect point.
I'm curious why someone would feel the need to point out a grammar error or a spelling error to someone on a forum, publicly or privately.
If the idea is to make the person who made the error learn something, it's unlikely to be effective.
OvermodThat's why I quietly redact any 'errors' in material I quote,...
I've caught flack for doing that. Changing "here" to "hear" isn't usually going to change the meaning of the post. If I thought it would, I wouldn't change it.
It would take a pretty significant "error" before I'd PM someone on it.
Calling someone on a factual error is different.
York1Typing quickly, it's easy to write "here" for "hear", etc. It's easy to misspell words and use incorrect grammar when typing thoughts on a forum.
The key difference is that it's easy and direct (most of the time) to go back in and 'edit' any mistakes on a forum, once detected (or mentioned). Or, in fact, remove the content of something that turns out to be misguiding or wrong, or "redact" something that is irritating to some people in the community.
You can't do that with comments in print in a magazine.
On the other hand, you could do what newspapers do: mention that they have made mistakes, provide the correct answer or whatever, and apologize for the misunderstanding. I do seem to remember seeing "Trains regrets the error" from time to time.
Print (to me) was always a 'higher standard' for proofreading, typesetting, and so forth. Just as "television broadcast" used to be a gold standard for careful video production. I violently disagreed with a couple of premises in the old IBM "Writing to Read" program, and have been disagreeing rather futilely with many other things since, particularly including that wretched "The Mac Is Not A Typewriter" thing ... and probably will continue to do so, but not in the hope that NeXT-like standards for proofreading or production will ever be adopted again. Doesn't mean I'll stop, though.
No one likes to be criticized. If one is criticized for a silly spelling or grammar error, it's even harder to accept.
That's why I quietly redact any 'errors' in material I quote, and why I try to PM people when I see something in a post that may be a problem. Interestingly I have had people complain when I do that, just as if I'd done something to shame them publically or professionally ... even though no one but they and I will know anything about it. At least the subsequent discussion also takes place in private... as it should.
(Not that I pretend to be a paragon of virtue in these respects. What was that thing I criticized CMStPnP about a couple of months ago, that he started using as a kind of "Yankee Doodle" flag of pride against too much grammaticism or whatever?)
Typing quickly, it's easy to write "here" for "hear", etc. It's easy to misspell words and use incorrect grammar when typing thoughts on a forum.
I have to wonder why someone feels the need to point out someone else's mistakes.
I certainly don't need to have someone point out my mistakes; that's my wife's full-time job.
tree68 York1 While I'm a fan of well-written posts with words spelled correctly, I believe on a site like this, it's just plain bad manners to point out someone's errors. We used to have a poster here whose grammar, etc, were atrocious. But the content of his posts was authoritative and informative, well worth picking through the language peccadillos. He struck me as someone whose upbringing was less than priviledged, but who made the best life he knew how.
York1 While I'm a fan of well-written posts with words spelled correctly, I believe on a site like this, it's just plain bad manners to point out someone's errors.
We used to have a poster here whose grammar, etc, were atrocious. But the content of his posts was authoritative and informative, well worth picking through the language peccadillos. He struck me as someone whose upbringing was less than priviledged, but who made the best life he knew how.
Lithonia OperatorI don't care how posters on the forum write.
True that. But my opinion of them might go down a notch or two if they don't seem to understand proper word usage and a basic understanding of the queen's English. The occasional malaprop is fine. Yore, your, you're, and the like drive me nuts, but I'm still trying to figure out who "u" is. I see a lot of mentions of him/her on FB...
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