tree68There's alot of inertia there -
The westbound consisted entirely of empty crude oil tanks. Speed seems to be a factor.
Darwin candidates kill or cause harm to themselves (not the train's or whatever's fault).
In the case here, there may have been outside causes, beyond the control of the deceased. Nothing reported on that, yet.
Not buying the apologist crap. (and yes, I had an employee under my supervision who died after disobeying a direct order [before OTS kicked-in] - he killed himself and caused hell afterwards)
Mean-spirited with a purpose.
243129 Just how fast was he going in order to derail 9 cars?
There's alot of inertia there - he's going to keep pushing cars out of the way until he's stopped. And they were relatively light IM cars. Plus, they were on a curve, so they probably popped out very nicely...
That he was unable to stop in half the distance clearly violates a basic tenet of "restricted speed." With the limited sight distance of the curve (clearly visible in the photo in the link), I would opine he should have been at a crawl, not at the maximum 15-20 MPH allowed by the rule (if he was going that fast - we don't know yet).
I wonder about the possibility that there was some mis-communication there - leaving the following crew to believe the end of the train they hit was further along the line than it actually was. Or they weren't where they thought they were. Doesn't excuse what happened, but might help explain it.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
243129The crew on the westbound crude oil (all empties) are in big trouble.
Look at the curve in question. That's almost no reaction time at all ... if you're not expecting the train ahead of you to Actually Stop Short. And yes, that's why restricted speed is formulated as it is, and why the engineer at least will have to be 'holding the bag' for his rear-ending.
The history of the New York Central is marked by a number of these collisions-with-derailments where it proved impossible to stop before colliding with wreckage suddenly 'appearing in your lane.' I have seen video of an Amtrak Train on one of the routes in the Pacific Northwest following a moving train with grossly impossible "following distance". The difference here is that the colliding crew knew they were under the strict requirements of 'restricted speed', and it's difficult for me to be non-judgmental about the reasons they failed to comply -- difficult, in part, not to rack this up precisely to some aspects of poor vetting or failure of supervision or training to enforce half the sight distance or else, no ifs ands or buts. The whole point of that part of the rule -- the whole rationale for banner tests and that 'ilk' of weed-weaselry -- is to make sure you can stop safely no matter what surprise you come across, no matter how sharp the curve may be or unexpected the thing you find ahead of you.
Far more alarming is the litany of things the multibillion-dollar PTC "1.0" overlay boondoggle fails to do in this situation ... one of the few places, in fact, that it ought to function as positive train control. You'd think someone in the government would have learned from the misprogramming at NAJPTC that recognizing and tracking the end of the train is as important as the front. Now everyone can try playing catch-up-ball, spend more money, impose more restrictions ... and perhaps in the end we will get a system that will actually stop a train short of one standing on a main line. What a concept!
(Why the weird nastiness in the dead-teenager thread is erupting again in this thread is something of a mystery, but no less concerning for that. Can Brian Schmidt please get back into his little rules revision sticky and add 'judgmental Darwin Award comments' to the hoboes and politics? It's the same thing, causing the same problems, the same time after time after time with little if any point. That may not get us to civility, but at least it would be a start.)
Meanwhile back at the NS disaster many things 'loom'. The crew on the westbound crude oil (all empties) are in big trouble. Restricted speed can also be defined as 'be prepared to hold the bag'. Just how fast was he going in order to derail 9 cars? Were they medically incapacitated (their only out) or were they asleep?
charlie hebdo If being an apologist means standing up to sadism and up for the dead and their families, that's just fine.
If being an apologist means standing up to sadism and up for the dead and their families, that's just fine.
+1
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Looks like the record is stuck again.
charlie hebdo Let it go. You might live a while.
Let it go. You might live a while.
... is also good for apologists that won't let go.
charlie hebdo BaltACD Potential Darwin candidate You're just obsessed with this nonsense. You can't help yourself.
BaltACD Potential Darwin candidate
Potential Darwin candidate
You're just obsessed with this nonsense. You can't help yourself.
Your horse is pretty damn high. Do you need supplemental oxygen up there - or is that a picture of your lost keys. In today's world openly inviting unknown parties to your 'home' address is about the next best thing to advertising a death wish.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I don't think the NS wreck necessarily indicates poor training, vetting, etc. It could mean that, of course.
But it could also be that a well-trained crew, with two persons who have done great jobs for decades, on this particular day got sloppy. It happens. It seems clear that they were not proceeding at a speed whereby they could stop in time; or, if they were, they were distracted. Maybe, as someone said, they were just chewing the fat and not looking where they were going.
It's also possible there were extenuating circumstances. Like an equipment failure that distracted them. A health emergency in the cab. Who knows?
tree68 For all we know, a lifting device failed and something fell on him.
For all we know, a lifting device failed and something fell on him.
It can happen, and not just in the workplace or on a railroad:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/girl-air-conditioner-struck-dies-scarborough-1.5356152
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Tree: OK on all counts.
Lithonia Operator Does NTSB investigate wrecks in which no one was hurt or killed?
Does NTSB investigate wrecks in which no one was hurt or killed?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/1131
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
charlie hebdoThe flaw lies in your inability to even read correctly. You are so eager to attack anyone who confronts your Darwin obsession. I was referring in a hypothetical manner to the Amtrak employee who died in an accident in Chicago, not the crews in Pennsylvania. Heck, it could have been equipment failure or dispatchers' incompetence, I don't know and neither do you. You readily celebrate the deaths of "civilian" victims of locomotives but railroad workers seem to be immune from even being held accountable for collisions. Classic double standard.
You're right - I was thinking as I wrote that that you had started the thread. My bad.
I don't know where you get "celebrate" from. I'm not celebrating anyone's death. If anything, invoking Darwin is a statement on how regretable (and preventable) such a death is. Would you prefer if we just said something to that effect, rather than invoking Darwin?
I'm not placing any blame for the PA collision - no one but those involved knows what actually happened. Could be the crew was observing the speed part of restricted and not observing the stop in half the distance. Maybe they were discussing a football game...
And I'm certainly not going to judge the Chicago incident based on what's been published so far. For all we know, a lifting device failed and something fell on him.
And, in case you missed it, I was one of those putting the blame for the Ivy City incident squarely on the deceased crew members while certain others tried to blame just about everyone else.
tree68 charlie hebdo It's really not hard to summon empathy for his family. No, it's not. And in virtually all cases, regardless of the cause of death, folks do feel empathy for the family. Even moreso in the case of those awarded the honor being discussed, as the family is suffering when they really didn't need to do so. I should note that you don't seem to have a problem casting aspersions on the crew of the train involved in the wreck in Pennsylvania. I know, I know, I'm mis-interpreting your intentions there. That always seems to be the case when someone points out a flaw in your reasoning.
charlie hebdo It's really not hard to summon empathy for his family.
No, it's not. And in virtually all cases, regardless of the cause of death, folks do feel empathy for the family. Even moreso in the case of those awarded the honor being discussed, as the family is suffering when they really didn't need to do so.
I should note that you don't seem to have a problem casting aspersions on the crew of the train involved in the wreck in Pennsylvania. I know, I know, I'm mis-interpreting your intentions there. That always seems to be the case when someone points out a flaw in your reasoning.
The flaw lies in your inability to even read correctly. You are so eager to attack anyone who confronts your Darwin obsession. I was referring in a hypothetical manner to the Amtrak employee who died in an accident in Chicago, not the crews in Pennsylvania. Heck, it could have been equipment failure or dispatchers' incompetence, I don't know and neither do you.
You readily celebrate the deaths of "civilian" victims of locomotives but railroad workers seem to be immune from even being held accountable for collisions. Classic double standard.
EuclidYes, when I wake up in the morning, the first thing on my mind is to make sure the gene pool is clean.
If gene pool cleaning had been really perfected - many of us would not exist for a variety of reasons.
charlie hebdoIt's really not hard to summon empathy for his family.
Yes, when I wake up in the morning, the first thing on my mind is to make sure the gene pool is clean.
charlie hebdoYou miss the point. No big surprise there. Whatever the cause for his fatal injuries, he and his family deserve our condolences. It's really not hard to summon empathy for his family.
Chlorine is used to sanitize water for use in swimming pools. Darwins are spot use of sanitizer in cleaning the Gene Pool.
Who knows, maybe my own death when it comes, might be worthy of a Darwin. For 73 years I have avoided such a happening, and I am not a 'hold my beer' type of individual but I have managed to survive a number of what, in retrospect, were extremely dumb things. Had those things claime my life I would have richly deserved a Darwin!
You miss the point. No big surprise there. Whatever the cause for his fatal injuries, he and his family deserve our condolences. It's really not hard to summon empathy for his family.
charlie hebdo Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street So if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration?
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street
So if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration?
Need more facts to make any awards - I rarely see such pabulum and so few facts in an article. No facts were presented as to what craft the deceased was working or what kind of work action was being performed at the time of the blunt force tramua from a industrial accident.
charlie hebdo SD70Dude charlie hebdo SD70Dude 243129 Sure smacks of it. No pun intended. https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/ Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street So if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration? Hi, how is your day going? Nice to see you too. May that poor employee rest in peace, and peace be to his family and friends as well. And that is how these pedestrian or vehicle collisions with a locomotive should be spoken of, or not at all.
SD70Dude charlie hebdo SD70Dude 243129 Sure smacks of it. No pun intended. https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/ Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street So if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration? Hi, how is your day going? Nice to see you too. May that poor employee rest in peace, and peace be to his family and friends as well.
charlie hebdo SD70Dude 243129 Sure smacks of it. No pun intended. https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/ Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street So if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration?
SD70Dude 243129 Sure smacks of it. No pun intended. https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/ Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/11/11/20960084/amtrak-employee-killed-industrial-accident-south-loop-rail-yard-lumber-street
243129 Sure smacks of it. No pun intended. https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/
Sure smacks of it. No pun intended.
https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/
Amtrak had a fatality in Chicago:
Hi, how is your day going? Nice to see you too.
May that poor employee rest in peace, and peace be to his family and friends as well.
And that is how these pedestrian or vehicle collisions with a locomotive should be spoken of, or not at all.
I agree, and I never advocated demeaning the victim in the other thread.
I think you are holding a grudge against certain others who are not me, and that does not belong in this thread, unless you want this one locked too.
We do not know yet how the NS three-train collision happened, or exactly how the Amtrak employee was killed. Let the speculation begin......
charlie hebdoSo if certain people on here were being consistent, should not an award be under serious consideration?
Not enough information to draw such a conclusion. You appear to be the only one who did.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.