I saw on Youtube that the company building Allegiant stadium in Vegas had to resort to explosives to excavate for the foundation due to a layer of rock.
Across town, the Boring Co. is supposed to start construction the convention center people mover using as tunnel boring machine.
How do TBMs perform in cutting through hard rock?
JoeBlowHow do TBMs perform in cutting through hard rock?
Where I live they are using a TBM to bore a 20' dia hole 5 miles long, 250' deep in solid bedrock.
They started boring March 19, and they just made 3/4 mile on Nov 6.
So I think the exprression "slow and steady" pretty well sums it up.
There is a lot more work involved than just the boring,,,,,site prep, machine set up, maintenance and repair
If you are interested here is a link to their public "work progress" site:
https://www.cityoffortwayne.org/tunnel-project-updates.html
Conventional drill, blast and muck out is much quicker in hard rock and far less costly without the headaches of a boring machine. A miner with a rubber tryed Jumbo Drill and a Scoop Tram can get two 12' x 12' rounds per day in hard rock. That's 24' of advance in one shift. Usually a crew of 2 or 3.
Boring machines are much better suited to soft rock and some Metamorphic rocks but they can be used in some hard rock situations if you have the time and the money.
With today's drilling and blasting technologies we can make just as smooth a back, sill, footwall and hanging wall as a boring machine. Depends on the quality of Mining you desire or if you just need to 'highball that's all'.
High pressure water drills are also effective in the same situations as Boring Machines. We use them up here in our Uranium Mines in softer highly altered metamorphic rock.
Convicted One JoeBlow How do TBMs perform in cutting through hard rock? Where I live they are using a TBM to bore a 20' dia hole 5 miles long, 250' deep in solid bedrock. They started boring March 19, and they just made 3/4 mile on Nov 6. So I think the exprression "slow and steady" pretty well sums it up. There is a lot more work involved than just the boring,,,,,site prep, machine set up, maintenance and repair If you are interested here is a link to their public "work progress" site: https://www.cityoffortwayne.org/tunnel-project-updates.html
JoeBlow How do TBMs perform in cutting through hard rock?
Surprised Ft. Wayne has the scratch to fund such a undertaking.
Go Ft. Wayne Komets - first hockey team I ever rooted for.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDSurprised Ft. Wayne has the scratch to fund such a undertaking
They've not been given much choice. 80 years ago building combined sanitary and storm sewers looked like a good idea to those making the decisions.
The federal govt rethought that decision for them, and forced the City to sign a consent decree promising to seperate the systems by such and such a date.
The 5 mile tunnel is by far the largest single component of the seperation project.
Paid for by the water utility rate payers. This has played out in some rather interesting conflicts where people in outlying areas fight annexation because they do not want to get pulled into the payors of that program, while the City is anxious to add as many as they can.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingThat's impressive. Progress is only something like 17 feet per day? Looks like there's another 5 years of boring to do. What does this cost?
At one time I was a lot more "tuned-in" on this project than I am now. A lot of the original facts and figures once provided by the city have slipped from easy access.
But if I recall properly, they intend to be operational by 2023...and I believe the budget is around $240 mil for the entire project, of which about $80 mil is for the tunnel and related connections
Here is more than you would ever want to know in a nice little PDF file
Some years ago, when they put in our local sewer system (which replaced individual septic systems), they did a lot of rock trenching. The limestone bedrock is not far under the surface here.
The rock trencher they used was no speed demon, although I never tracked how fast it travelled.
The welder spent a lot of time repairing and replacing teeth.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Some years ago, when they put in our local sewer system (which replaced individual septic systems), they did a lot of rock trenching. The limestone bedrock is not far under the surface here
A buddy of mine was annexed a few years ago, and they forced him to connect to the sewer also. Here you get a composite bill ....water, sewer, trash collection, street lights (allocation).
He still had his own well, they never connected city water....he never had trash pickup......and there is nary a street light anywhere on the dead end road that has 6 households.
The City's main tool of enforcement is, if you don't pay your bill they come shut off your water...post haste...they do not dwadle on this, they enjoy playing the "heavy".
My buddy let his bill lapse and the enforcers came out to disconnect him...and couldn't...because he was still on his own well. I thought that was kinda funny
Convicted OneThe City's main tool of enforcement is, if you don't pay your bill they come shut off your water...post haste...they do not dwadle on this, they enjoy playing the "heavy". My buddy let his bill lapse and the enforcers came out to disconnect him...and couldn't...because he was still on his own well. I thought that was kinda funny
Of course, the next step is to send out the Health Dept. to 'test' the water from the well and condem it.
BaltACDOf course, the next step is to send out the Health Dept. to 'test' the water from the well and condem it.
Or put a lien on the property?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Actually, I believe it accomplished exactly what my buddy intended. It forced a dialog on such topics of "how am I getting a water bill when I don't even have a meter?" and "If sewer charge is prorated off my water bill, and I don't have A WATER METER HOW ARE YOU FIGURING MY BILL?" as well as "What about this garbage collection business? do the trucks even know where to find us?"
This was all resolved a while back, I just thought it was funny the way the city came out with their usual chip on their shoulders, and had to pack it up and go home frustrated.
It seems that th city bit off more than it could chew at the time they annexed him, there were no nearby water lines to connect him to, but that didn't occur to the bubbas in the billing dept. So he got an abatement until the line was put in place.
The city of Atlanta is having to do the same thing Ft Wayne is doing Price is in the Billions.
http://cleanwateratlanta.org/ConsentDecree/Elements/CSO.htm
http://cleanwateratlanta.org/Wastewater/CSOFactSheet.pdf
Convicted OneActually, I believe it accomplished exactly what my buddy intended. It forced a dialog on such topics of "how am I getting a water bill when I don't even have a meter?"
When discussions for putting in municipal water where I live were ongoing a few years ago, one "feature" of the program was that they would hook you up to the system free when they were installing it, but charge for the hook-up if you opted out and later changed your mind.
One thing that turned some of the folks off was that they would charge you what amounted to an opportunity cost if you didn't hook up - you'd pay for having the water main passing your property even if you didn't use it.
What really turned a lot of people off, though, was that some bubba in Albany (state capital) set what he thought would be a "fair" annual fee for the water, based on usage and financing costs. When I asked what would happen if we somehow got another grant than those they had already factored in to the cost (ie, thus reducing the amount that had to be financed/repaid), we were told that some other source of funding would "dry up." In other words, the water was going to cost us $X no matter what.
We still don't have municipal water.
Regarding sewer charges (ours is a flat fee) - My sister and BIL live in Phoenix. BIL likes having a yard that looks like Michigan, so lots of greenery. Every year or two, he has someone from the city visit their property and do an inventory of the greenery (how many trees, square feet of grass, etc), and their sewer bill is reduced by some percentage as a result. Their sewer bill is also based on water usage.
New York City is drilling a new water tunnel from the Neversink reseevoir in the Catskill mountains to replace the 100 year old tunnel which is finally failing. This granite is some of hardest there is and a TBM is the only way to get it done in a quick and safe mamner.
Convicted OneHere you get a composite bill ....water, sewer, trash collection, street lights (allocation) ... The City's main tool of enforcement is, if you don't pay your bill they come shut off your water...posthaste...they do not dawdle on this, they enjoy playing the "heavy".
The composite bill is for their convenience; it makes it easy to calculate everything off a 'known' quantity (the number on the water meter). When I lived in Springhill, Louisiana (in the early 1990s) there were a whole bunch of special charges that also came off that water bill. Sewer is figured in because 'where did the flush water come from?'
What was fun, of course, was just the situation where you were on a well. I don't know whether they ever tried the 'you can't have a well because [reasons]' approach -- as I recall they issued you an 'estimated' bill based on comparable average consumption for a house/lot your size ... less the actual amount for water. They'd happily suspend trash collection to your particular address for non-payment (I actually saw one of the notes to the collector in the truck cab, similar to the 'do not cash this person's checks' in local convenience stores)
tree68What really turned a lot of people off, though, was that some bubba in Albany (state capital) set what he thought would be a "fair" annual fee for the water, based on usage and financing costs. When I asked what would happen if we somehow got another grant than those they had already factored in to the cost (ie, thus reducing the amount that had to be financed/repaid), we were told that some other source of funding would "dry up." In other words, the water was going to cost us $X no matter what. We still don't have municipal water. Regarding sewer charges (ours is a flat fee) - My sister and BIL live in Phoenix. BIL likes having a yard that looks like Michigan, so lots of greenery. Every year or two, he has someone from the city visit their property and do an inventory of the greenery (how many trees, square feet of grass, etc), and their sewer bill is reduced by some percentage as a result. Their sewer bill is also based on water usage.
So by staying on your own well, did you avoid the "fair" annual fee, or do they charge you regardless?
When I used to manage high rise office buildings, there was always considerable "make up" water usage to fill and operate the HVAC system's cooling towers. In theory all that water evaporates, and therefore the building owner is entitled to a credit on the sewer bill for water consumed by the cooling towers. We always had a house water meter on the line feeding the cooling tower water make up, we'd read it monthly, and take the usage as a credit on the utility bill.
Not sure if your sister in Phoenix has that option, but it might be worth exploring.
A real green landscape in Phoenix? I'll bet that is quite a sight. We had a building in Phoenix that I'd get sent to from time to time, and it seemed like EVERYBODY (commercial) had switched to "desert" landscaping.....
blue streak 1The city of Atlanta is having to do the same thing Ft Wayne is doing Price is in the Billions.
I lived down there years ago, there was a picturesque creek called "Tanyard creek" that flowed over a series of bedrock sills, looked like something you'd expect to see up around Toccoa, but it was right there between mid-town and Buckhead. Very serene.
Whenever it would rain really hard, a 18" thick blanket of soapsuds would come floating down the creek, looking almost like that foam they use to smother burning liquids. Considerable amount. I guess there was some sewer interceptor that flowed through the Cheshire Bridge road area having an outflow of some sort up stream on Tanyard creek. Some business over on Cheshire Bridge was dumping something they shouldn't in the sewers, and finally got caught
Convicted OneSo by staying on your own well, did you avoid the "fair" annual fee, or do they charge you regardless?
Since the water system never went in, the point was moot. If it had gone in, yes, property owners who stayed on their own well still would have paid a base rate.
Convicted OneNot sure if your sister in Phoenix has that option, but it might be worth exploring.
That's why my BIL has the inventory done, because they get a break on the sewer portion of the bill.
tree68That's why my BIL has the inventory done, because they get a break on the sewer portion of the bill.
So long as they are content with the allocations, I guess there is no problem. Personally I'd be more at ease with a submeter....
Convicted OneSo long as they are content with the allocations, I guess there is no problem. Personally I'd be more at ease with a submeter....
He's retired from the water department....
I think the parameters are pretty well fixed, so many trees, so many bushes, so many square feet of lawn, etc. I'm sure there are specifications for each.
C.O.: The City of Indianapolis is also constructing a deep storage tunnel. One of the access points is off of Keystone Ave a couple hundred yards South of the ex-NYC B-Line (and Massachusetts Ave) [there is the railroad connection]
As for water bills, many municipalities that I'm familiar with have a monthly minimum charge for x thousand gallons. If the meter shows more than that, the bill goes up by y-cents per thousand gallons for the "overage." This also changes the sewer bill in a similar fashion.
There are other relief available to users. Some towns have a "watering credit" if you water your grass regularly. How that is figured varies from location to location. Others have a once a year fill your swimming pool. These credits only affect the sewer portion of the bill. If you have a leak after the meter, you can get your bill adjusted back to an average of the last six month's water usage. This adjustment usually affects both water and sewer portion of the bill.
Overmod: What you described in Atlanta sounds like a CSO Combined Sewer Overflow. When the sewer gets to capacity due to the run-off from the rain, any flow above a wier gets diverted from the sewer line into the nearby creek/river. The reason they skim off the top is to avoid the "solids" in suspension lower in the flow. It's obviously not fool-proof, hence the consent decrees and consent orders with the Enviro Depts to eliminate all CSOs in communities. These Deep Tunnel storage projects and others like them are all about eliminating CSOs.
Murphy Siding Progress is only something like 17 feet per day?
Just to try and be thorough, I think one of the time intensive factors is the need to raise the spoils 250' up out of that drop shaft (assuming you looked at the pictures).
It wouldn't make a lot of sense, I don't imagine, for them to create spoils much faster than they can lift it out o da ho
Convicted One Murphy Siding Progress is only something like 17 feet per day? Just to try and be thorough, I think one of the time intensive factors is the need to raise the spoils 250' up out of that drop shaft (assuming you looked at the pictures). It wouldn't make a lot of sense, I don't imagine, for them to create spoils much faster than they can lift it out o da ho
That's only about a dozen dump truck loads. I'd opine getting rid of the spoils is the least of their problems.
tree68 Convicted One Murphy Siding Progress is only something like 17 feet per day? Just to try and be thorough, I think one of the time intensive factors is the need to raise the spoils 250' up out of that drop shaft (assuming you looked at the pictures). It wouldn't make a lot of sense, I don't imagine, for them to create spoils much faster than they can lift it out o da ho That's only about a dozen dump truck loads. I'd opine getting rid of the spoils is the least of their problems.
I have to agree - TBM's are constructed so that spoil is moved back toward the insertion point on a conveyor system and I would expect a conveyor/bucket system would be installed to move the spoil from where the TBM deposits it to the surface.
BaltACD tree68 Convicted One Murphy Siding Progress is only something like 17 feet per day? Just to try and be thorough, I think one of the time intensive factors is the need to raise the spoils 250' up out of that drop shaft (assuming you looked at the pictures). It wouldn't make a lot of sense, I don't imagine, for them to create spoils much faster than they can lift it out o da ho That's only about a dozen dump truck loads. I'd opine getting rid of the spoils is the least of their problems. I have to agree - TBM's are constructed so that spoil is moved back toward the insertion point on a conveyor system and I would expect a conveyor/bucket system would be installed to move the spoil from where the TBM deposits it to the surface.
rrnut282Overmod: What you described in Atlanta sounds like a CSO Combined Sewer Overflow. When the sewer gets to capacity due to the run-off from the rain, any flow above a wier gets diverted from the sewer line into the nearby creek/river. The reason they skim off the top is to avoid the "solids" in suspension lower in the flow. It's obviously not fool-proof ...
That wasn't me, but it's interesting nonetheless.
The interesting thing here is that one of the very earliest of the mitigation efforts for this kind of 'foam' problem, I think starting in the 1960s before there was a formal EPA effort, was to deal with the chemical formulation of detergents, etc. entering the waste stream in the first place. As I recall this was under the general heading of 'reducing phosphates'. There was one whopper of a product called Ecolo-G that produced many more 'issues' than it solved for people who didn't understand what happened downstream of the rinse cycle -- or to their clothes -- chemically.
You can read something of the emergent discussion and get an education on the basic issues simultaneously here (circa 1972).
Evidently this aspect of 'right regulation' needs to be revisited...
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