Backshop SD60MAC9500 There’s no reason to.. Besides we have plenty of surface water available on the Great Lakes if something like this were to happen.. Don’t hold your breath.. Four out of five Great Lakes prefer Michigan.
SD60MAC9500 There’s no reason to.. Besides we have plenty of surface water available on the Great Lakes if something like this were to happen.. Don’t hold your breath..
There’s no reason to.. Besides we have plenty of surface water available on the Great Lakes if something like this were to happen.. Don’t hold your breath..
Four out of five Great Lakes prefer Michigan.
Ahh yes! What part of the state do you reside at?
I've often wondered if "cañada geese" might be more appropriate.
Convicted One Here is a little clip that I shot in my back yard a couple years ago:
Here is a little clip that I shot in my back yard a couple years ago:
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
SD60MAC9500 Backshop SD60MAC9500 There’s no reason to.. Besides we have plenty of surface water available on the Great Lakes if something like this were to happen.. Don’t hold your breath.. Four out of five Great Lakes prefer Michigan. Ahh yes! What part of the state do you reside at?
It was a horror movie for this guy:
As to the question of trains hauling water long distances, (and that's assuming the supply & legal issues are resolved), wouldn't it make more sense or be cheaper for a pipeline to be used than railcars?
Math enthusiasts, start your engines!
NKP guyAs to the question of trains hauling water long distances, (and that's assuming the supply & legal issues are resolved), wouldn't it make more sense or be cheaper for a pipeline to be used than railcars?
Ultimately, yes, but...
Building the pipe line would probably bring all sort of foes out of the woodwork.
And you have the problem of possibly not needing it once the water shortage is over - possibly because it rained enouigh to make importing water unnecessary.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding That looks like a good beginning for a horror movie- the ordinary, quiet day and then...The Birds II- this time, they're Canadian!
It's not only the over population that has me concerned it is instead of honking like regular geese the Canadian geese make this strange sound...."eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?". Then they hiss and flap their wings at you if your just minding your business walking by. Almost as bad as riding a train in Quebec during a Mary Kay convention.
CMStPnP Murphy Siding That looks like a good beginning for a horror movie- the ordinary, quiet day and then...The Birds II- this time, they're Canadian! It's not only the over population that has me concerned it is instead of honking like regular geese the Canadian geese make this strange sound...."eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?, eh?". Then they hiss and flap their wings at you if your just minding your business walking by. Almost as bad as riding a train in Quebec during a Mary Kay convention.
Sully is not a fan of Canadian geese over New York!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Four years ago, some background on the potential methods, costs, and participation (or not) of BNSF and UP was covered here:
https://www.railwayage.com/freight/class-i/drought-relief-by-rail/
Mr. Kelly, why is your original blog entry from 2014 (referenced in the 2015 article) no longer available? Do you have a link to a copy we could read?
It's interesting to read the linked-to article at the Railway Age site, particularly in context with the Poseidon desalination plant in Carlsbad CA 's production being equivalent to 2,700 rail cars per day (27 loaded trains arriving per day, with an equivalent amount of empties departing). And that total amount equaling only 7% of San Diego county's total water requirement.
I question whether sufficient quantities of WBR can be shipped to even be relevant?
From the article linkewd by Bruce Kelly (thanks!):
"Desalinated water delivered to San Diego County will reportedly work out to just over one cent per gallon to residential users. WBR, if priced anything like CBR, could cost anywhere from 10 to 32 cents per gallon, or more."
The desalinated rate of 1+ cent per gallon is consistent with the typical rate for 'regular' water in my post yesterday - 1.33 cents per gallon, $3.33 per day, $100 per month, $1,200 per year for a typical residential home.
Multiply those figures by 10 to 32 and think about what the effect would be on the average household. Also consider the subsidy concepts in that article.
Thought experiment: Suppose a prospective buyer of a house in Arizona becomes aware that his water rate after the purchase is going to be $1,200 per year more than it is now. What effect will that have on how much he's willing to pay for that house, all else being equal? Hint: If the monthly total of mortgage plus water bill stays the same, then that means the amount of the mortgage payment would be $100 per month less. So how much less principal of the mortgage could he get for that lesser payment?
- PDN.
CMStPnPThen they hiss and flap their wings at you if your just minding your business walking by.
True story: I was sitting out on my river bank earlier this year when a Canada goose walked up and stood right beside me.
"Have a seat" I implored........got no response, so I repeated two more times. Still no response
So then I said "Asseyez-vous", and the goose promptly sat down beside me.
"Ahhhh", I exclaimed, "You're from Quebec?"
I'm sure it was just a situational awareness type thing, but the timing was impeccable.
I don't understand why you weren't civil and said 'êtes-vous du Québec?'
I would regularly have Canada geese come up from my pond to investigate while I was working on cars in the garage. Made me nervous at first to see those bills and eyes out of the corner of my vision... but it was interesting to see them crane to look under to see something I'd just reached in to work on. Very interesting birds with their own 'personalities,' much like cats.
tree68And you have the problem of possibly not needing it once the water shortage is over - possibly because it rained enouigh to make importing water unnecessary.
This is one that I wanted to ask about.
Southern California had a very wet winter last year. Yet most of the water ran into the ocean. To make matters worse, some dams which could have helped capture the water have been removed.
One of the problems stated in the following article is the cost of building systems to capture the water.
Maybe building water capture systems should have been a higher priority than the billions spent on HSR.
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-rainwater-lost-wet-winter-california-20190220-story.html
York1 John
Paul_D_North_Jr From the article linkewd by Bruce Kelly (thanks!): "Desalinated water delivered to San Diego County will reportedly work out to just over one cent per gallon to residential users. WBR, if priced anything like CBR, could cost anywhere from 10 to 32 cents per gallon, or more." The desalinated rate of 1+ cent per gallon is consistent with the typical rate for 'regular' water in my post yesterday - 1.33 cents per gallon, $3.33 per day, $100 per month, $1,200 per year for a typical residential home.
My recollection was that the cost of water at the plant was a bit less than one cent per gallon based on $2000 per acre foot talked about during the brouhaha over construction of the plant. The additional cost may have to do with the cost of the pipeline connecting the plant to the SDCWA. The major part of the cost is the cost of the plant itself, water from the Poseidon plant uses less energy than water for San Diego from NorCal and certainly a lot less energy than WBR from the midwest.
One of te cheapest ways that Las Vegas can get more water is to pay for SoCal water districts to instal desal plants in exchange for the Colorado River water rights.
FWIW, it looked like Bruce Kelly's old neighborhood in Thousand Oaks was part of the evacuation area for the "Easy" fire that started in Simi Valley. I used to live about a mile away from where he used to live.
Erik_MagOne of the cheapest ways that Las Vegas can get more water is to pay for SoCal water districts to install desal plants in exchange for the Colorado River water rights.
Surely someone has written this up in detail, populated with numbers, and researched the men and women who would be responsible for ultimately negotiating for it and then providing the capacity?
If not, what are some source materials? This may be good enough to pursue even outside of California.
Overmod I don't understand why you weren't civil and said 'êtes-vous du Québec?' I would regularly have Canada geese come up from my pond to investigate while I was working on cars in the garage. Made me nervous at first to see those bills and eyes out of the corner of my vision... but it was interesting to see them crane to look under to see something I'd just reached in to work on. Very interesting birds with their own 'personalities,' much like cats.
Johnny
OvermodIf not, what are some source materials? This may be good enough to pursue even outside of California.
Arizona received a bigger slice of the Colorado River allotment in exchange for it's contributions to the Brock Reservoir in California
DeggestySo, "bird-brain" is not necessarily a derogative term?
Depends entirely on the bird.
Perhaps the single smartest act of reasoning I ever saw from an animal was from a bird. This was in a hunting camp north of the Arctic Circle in the Brooks Range. One of the guides happened upon a baby raven that had been pushed out of its nest (this happens a lot with ravens) and was able to keep it alive as a pet. Of course it was socialized with people.
We'd been playing with the camp dog for a couple of days using a big stick, which we'd hold in the adjacent stream. The dog would clamp down on the stick with his nose under water and hold on until he finally had to come up for air ... then clamp down again. One afternoon we were dragging the stick to the stream, with the dog happily frisking with anticipation, and I look behind me ... to see the raven happily popping along, carrying a raven-size stick in his beak so he could play, too.
You can see what this implied: he understood the 'game', wanted to be part of it, realized what the 'equipment' involved, and scaled it to his size.
And yes, when we got to the stream, he happily seized on the stick under the water and wouldn't let go until he had to come up for air...
Overmod Deggesty So, "bird-brain" is not necessarily a derogative term? Depends entirely on the bird. Perhaps the single smartest act of reasoning I ever saw from an animal was from a bird. This was in a hunting camp north of the Arctic Circle in the Brooks Range. One of the guides happened upon a baby raven that had been pushed out of its nest (this happens a lot with ravens) and was able to keep it alive as a pet. Of course it was socialized with people. We'd been playing with the camp dog for a couple of days using a big stick, which we'd hold in the adjacent stream. The dog would clamp down on the stick with his nose under water and hold on until he finally had to come up for air ... then clamp down again. One afternoon we were dragging the stick to the stream, with the dog happily frisking with anticipation, and I look behind me ... to see the raven happily popping along, carrying a raven-size stick in his beak so he could play, too. You can see what this implied: he understood the 'game', wanted to be part of it, realized what the 'equipment' involved, and scaled it to his size. And yes, when we got to the stream, he happily seized on the stick under the water and wouldn't let go until he had to come up for air...
Deggesty So, "bird-brain" is not necessarily a derogative term?
Recently broadcast on PBS
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/ravens-discover-the-brainpower-of-the-bird-in-black/1507/
OvermodYou can see what this implied: he understood the 'game', wanted to be part of it, realized what the 'equipment' involved, and scaled it to his size.
There is a city park approx 3/4 mile upstream from my riverbank location, same river flows through it, and so all the geese who are familiar with me from my location readily recognize me when I am at the park.
I was sitting on a hillside near the river about 3 years ago, and this one gander that I was particularly familiar with, comes walking up to me with $32 "quarter folded" in it's mouth. A twenty, a ten and two ones tightly folded around one another. When it got close I grabbed the the wad, and was truly surprised to find it was money.
I looked over on the slope to where it had come from, and saw more debris sitting in the grass. A drivers license and two credit cards. Evidently all of it had slipped out of someones back pocket as they sat on the slope.... I really don't believe that the gander consciously made a retrieval for me.....but I suspect that the money smelled like humans, and the gander made the association. And of course being his "favorite" human, I was the beneficiary. (Later I encountered two cops at a Starbucks, and surrendered it all for them to return....and the odd thing was, they really didn't want to get involved.. Told me to drop it in a mailbox.)
3 months later I saw a picture of the same guy in the local paper in the "Outstanding warrants" section...small world...eh?
And, about a mile downstream from me is a railroad bridge, where during nesting season a pair of geese regularly nested high on a center river pier under the bridge.
I have a three tone whistle that I have made the geese familiar with, and during nesting season I can walk back to my bank, utter the sequence twice, and about a minute later both geese will come flying abreast around the bend in the river about 20 feet above it's surface, honking like crazy, and fly straight towards me, splashing down about 30 feet in front of me before swimming the rest of the way to my side.
There are about 150 geese total that recognize and respond to my whistle, but none as spectacularly as that first pair.
My neighbor asks me which one of them is "Willard".
Overmod, here's a link to the 2014 blog piece that should work. It contained a couple of sketchy assumptions on my part about car capacity, train length, density of water compared to other liquids that are hauled by rail, etc., which I worked out more thoroughly in the 2015 story.
https://www.railwayage.com/news/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water/
I should point out that not only did BNSF and others look closely at the potential for handling WBR (as noted in the 2015 story), RA Editor Bill Vantuono told me that officials at a rail conference held some months after that story was published were heard saying that if declines in coal and other key markets didn't turn around, they could always switch to hauling water. I said to Bill, "Ah, they're just poking fun at my story." But he replied that there were some in attendance who were actually somewhat serious about the subject.
A few weeks ago on PBS there was a short series (3 episodes, I think) called something like "Land Of Oz" about wildlife in Australia. One story was about a bird that would actually set grass fires. It was a bird of prey that learned that brush fires would flush out rodents and other small prey, and learned to set fires by picking up a burning stick from an existing fire, flying to another area and dropping it, starting new fires.
Sorry, Bruce, I know that you were trying to get back to the subject of trains, but this fascinated me.
Edit: It just occurred to me: I think the program was on BBCAmerica, not PBS.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Overmod Erik_Mag One of the cheapest ways that Las Vegas can get more water is to pay for SoCal water districts to install desal plants in exchange for the Colorado River water rights. Surely someone has written this up in detail, populated with numbers, and researched the men and women who would be responsible for ultimately negotiating for it and then providing the capacity? If not, what are some source materials? This may be good enough to pursue even outside of California.
Erik_Mag One of the cheapest ways that Las Vegas can get more water is to pay for SoCal water districts to install desal plants in exchange for the Colorado River water rights.
My cousin recently moved to Lost Wages after she and her husband retired from the Gillette WY school system. Her husband stated that LV has the "pay for SoCal desal plants" as one actively researched option for increasing their water supply. The San Diego County Water Authority did something similar by paying the Imperial Irrigation District to line the All American Canal and then transfer the rights of the water saved to SDCWA.
I had been hoping that the Carlsbad plant would get built (as indeed it did) in part because the desal water would be much softer than the Colorado river water.
Having thought about this for a few days, I can say that anyone who would build or buy a house in a location that was dependant on WBR would have to have a hole in their head.
Based upon discussion of others here in this thread, it appears that the RRs would only have an interest in doing this at an affordable rate, as a filler when their "bread and butter" traffic is depressed.
SO, once you are dependant upon it, what happens when the RRs lose interest because other traffic is more lucrative?
Also, with only one or two railroads capable of carrying the Minnesota-Arizona routing, given the life or death nature of having water available, empowers those two railroads more than I'd feel comfortable with.
I just don't see it happening on a long-term basis.
Disaster relief? perhaps, assuming the railroads can assemble the needed equipment within a reasonable time span.
Convicted OneHaving thought about this for a few days, I can say that anyone who would build or buy a house in a location that was dependant on WBR would have to have a hole in their head. Based upon discussion of others here in this thread, it appears that the RRs would only have an interest in doing this at an affordable rate, as a filler when their "bread and butter" traffic is depressed. SO, once you are dependant upon it, what happens when the RRs lose interest because other traffic is more lucrative? Also, with only one or two railroads capable of carrying the Minnesota-Arizona routing, given the life or death nature of having water available, empowers those two railroads more than I'd feel comfortable with. I just don't see it happening on a long-term basis. Disaster relief? perhaps, assuming the railroads can assemble the needed equipment within a reasonable time span.
Well - during the steam era, railroads in the 'desert Southwest' existed on Water by Rail. One reason that those areas were dieselized first. The economics of WBR mandated that it be eliminated ASAP.
Convicted OneHaving thought about this for a few days, I can say that anyone who would build or buy a house in a location that was dependant on WBR would have to have a hole in their head.
I've encountered more than a few houses who relied on a cistern for their water. Said cistern was usually filled by rainfall and/or a spring. If both of those sources failed, it was water by truck...
My fire department used to haul water for such purposes. Nowadays most folks have finally drilled a well. Municipal water isn't available out here in the sticks, yet.
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