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Using steam boilers on GP9's separated from passenger cars?

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, November 19, 2019 4:49 PM

charlie hebdo

Dave: As someone with at least a passing interest in biblical scholarship I'd also like more info on the Babylonian Talmud. 

 

Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Oops! Different book, but train related. Whistling

 

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:55 AM

Forget just where, but yes, it's included.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:11 AM

And some of the companies were not decrepit.  Some were.  Some, like Baltimore had bought new PCCs and had some good Peter Witts as well, with much private-right-of-way and plans for further modernization.

However, I will concede that in most cases, probably aboug 80%, long range, conversion to buses made economic sense anyway.  Indeed, most of the smaller systems could continue as private systems as long as they did only because of the economy of diesel bus operation.

Today, many if not most modern streetcar and light rail systems are called successful for other reasons than just better transportation, urban revival, an attraction, history, etc.  A streetcar in general is more economical than a bus in transportion only if it is necessary to move more than 20,000 people past a given point in one direction during the rush hour.

When I read about "succesful" light rail or streetcar lines with 5000 passengers or fares a day, I really wonder.

Jerusalem's one line carries 140,000 fares a day.  Obviously, most ride twice.  And many ride connecting buses.  New lines are under construction and planning.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:35 AM

Another point that the GM/NCL conspiracy fans ignore is that a lot of properties not owned or managed by National City Lines converted to bus just as quickly.

I've observed that most modern light rail operations fall somewhere between streetcars and rapid transit, having features of both.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:46 AM

The issue of whether companies with a vested interest in the elimination of streetcars did anything to push for that objective is not a simplistic dichotomy,  all or nothing.  Very few things are. Most real life events are multifactorial.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:08 AM

One case is definite:  GM really owned New York Railways, who operated directly, or through subsidiaries, most of Manhattan's streetcar lines, after 1926, and the purchase was definitely for the purpose of conversion to buses. The conversion occured in 1935 and 1936, after a real transit bus was developed, two models, 36-seat sloped-back and 40-seat straight-back.

Also, GM's policy of leasing buses helped conversion where there was no GM ownership.  The Twin Cities system's new management scrapped a well-maintained streetcar system with good loading on major lines and with some PCCs, realized the income from sales of scrap, including the wire of course, and PCCs resold for further use elsewhere, then leased buses.  The leasing costs were operating expenses and justification for higher fares.  The exact same events occured with the large and fairly new Providence, RI, trolleybus system. I believe there were other examples.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 11:22 AM

Thanks Dave.  Those are great examples of intent, action and consequences of GM policy. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, November 21, 2019 7:11 PM

Murphy Siding
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Same origins, different part -- Mishlei Schlomo, no?

Pity the 'train' is in the sense of espaliers and bonsai, isn't it?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, November 23, 2019 12:10 PM

Back to the IC, but with E units:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurbig/49110885511/

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 23, 2019 12:39 PM

charlie hebdo

Notice that there are no markers being displayed!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, November 23, 2019 6:18 PM

Maybe a backup move as still using the St. Charles Air Line and Central  (12th St.)  Station. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 23, 2019 7:21 PM

charlie hebdo
Maybe a backup move as still using the St. Charles Air Line and Central  (12th St.)  Station. 

Don't see a Back-up Hose in use - Markers are sitting on the floor behind the passenger gate.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:10 PM

BaltACD

 

 
charlie hebdo
Maybe a backup move as still using the St. Charles Air Line and Central  (12th St.)  Station. 

 

Don't see a Back-up Hose in use - Markers are sitting on the floor behind the passenger gate.

 

I dunno but is it possible a short move with a short train would not have required the use of a backup hose? 

I'm having trouble orienting myself as to direction of the train.  It appears to be facing north from a bit south of 18th street,  but maybe not. 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, November 23, 2019 9:31 PM

BaltACD
Don't see a Back-up Hose in use - Markers are sitting on the floor behind the passenger gate.

Many of our coaches (former CNR) have a whistle and a brake valve (such as would be on a back-up hose) installed within the car.  While we use a back-up hose when appropriate, it would be possible to do such a move in such a car without the back-up hose.  I think some of ours have been disabled as they are otherwise not needed.

I don't see a whistle on the end of the car like ours have.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 25, 2019 6:50 AM

That's an IC Iowa line train climbing to the St. Charles Air Line, on its approach to Central Station.  C&WI approach to Dearborn on left, AT&SF Archer Ave Coach Yard on right.  Marker lamps are visible on the floor of the coach behind the gate. IC rulebook may not have required markers in signal territory.  Or... there might be a following second section, in which case IT would display the markers.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, November 25, 2019 8:39 AM

rcdrye

That's an IC Iowa line train climbing to the St. Charles Air Line, on its approach to Central Station.  C&WI approach to Dearborn on left, AT&SF Archer Ave Coach Yard on right.  Marker lamps are visible on the floor of the coach behind the gate. IC rulebook may not have required markers in signal territory.  Or... there might be a following second section, in which case IT would display the markers.

 

Thanks for clarification.  So it is not backing up,  right? 

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Posted by MMLDelete on Monday, November 25, 2019 10:49 PM

What is a backup hose?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 25, 2019 10:56 PM

Lithonia Operator
What is a backup hose?

A current one - it allows the person protecting the 'point' on a back up move to have control of the air brakes and it also has a segment of the valve that will sound a whistle when required by the rules

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by greyhounds on Monday, November 25, 2019 11:24 PM

rcdrye

That's an IC Iowa line train climbing to the St. Charles Air Line, on its approach to Central Station.  C&WI approach to Dearborn on left, AT&SF Archer Ave Coach Yard on right.  Marker lamps are visible on the floor of the coach behind the gate. IC rulebook may not have required markers in signal territory.  Or... there might be a following second section, in which case IT would display the markers.

 

Yes, I make it to be one of my favorites, the IC's "Land O'Corn".  The train had a morning departure from Waterloo, IA and an around noon arrival in Chicago.  Intermediate points such as Dubuque, IA, Freeport, IL, and Rockford, IL were served.  Return was an evening departure from Chicago.  

The trains carried head end, including Flexi-Van, RPO, and baggage/express. (The Flexi-Van flatcar had a steam line.)  Coaches and a full diner.  You may see the diner in the photo.

I'll GUESS the consist is headed for the Chicago station to load passengers for its westbound run.  It's not an official train yet, so that's why the markers aren't hung.  

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by cx500 on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 1:31 PM

rcdrye
Or... there might be a following second section, in which case IT would display the markers.

While I am not an authority on every railroad's rulebooks, I firmly believe every section of a train must display markers.  While they may use the same timetable authority, train orders may specify meets with each section separately.  Each is a discrete train and must display markers to confirm that specific section has passed completely.  It can be critical if a freight train has to double a grade.

The non-display of markers suggests it is not yet formally a train, merely a yard movement backing into the terminal.

John

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Posted by cv_acr on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 1:47 PM

cx500

 

 
rcdrye
Or... there might be a following second section, in which case IT would display the markers.

 

While I am not an authority on every railroad's rulebooks, I firmly believe every section of a train must display markers.  While they may use the same timetable authority, train orders may specify meets with each section separately.  Each is a discrete train and must display markers to confirm that specific section has passed completely.  It can be critical if a freight train has to double a grade.

The non-display of markers suggests it is not yet formally a train, merely a yard movement backing into the terminal.

John

 

Yes, each "section" is a complete train in its own right. Sections were used to run multiple trains using one timetable schedule and not have to create and protect all kinds of extras. (Which is easy to send a whole bunch of extras in one direction since they just need to get out of everyone's way, hard to send them in both directions since now you have to explicitly protect the extras against each other.)

If an inferior train had to wait for one ore more superior ones, any number of trains (all with proper rear markers) displaying green flags/lights ("section following") can go by while you're waiting; you're not done waiting until the correct number of trains go by NOT displaying signals. But each of those "sections" is a full train.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:15 PM

Read Ken's (greyhound) post.  Not a 2nd section. I really doubt if the Hawkeye or Land of Corn ever had multiple sections in the diesel era.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:52 PM

Rulebooks allowed for sections of one schedule to exchange position--for a two-section train, the former first section would turn its classification lights onand give its orders to operating crew of the new first section train and receive the orders of the former second section train, and the former second section would douse its classification lights, and exchange orders with the former first section. Of course, any orders that named engine numbers wouold have to be resissued, showing that the exchange in positions had taken place--this would include orders issued to opposing trains.

Johnny

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Posted by MMLDelete on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 8:28 PM

BaltACD

 

 
Lithonia Operator
What is a backup hose?

 

A current one - it allows the person protecting the 'point' on a back up move to have control of the air brakes and it also has a segment of the valve that will sound a whistle when required by the rules

 

 

 

Thanks.

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