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Rail suppliers decry Chinese business practices; say the U.S. is at 'economic war'

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, October 1, 2019 1:06 AM

Psychot
 
BaltACD

All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products. 

The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.

Who said the government was involved?  Epionage does not require government agency involvement.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, October 1, 2019 12:12 AM
 

Psychot

 

 
BaltACD

All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products.

 

 

 

The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.

 

@Psychot

I take it you haven't worked in the domestic auto industry???.....

 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, September 30, 2019 11:40 PM

Flintlock76

And the Nazis did  exercise controls of production of goods, plus prices and wages.  It was all part of their policy of gleichshaltung,  or co-ordination.  German industrialists were all too willing to go along with it because it lessened the problems of competition with one another.  At any rate, it was a lot better than they would have expected had the Communists taken power, although after a while a lot of German businessmen said that being in business in Nazi Germany was like being the conductor of a runaway bus,  You could take the money, but you had no control over the speed or direction the bus was going!

The western Allied countries implemented price controls, rationing and much other production management as part of the war effort.  Of course after the war ended most of those businesses eventually went back to private enterprise. 

While I still think the Nazis and Soviet wannabe communists (there has never been and probably never will be a true communist state) were on different parts of the political left/right spectrum, I do agree that the experience and freedom of a regular working-class citizen would have been about the same under Hitler as it was under Stalin.  After all, they were both dictators with forces of secret police, no different than Saddam, Gaddafi, or the last Shah of Iran.

Flintlock76

Anyone else can have the last word.  Then maybe I'll start on the Red Chinese, although I don't know what else there is to be said on that subject that hasn't been said already.

Talking about the Chinese would get this thread back on topic, before it inevitably gets shut down.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 10:38 PM

Thanks for the kind words Alphas! 

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Posted by alphas on Monday, September 30, 2019 10:29 PM

Flintlock76 gives a nice, condensed explanation of explaining how the National Socialist Party operated economically under Hitler.   [I wrote a 52 page paper on Hitler's economic policy for a grad school class and it could also be very briefly summarized about the same.]    The idea of the nazis as a right wing party was pushed by the communists and their supporters in an attempt to discredit them.    Hitler constantly sold his party as a "National Socialist" one to the average German who had been through terrible economic times after the end of WWI.    His rise to power came down to who the remaining traditional minded Germans would support.   It was believed that either he or the communists would take over if a bloody civil war broke out in Germany which was a definite possibility at the time.  In the end, they elected to go with him because of his nationalistic stance versus a communist party tied to Russia.   But in no way could the Nazi government be called "right-wing" both back then or today.    

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 10:29 PM

I keep forgetting the 9th and 15th Air Forces.  My apologies, shame on me!

Your mentioning Churchill reminded me of something.  When Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union then-senator Harry Truman was asked what the US should do about it.

Know what Harry said?

"I think we should just sit back and watch them rip the hell out of each other!"

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, September 30, 2019 10:11 PM

The 3 biggest targets for the 9th Air Force that is the Medium bombers that we used in the European theatre in WW2. They're in order railroad tracks particular bridges over rivers followed by yards and shops. Second was highway bridges of any kind. Last was airfields and troop marshalling areas things like armor repair depots ammo dumps fuel dumps. The 8th and 15th boy's concentrated on things like oil production facilities. Germany was heavily reliant on synthetic oil and gas industry in WW2 except for the Romanian oil production facilities. They also bombed the aircraft and other heavy production facilities. The British did area bombing in the cities at night. 

 

It's been said that Churchill when he heard Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 41 literally said that if Germany had been invaded the other way around it might have been the Germans getting the British as the ally instead of the Soviet Union. Neither of those 2 nation's were well liked by Western nation's based upon their own actions. It was literally pick the least offensive one to help.  

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 10:04 PM

Erik_Mag

 

 
Flintlock76

Let's get the definition straight.  The Nazis never referred to themselves as "Nazis," it was always "National Socialists."  "Nazi" was a pejorative term used by others, it derived from "Ignatz," a German comic character.  "Ignatz" was a Bavarian "hayseed" who also went by the name "Natzi."  Get it?  "Ig-Natzi."

 

 

My high school German teacher said that "Nazi" was derived from the pronunciation of "Nationellen". She did mention that one of the post war reactions to the horrors of that era was that "Fraktur" typefaces were banned after WW2. She also mentioned that the train stations in Germnay were almost always brand new as the station and yard tracks were target nummer eins for the bombers.

 

Oh, I heard that too, years ago.  Nazi from National Sozialist, the complete version is National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, or National Socialist German Workers Party.  Also referred to a the NSDAP.

But the thing is, in seeing interviews of surviors of the era, in the party or close to it, I've never heard any of them use the term "Nazi," it's always National Socialist or NSDAP.  I've never heard Hitler use "Nazi" in any of the speeches we see on film, or any other of the top Nazis for that matter, it's always National Socialist.

Matter of fact, in the speech that's the climax of "Triumph Of The Will" Hitler roars out "Es lebe die National Sozialistische bewegung!  Es lebe Deutschland!"

"Long live the National Socialist movement!  Long live Germany!"

I don't mind using the term "Nazi" at all, by the way, it's a lot more convenient! 

It also means the idiot native Nazis we've got in this country calling themselves such don't know what the hell they're talking about!   

No surprise about the train stations.  Urban renewal courtesy of the RAF and the 8th Air Force.  Oh, brother...

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, September 30, 2019 9:50 PM

CMSt.P&P-- Canadian population is NOT 15 million, 37.06 Million 2018

You only missed by >22 Million. 

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Monday, September 30, 2019 9:26 PM

Flintlock76

Let's get the definition straight.  The Nazis never referred to themselves as "Nazis," it was always "National Socialists."  "Nazi" was a pejorative term used by others, it derived from "Ignatz," a German comic character.  "Ignatz" was a Bavarian "hayseed" who also went by the name "Natzi."  Get it?  "Ig-Natzi."

My high school German teacher said that "Nazi" was derived from the pronunciation of "Nationellen". She did mention that one of the post war reactions to the horrors of that era was that "Fraktur" typefaces were banned after WW2. She also mentioned that the train stations in Germnay were almost always brand new as the station and yard tracks were target nummer eins for the bombers.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, September 30, 2019 9:10 PM

charlie hebdo

Our government has been subsidizing Boeing commercial airliner division for years through DOD contracts,  but our hawkish members apparently never heard of Ike's warning about the MIC. 

I think that charge is very misleading and gets one specific political party that likes to manipulate the tax code off the hook.   The majority of the subsidies that the WTO is arguing about on the Boeing side are tax subsidies and tax incentives to build plants in specific states or produce jobs.   The argument that Boeing benefits from DoD technological spillover might be a bit stronger if Airbus, Embraer, and Bombardier did not also land defense contracts or did not benefit from the same technological spillover.   Fact is they do and in fact they all admit they do.  They are just complaining because their specific countries defense budget is not as large as the United States (especially Canada bitches about it)    Gee I don't know 15 million people in Canada vs 320 million or so in the United States?   Little disparity there in Defense Budget.....ya think?   So Canadian Defense (and railcar) manufacturers like Bombardier complain only that Canadian Defense spending is very paltry compared to the United States.   Whose fault is that?

They are just bitching about DoD contracts to Boeing because their respective governments choose to buy Boeing products over their domestically made Bombardier, Embraer, and Airbus substitutes.   That is free choice of their respective governments and has zero to do with an actual subsidy.   

It's called the marketplace in operation and governments choosing interoperability or higher quality over what they can get domestically.    Our DoD returns the favor via purchases from European arms manufacturers when it is proven via tests they have the better system.   Also, the marketplace in action.   Sometimes that is stymied by "Buy American" provisions but those are not done via Boeing those are again the politicians to "save jobs".

Google recent WTO decisions on these matters.    Recent decisions point to tax advantages Boeing gets over competitors.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, September 30, 2019 8:41 PM

SD70Dude
Boxcars are still in high demand for pulp and paper products. 

They are needed for auto parts for assembly shipments as well.  

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Posted by Convicted One on Monday, September 30, 2019 8:03 PM

Gramp
Two socialist regimes, the Nazi's and the Soviet's, started WWII in Europe by together attacking Poland.  As leftist's do, the Nazi's then turned on the Soviets.

Bow I just want to say, that might be the single greatest paragraph I've ever seen posted on this forum. Bow

You just made my day.  Unfortunately I give this thread less than a 2% chance of survival tomorrow.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 8:00 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
Flintlock76

 

 
charlie hebdo

And as more places eliminate hydrocarbon-based packaging, the wood pulp demand will grow. 

 

 

 

The woodland preservationists are just going to love  that.

I thought the whole point of hydrocarbon-based packaging was to preserve timber resources?  

 

 

 

Wood guy here. More wood grows on trees in the US and in the world than the amount that gets taken out every year. Wood- it's like the stuff grows on trees!

 

 

Oh you know that, and know that, but there's a very vocal group of people out there who don't seem to know that, or want to know that, or even care about that.

You know who I mean.  

Just so you know, I'm a conservationist myself, of the Teddy Roosevelt school.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 30, 2019 7:50 PM

Flintlock76

 

 
charlie hebdo

And as more places eliminate hydrocarbon-based packaging, the wood pulp demand will grow. 

 

 

 

The woodland preservationists are just going to love  that.

I thought the whole point of hydrocarbon-based packaging was to preserve timber resources?  

 

Wood guy here. More wood grows on trees in the US and in the world than the amount that gets taken out every year. Wood- it's like the stuff grows on trees!

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 7:47 PM

charlie hebdo

And as more places eliminate hydrocarbon-based packaging, the wood pulp demand will grow. 

 

The woodland preservationists are just going to love  that.

I thought the whole point of hydrocarbon-based packaging was to preserve timber resources?  

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 30, 2019 7:41 PM

charlie hebdo

And as more places eliminate hydrocarbon-based packaging, the wood pulp demand will grow. 

 

I'm not sure I understand that. Can you give some examples?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 7:41 PM

There is nothing inaccurate in what she said.

As the second-place winners in the "Game of Thrones" the German communist leadership was immediately packed off to concentration camps.  The rank-and-file, not so much, that would have been impractical.  All other political parties in Germany were outlawed as well, but if you kept your mouth shut and went along the program as laid out by the Nazis you could get along.  But if you didn't...

And don't feel too much sympathy for the Communists, their goal was tyranny as well.

It was political opponents of the Nazis who were packed off to the concentration camps first.  What came to be known as the Holocaust didn't drop on Germany's Jews like a hammer-blow right after Hitler took power.  That was ratcheted up slowly over a period of years until the ultimate, horrific outcome.

No, you didn't have to be Jewish to find yourself in a concentration camp, that is if you weren't beaten to death by an SA or SS-Mann first.

And the Nazis did  exercise controls of production of goods, plus prices and wages.  It was all part of their policy of gleichshaltung,  or co-ordination.  German industrialists were all too willing to go along with it because it lessened the problems of competition with one another.  At any rate, it was a lot better than they would have expected had the Communists taken power, although after a while a lot of German businessmen said that being in business in Nazi Germany was like being the conductor of a runaway bus,  You could take the money, but you had no control over the speed or direction the bus was going! 

Let's get the definition straight.  The Nazis never referred to themselves as "Nazis," it was always "National Socialists."  "Nazi" was a pejorative term used by others, it derived from "Ignatz," a German comic character.  "Ignatz" was a Bavarian "hayseed" who also went by the name "Natzi."  Get it?  "Ig-Natzi."

And the Nazis took the socialism part seriously.  Universal health care?  They had it.  Affordable low-income housing, and quality housing as well?  They provided that too.  Full employment?  You bet.  If you needed a job the Party would find you one, maybe not your dream job, but you'd be working, earning money and self-respect. 

But look at the cost!  

The Nazis were left-wingers all right, I didn't believe it myself until I did the research.  Read the Nazi Party manifesto.  Read the Goebbels diaries.  Watch that Nazi Titanic  movie the next time one of the history channels shows it, it's not just anti-British, it's anti-capitalist as well.

Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Himmler never called themselves conservatives, they called themselves revolutionaries.  They meant it too. 

Look at the line from the Nazi Party song "Die Fahne Hoch,"  

Comrades by Red Front and Reaction killed are buried, but march with us in spirit at our side!  

Don't be fooled by the militarism, no-one, right or left, has a monopoly on that.  The only right-wing militarists we fought in World War Two were the Japanese.

That's all I'm going to say on that subject.  I'm reminded of the debating society competion rule of "The first side that mentions Hitler loses!" 

Anyone else can have the last word.  Then maybe I'll start on the Red Chinese, although I don't know what else there is to be said on that subject that hasn't been said already.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 30, 2019 7:40 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
Shadow the Cats owner

The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment.  Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka. 

 

 

 

I think you need an in-depth course in 20th C. European history. 

 

Thank you. I agree.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, September 30, 2019 6:49 PM

Sorry, but her post has so much inaccuracy, it needs to be pointed out.  She should stick to telling us about trucks.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 6:46 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
Shadow the Cats owner

The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment.  Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka. 

 

 

 

I think you need an in-depth course in 20th C. European history. 

 

Sounds to me her husband's European relatives already got one, in spades.

Be kind.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, September 30, 2019 6:30 PM

You rightists like to peddle your opinions (some so ill-informed factually as to be hilarious) on here without restrainst but if anyone to the left of Mussolini challenges it, one of them will cry foul, i.e., report to the moderators that folks are being political. It's predictable and tiresome.

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Posted by Gramp on Monday, September 30, 2019 5:25 PM

SD70Dude,

I should have said "radicals".

Also, the US has been moving to the left, the Repubs. moving along with it.  I think largely Trump was elected because of this shift.  The average Joe (I include myself) was left without a country so to speak.  Pelosi has been forced farther left, farther than she actually is.  That's the why of my Robespierre comment.  Nobody is safe in this environment.  The radicals disavow history.

I think the dems have bloodlust for getting Trump out of office.  Nothing else matters.  Everything they have tried has been manufactured, and gone down in flames.  Impeachment is the last ditch effort, even to the point of losing control of the House next year.  It's necessary to see past the media, who are largely complicit, to get at the truth.  I've always tried to see or read what the person in question has actually said or written if I can.  If you read the transcript, Trump was doing his constitutional duty as President in his inquiries.

Again, just my thoughts.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, September 30, 2019 3:47 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment.  Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka. 

 

I think you need an in-depth course in 20th C. European history. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, September 30, 2019 3:34 PM

Psychot
BaltACD

All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products.

The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.

That's what they want you to think!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Psychot on Monday, September 30, 2019 3:13 PM

BaltACD

All countries are using every form of industrial espinogue to secure the secrets from the competition - USA, Japan, Germany, China and any other country that is trying to make products.

 

The US does not conduct industrial espionage. The intelligence community is expressly prohibited from doing so.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, September 30, 2019 2:32 PM

The only difference between Fascism to Socialism is in the latter the government owns everything the former they still allow private companies to exist. However both have rigid controls over the production of goods and services price controls and the economy. Failures to obey the government in either system are grounds for severe punishment.  Germany had concentration camps way before the outbreak off WW2. Instead of being filled with members of a certain faith they were filled with what were considered the other undesriables in Germany. People that opposed the government were the primary residents at first. My husband's family that hadn't immigrated to the USA after WW1 were such people. He's one of the last few of his dad's side alive. Why his entire family in Europe was destroyed by the German government for opposing Hitler's government when they took over what was then Cezchslovicka. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, September 27, 2019 9:07 PM

Sigh.  Yeah, not one of our proudest moments.  I'm honestly surprised that story seems to have died down fairly quickly, and hasn't become a bigger deal. 

But I can honestly say that I did not vote for his party, and our federal election campaign will be over in a month.  You guys still have over a year to go!

You will probably recall that Trudeau also made a fool of himself playing dress-up on his official visit to India in 2018.

For those who haven't followed this closely, the SNC-Lavalin affair really started almost 10 years ago when the company got caught paying bribes to Libyan officials in exchange for contracts over there.  Not exactly unusual for a company to pay bribes in that part of the world, but Lavalin was bad enough at it that they got caught.  I think some of the contracts they were bidding for had to do with the construction of a Libyan rail system (to keep this rail-related somehow).  Everything seemed to have died down within a couple years after the initial revelations, and to be honest I had forgotten that there was still a criminal case going on against Lavalin.

Where Trudeau overstepped his bounds this year was when he pressured our now former Attorney General to come to an agreement to avoid prosecution of Lavalin.  When she refused and went public he had her removed from that position and ultimately expelled from the Liberal party. 

A guilty verdict would exclude Lavalin from bidding on a number of lucrative Canadian goverment contracts.  The company is based in Montreal, and pandering to Quebec is a long-held tradition in Canadian federal politics.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by York1 on Friday, September 27, 2019 8:51 PM

Oh, OK.  An opinion.  I guess that changes everything.

I'll agree about entertainment, even when it concerns your blackface-makeup Prime Minister trying to distance himself from the SNC-Lavalin mess.

York1 John       

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