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classic warbirds attacking trains

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 26, 2020 10:12 AM

BaltACD
Try uBlock a extension for Chrome.

Thanks - that's one I'm still unfamiliar with.  I don't like Chrome, wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole except that I use a Chromebook as a light low=power 'road client' machine, and of course Google runs the same sort of bundled scam that Microshaft tried with Internet Exploiter all those years ago...

I've been resolutely trying not to jump on the Adblock Bandwagon in what is probably a misguided and laughed-at attempt to allow Kalmbach as much technical compensation for providing the forums free as possible.  It is almost at the point that I give up, since within the past three weeks or so ... seemingly from right after the mysterious lapse in being able to access the ability to post while being logged in for everything else (specifically including ad serving) ... it has become impossible not to click on one ad or another from time to time when pulling up threads.  The content bounces up and down, ads bloom from overhead without warning, they pop up below and then balloon if moused over, and there is no mechanism for editing out 'mistaken clickthrough' to particular sites, or reviewing exactly what content is supposed to be "interesting" to me based on back-end extraction of the things I 'click to visit' (as opposed to things I'm tricked into clicking) or the texts of things I post.  I am not deceived, I have made a point of understanding SEO evolution and the various fun abuses of cookies since the early '90s when much of the cookie handling was largely undocumented function, and I am neither unaware of or amused at heavy-handed attempts to monetize "free" resources or communities.

I'm waiting as long as I can for the promised Brave New World of the revised 'community experience', where one way or another we'll see if Kalmbach 'gets it' for this formerly-important segment of their far-flung and successful media empire concept.  But I'm not comfortably accepting the devolution in the meantime without comment, either. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Sunday, July 26, 2020 10:20 AM

Somehow, I don't think that the turboprop design of the Tu-95/Tu-114 would have made the cut in Western airline service.  Although the gearing worked to allow turboprop operation at higher speeds, the propeller blades were so long that the tips were supersonic (noisy).

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 26, 2020 10:33 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Although the gearing worked to allow turboprop operation at higher speeds, the propeller blades were so long that the tips were supersonic (noisy).

I'm reasonably certain that in airline service the blading would have been reduced to cut the tip noise (or use more blades of advanced tip shape).  As I recall there was considerable work in NACA/NASA to reduce high-performance propeller noise and shock generation, right up into what might be considered large-geared-fan design.  This gets to be more than usually important with contra-rotating prop designs, which I think would almost certainly have been tried as follow-ons to Electra-style large turboprop airliners or for designs intended to use high beta for landing thrust reversal of low-drag designs.    

I wonder if the blade configuration used for the Starship would produce lower noise if scaled appropriately for 'one of four' geared turboshafts of appropriate shp?

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, July 26, 2020 11:43 AM

Overmod

 

Erik_Mag
Unlike the Wright TC's, the turbine was connected by a shaft to the impeller of the first compressor stage.

Can you be a bit more specific (or link to drawing(s) or specific sources?

 

Source: pg 388 of "Vees for Victory!" by Daniel D. Whitney (c) 1998, Schiffer Publishing Company.

Picture a standard turbocharger with an extension shaft from the compressor end. This shaft is then geared to a fluid clutch or torque converter which then is geared to the rear of the crankshaft. The second stage supercharger was also geared to the rear end of the crankshaft. Note that a good fraction of the V-1710 production was used in P-38's where one engine was turing in the opposite direction of the other. Allison used the same cranshaft for both, flipping the fore/aft cranshaft ends between the two engines.

Development of the Allison TC was dropped partly because of the limited market for liquid cooled aircraft engines as well as the supplier of the exhaust turbine, GE, wasn't putting much effort into development.

The Wright TC had three PRT's, each of which was good for ~300 hp for a total of 800 to 900 hp. The PRT's were spaced 120 degrees around the rear of the engine and power was transmitted through a fluid coupling and then some sort of 90 degree gearing to the crankshaft.

The "low sfc" project for the R4360, was the Variable Discharge Turbine. The gist was that "throttling" was done by using a nozzle to constrict the flow from the exhaust turbine. Some rather spectacular claims were made for range and service ceiling improvements for the B-36, but the increase in cooling fan power negated much of that. Would have been interesting to see what it could have done in the Republic Rainbow.

Liquid cooled engines will often have a low sfc as the liquid cooling allows for lower cylinder head temperatures which then allows for a higher compression ratio. Note that the Allison V-1710 had 4 valves per cylinder.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 26, 2020 12:30 PM

Erik_Mag
Picture a standard turbocharger with an extension shaft from the compressor end. This shaft is then geared to a fluid clutch or torque converter which then is geared to the rear of the crankshaft. The second stage supercharger was also geared to the rear end of the crankshaft.

The problem is, try as I might, I can't find any reference that says the exhaust turbine used on the compounded V-1710 had an actual compressor installed on it; one reference says the turbine came from a turbosupercharger design but was explicitly reduced to producing torque only.

I will now have to find a copy of Vees for Victory and see what the detail actually is.  This is not so bad as I can get the poop on the yet more interesting V-3420-B (and the possibilities of its turbocompounding!) in the same place...

The Wright TC had three PRT's, each of which was good for ~300 hp for a total of 800 to 900 hp. The PRT's were spaced 120 degrees around the rear of the engine and power was transmitted through a fluid coupling and then some sort of 90 degree gearing to the crankshaft.

I remember the cutaway I saw having the three PRTs at an angle to the rear of the engine (with the 'headers' appropriately flowed for best gasdynamics).  I was not looking carefully enough to see where the necessary fluid clutch(es) were located, and this relatively unhelpful view of the arrangement (too much is cut away, but not quite enough revealed) does not show me whether the clutches are individual on the cans, or between the (probably spiral-bevel?) gear and crankshaft.

For those of you who are engine-porn aficionados, here is something of interest: the magic starts around 3:56.  The key here is to listen for the turbine lag as the power comes on and off...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVmMd2BnbJ4

 

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVmMd2BnbJ4

 

 

Overmod:  Found the engine starting sequence very reminding.  Have no experience of the 3350s.  For first start of R2800 was 5 complete rotations first ( 15 blades ) and for 4360s again 5 rotations ( 20 ) blades.  Then ignition boost, prime, throttle, mixture.  You always knew who was a new Captain or first officer on the Convairs or engineers on the Connies by the backfires you heard when starting those engines!  It was a co-ordination exercise that just had to be learned.  I was lucky.  Had more than one Captain who would never start an engine but just count the blades.

You have no idea how busy the flight engineer on a Connie was during starts.  In fact an engineer was considered not baptized until his first time sliding off the wing of a Connie while dip sticking the fuel tanks.  Happened a lot during winter times.  There were some ground persons who would follow you while you dip sticked.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, January 28, 2021 2:56 PM

Bringing this thread back for a bit.

Remember the B-17 crash in Windsor Locks CT back in 2019?  I found a video giving the "whys and wherefores" of the event.  It's a little  bit dry, runs about 20 minutes or so, but does a good job explaining what went wrong and why.

"The holes in the Swiss cheese all lined up."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3p-hGR3ZyY  

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, January 28, 2021 4:34 PM

Flintlock76
Bringing this thread back for a bit.

Remember the B-17 crash in Windsor Locks CT back in 2019?  I found a video giving the "whys and wherefores" of the event.  It's a little  bit dry, runs about 20 minutes or so, but does a good job explaining what went wrong and why.

"The holes in the Swiss cheese all lined up."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3p-hGR3ZyY  

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Saturday, February 6, 2021 6:08 AM

The code name for Hitler's train was, believe it or not, Amerika !

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 6, 2021 12:05 PM

BEAUSABRE

The code name for Hitler's train was, believe it or not, Amerika !

 

Hermann Goering had a train of his own, called "Asien," or "Asia."

Have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMc3Kw9aNEs  

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, February 6, 2021 1:33 PM

Hermann sure liked to live large, didn't he? I've seen the Blue Goose at a show in Michigan. It's unrestored and painted a blue metallic with one-inch thick windows, one of which has a bullet mark. Likely someone from the 101st Airborne who captured the car and wanted to see just how bullet proof it was. There are stencils from the 101st on the bumpers too. Also, the car at 6:06 (and later on) is a 1937 Buick convertible sedan. 

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, February 6, 2021 1:43 PM

Here's a good one with Mustangs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmShtLOmwrA 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 6, 2021 9:43 PM

54light15

Hermann sure liked to live large, didn't he? I've seen the Blue Goose at a show in Michigan. It's unrestored and painted a blue metallic with one-inch thick windows, one of which has a bullet mark. Likely someone from the 101st Airborne who captured the car and wanted to see just how bullet proof it was. There are stencils from the 101st on the bumpers too. Also, the car at 6:06 (and later on) is a 1937 Buick convertible sedan. 

 

Dr. Felton's got a video on "The Blue Goose" as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAf1fYawXNo  

Interesting newsreel featuring those RAF Mustangs!  I wonder if they still had the Allison engines or had been upgraded to the Rolls Royce Merlin by that time?

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, February 6, 2021 11:13 PM

Those would have been Allison powered- notice the air intake above the prop-the later Merlin powered versions didn't have that. 

You may be interested in a website called "Bring a Trailer" which is an auction site for vintage and newer cars. They had a survey a year or two ago that asked people what was the best V-12 ever made. The consensus was, the Packard-built Merlin. I totally agree with that. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 7, 2021 9:31 AM

54light15
They had a survey a year or two ago that asked people what was the best V-12 ever made. The consensus was, the Packard-built Merlin.

Damn right.  Nothing succeeds like success, right?  

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 7, 2021 7:38 PM

Flintlock76
Damn right.

And damn right that it was the Packard, and not the Rolls-Royce, version of the engine that was cited.  There are reasons...

Although I confess it would have been interesting to see how the Allison engine might have fared if it had been properly supercharged for actual use in the aircraft it was intended for...

I do think the 12-567/645 is up there too, and perhaps overall the 12-710 and its GEVO counterpart.  Just in the 'attacked' and not 'attacking' column...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 7, 2021 9:13 PM

Overmod
Although I confess it would have been interesting to see how the Allison engine might have fared if it had been properly supercharged for actual use in the aircraft it was intended for...

Oh they tried, from what I've read they really tried, but it just didn't work out.

No matter, for certain applications the Allison worked out just fine, for example the P-38's and P-39's used in the Pacific where high-altitude performance wasn't a must, or the P-39's shipped to the Soviet Union as Lend-Lease aid. The Russians made very good use of those Allison engined P-39's as low-level ground attack aircraft.  Russian pilots liked those P-39's, a lot!

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, February 7, 2021 9:21 PM

Overmod

 

 
 

 

And damn right that it was the Packard, and not the Rolls-Royce, version of the engine that was cited.  There are reasons...

 

 

 

What are those reasons? Weren't they building off the same specs and blueprints?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, February 7, 2021 9:27 PM

Murphy Siding
 
Overmod 

And damn right that it was the Packard, and not the Rolls-Royce, version of the engine that was cited.  There are reasons... 

What are those reasons? Weren't they building off the same specs and blueprints?

I think one set of blue prints was SAE and another was British Standard.

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Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, February 7, 2021 10:29 PM

From what I've learned, the Packard people used the RR plans and made improvements wherever they could both for performance and production. They had the capacity to build them quickly and reliably, better than Rolls-Royce could do. Remember that Packard was a mass production plant and Rolls built every car pretty much to order and they were not set up to mass produce like the American automobile companies could do.  

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, February 7, 2021 11:42 PM

Flintlock76

Overmod

Although I confess it would have been interesting to see how the Allison engine might have fared if it had been properly supercharged for actual use in the aircraft it was intended for...

Oh they tried, from what I've read they really tried, but it just didn't work out.

One reason is that the Allisons were more conservatively rated in that USAAF regulations required that the engine produce rated power for a longer period of time than the RAF. The book I have on Allison engines also stated that Allison was behind RR is dealing with backfires - not preventing them but limiting damage caused by the backfires.

Note that the P-38 DID have lots of high altitude power, but it was the turbocharged version of the Allison engine. A P-51 with a turbocharged Allison would have had 1/3rd more range/combat radius than the Merlin equipped P-51. The ultimate Allison would have been the turbo-compound with an sfc even lower than the Wright turbo-compound used on the DC-7s and later Connies. Take-off power would have been close to 3,000HP.

The Allison had fewer parts, something like 7,000 versus 12,000 for the Merlin and also had substantially fewer unique parts.

BALT:

The parts in the Packard built Merlins were required tobe interchangeable with the parts for the RR built Merlins, so the Packard built Merlins did not use SAE hardware.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, February 8, 2021 9:47 AM

As I recall,  the turbocharger on the P38 took up a lot of space on top of each nacelle/tail fork.  .  It would have needed a large bulge on a P51, which was a much smaller plane.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, February 8, 2021 9:54 AM

YouTube's "Greg's Airplanes' has exhaustive discussions on many WW II fighters on both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzQuq2FHdeE

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:09 AM

charlie hebdo

As I recall,  the turbocharger on the P38 took up a lot of space on top of each nacelle/tail fork.  .  It would have needed a large bulge on a P51, which was a much smaller plane.

I'm pretty sure that the nacelles on a P-38 were no wider than the fuselage on the P-51 as they were a snug fit on the V-1710. OTOH, I don't think there was any room between the back of the engine and cockpit, so a turbocharger installation would probably been behind the pilot. There was some work done to fit turbochargers on P-63's which was made a bit easier with engine behind the pilot (as in the P-39), but still required lengthening the fuselage.

A few engine tidbits:

The lateral outline of the Merlin engine was determined by pushing a seated draftsman up against a wall and drawing the outline of said draftsman asthe engine didn't have to be any smaller than the pilot.

The supercharger on large non-fuel injected aircraft engines was intended to be a homogenizer as well as a compressor. Without it, the fuel to air ratio could vary substantially between cylinders with all sorts of adverse effects.

The most sought after Merlins for air racing are the "transport" Merlins produced after the end of the war. These were designed for the Lancastrian airliners and the modifications were based on experience with war time Merlins.

The P-82 Twin Mustangs used Allison engines as the USAAF was tired of spending $6,000 in royalties for each Packard built Merlin out of the $20,000 paid for each Merlin towards the end of the war.

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Posted by ORNHOO on Monday, March 4, 2024 10:00 PM

Leo_Ames

 

I wonder what made for the best train strafer in the European theater? I imagine it's a race between the USAAF P-47 and the RAF's Hawker Typhoon and Tempest.

 

Leo_Ames

;)

At last, we have an answer (at least in simulation): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGFSo6OhMcE

 

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 5, 2024 7:09 PM

Well, since this Warbird thread has come roaring back to life how's about a little celebratory music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVVoH9-QH0

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 5, 2024 8:24 PM

Flintlock76
Well, since this Warbird thread has come roaring back to life how's about a little celebratory music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVVoH9-QH0

Ironic that Werner Klemper of Hogan's Heros fame as Col. Klink was cast as a German General in this opening scene.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 6, 2024 10:59 AM

BaltACD
Ironic that Werner Klemper of Hogan's Heros fame as Col. Klink was cast as a German General in this opening scene.

Well, actually no.  Werner Klemperer wasn't in "Battle of Britain."  Those are all German actors although one has a resemblence to Werner.  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, March 6, 2024 11:40 AM

Flintlock76

Well, since this Warbird thread has come roaring back to life how's about a little celebratory music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVVoH9-QH0

 

Great opening titles sequence. The "Aces High" march, designed to resemble a traditional German march, was actually written by British film composer Ron Goodwin.   

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, March 6, 2024 3:08 PM

You want warbirds? You want music? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVejLjXVdw 

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