Yep, Remember my grandmothers house in central Indiana, she had a wood/corncob stove in the kitchen, a coal burner heating unit in the parlor, no running water, just a pump outside and a privy. Under the bed was a porcelin commode for use at night. She also had a party line with an oak box crank phone on the wall. The contrast to today is mind blowing. Yesterday, my daughter needed to get into my house while I an away up on Washington Island and the external key pad would not open the garage door. I have a new opener which is connected to the web so she called me and I used the app on my cell phone to open the garage door from 327 miles away.
Euclid What is the practical maximum length of trains using distributed power? If there is a maximum practical length, what causes the length limit, and what happens if the limit is exceeded?
What is the practical maximum length of trains using distributed power? If there is a maximum practical length, what causes the length limit, and what happens if the limit is exceeded?
What's going to limit length is how far can communication be maintained between the head end and the DP consists.
For us, 10000' is allowed between the lead engine and remote consist east of the Rocky Mountains, 8500' west of the dividing line. System limit for length is 18000', no more than 6000' between DP consists and there must be a DP on the rear. If no DP on the rear, than length is limited to 15000'. Conventional trains are limited to 10000'.
There can also be subdivision length restrictions. Usually because of siding lengths.
If a train shows up and the length, either system or subdivision limit is exceeded, they can either make you correct the problem if possible. For example, repositioning a DP consist. More likely they'll have someone, usually the corridor manager, give you time and initials to take it as is. It's amazing what can be done with time and initials.
Jeff
PS. I forgot about party lines. We had one, too. You know you're old when you go into an antique store and remember having and using many of the items for sale.
EuclidWhat is the practical maximum length of trains using distributed power? If there is a maximum practical length, what causes the length limit, and what happens if the limit is exceeded?
The carriers are still searching for the maximum, and most likely will continue to.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zardoz Disclaimer: I retired before DP, thus certain aspects of train handling relating to DP are unfamiliar to me. However, I've run trains with 6BL and 24RL automatic brake valves (and trains with only AB brakes and friction bearings), using the feed valve to effect a small enough reduction as to not trigger a kicker, and then using straight air to trigger a quick release.
Disclaimer: I retired before DP, thus certain aspects of train handling relating to DP are unfamiliar to me. However, I've run trains with 6BL and 24RL automatic brake valves (and trains with only AB brakes and friction bearings), using the feed valve to effect a small enough reduction as to not trigger a kicker, and then using straight air to trigger a quick release.
That's one of my points. The technology used in rail operations has changed. So the operations themselves will also change to use the new tech most efficiently.
And, it's going to take a while to figure out how to do this. And, it will largely be done by trial and error.
blue streak 1 Question for our metal experts. Does the additional flexing of rail, switches, etc more often in a short time reduce the life of rails and such ? Does a monster train of mostly 286k cars of almost a 1000 axels set up fatigue faster than say 2 trains of 500 axels passing over 10 + minutes apart ?.
Question for our metal experts. Does the additional flexing of rail, switches, etc more often in a short time reduce the life of rails and such ? Does a monster train of mostly 286k cars of almost a 1000 axels set up fatigue faster than say 2 trains of 500 axels passing over 10 + minutes apart ?.
That’s an interesting question. Personally, I have no clue.
BaltACD Tune in to the ME TV Network and you can see a number of the B&W only shows - Perry Mason, Gunsmoke - the early years, Rifleman, Wagon Train - the Ward Bond years - and a whole bunch more on Saturday - Have Gun Will Travel and others. I first remember TV when we lived in Auburn, IN. The nearest station was in Kalamazoo, MI - over 100 air miles distant, my father had to erect a antenna 20 feet above the roof of our house. Out best picture had the appearance of light snow flurries - other times the picture was a raging blizzard.
Tune in to the ME TV Network and you can see a number of the B&W only shows - Perry Mason, Gunsmoke - the early years, Rifleman, Wagon Train - the Ward Bond years - and a whole bunch more on Saturday - Have Gun Will Travel and others.
I first remember TV when we lived in Auburn, IN. The nearest station was in Kalamazoo, MI - over 100 air miles distant, my father had to erect a antenna 20 feet above the roof of our house. Out best picture had the appearance of light snow flurries - other times the picture was a raging blizzard.
BaltACD SALfan jeffhergert: I'm old enough, and lived in a place, to remember 2 commercial networks and the public TV channel. Savannah, GA (the nearest city large enough for TV stations to where I grew up) didn't even have an ABC affiliate until about 1968 or 1969. My mother's aunt and uncle in SW GA still had a party line where every subscriber had a different ring, and every phone on the party line rang when anyone got a call. I also remember when there was no color TV; the first year or two of color availability, some programs were in color and some weren't. Now I feel really old. Tune in to the ME TV Network and you can see a number of the B&W only shows - Perry Mason, Gunsmoke - the early years, Rifleman, Wagon Train - the Ward Bond years - and a whole bunch more on Saturday - Have Gun Will Travel and others. I first remember TV when we lived in Auburn, IN. The nearest station was in Kalamazoo, MI - over 100 air miles distant, my father had to erect a antenna 20 feet above the roof of our house. Out best picture had the appearance of light snow flurries - other times the picture was a raging blizzard.
SALfan jeffhergert: I'm old enough, and lived in a place, to remember 2 commercial networks and the public TV channel. Savannah, GA (the nearest city large enough for TV stations to where I grew up) didn't even have an ABC affiliate until about 1968 or 1969. My mother's aunt and uncle in SW GA still had a party line where every subscriber had a different ring, and every phone on the party line rang when anyone got a call. I also remember when there was no color TV; the first year or two of color availability, some programs were in color and some weren't. Now I feel really old.
My wife and I watch Perry Mason on ME TV almost every night.
Growing up out at the farm the TV antenna wasn't as tall as yours, but was mounted on a metal pipe that could rotate, about two feet out from the edge of the front porch floor. Sometimes, usually after one of us boys had been jumping off the porch and swinging on the pipe, the antenna required adjustment. My father would cuss and send the closest boy out to stand at the end of the porch and twist the pole to improve the aim, in response to directions yelled thru an open window. Good times, long gone.
greyhoundsLonger trains are generally more efficient. Greater length makes for a declining average cost.
Having said all that, I have run trains of 50 car lengths and 3K tons with 2 SD40-2 units, and I have run 13K' long mixed manifests of 12K tons with no dynamics. The difference in stopping distances is huge, mostly due to the very delicate way a monster train has to be handled. With 50 cars one could easily go right to a 10-15psi reduction at 30mph while only in the 4th notch, or get the dynamics (if equipped) loading so much quicker; with the monster, keeping the slack stretched sufficiently to prevent run-ins requires lots of power, and lots of planning: the braking has to commence so much further back, in order to give the entire train's brakes time to set. One could likely bring the 50-car train from 30mph to 0 and back to 30mph in about 5-10 minutes and within a mile or two; the monster would likely take at least 30-45 minutes (each time) to do the same and take many miles to accomplish. Multply that by a number of meets, slow orders, and work enroute, and your efficiencies quickly disappear. And those figures do not include stops for sticky brakes, the inevitable knuckle/drawbar, signal problems, weather conditions, DP issues, etc. Plus, in cold weather there is the problem of trainline charging.
Sure, on a nice summer day, if one could open the throttle at point A, then just roll along until point B, then yes, a 20K ton 20K' long mosnter is much more efficient (heck, you might not even need a second crew member); but how often does that happen? Like, almost never.
Electroliner 1935 EHH what have you given us.
EHH what have you given us.
He's given some people a great gift. That gift would be someone and something to despise and hate. Such a gift is very fulfilling for some people.
Again, I judge the tenets of PSR to be wise and good. But, there are going to be some bumps in the road regarding its implementation. Heck Fire, look at the Boeing 737 MAX.
Longer trains are generally more efficient. Greater length makes for a declining average cost. Why do you think railroads progressed from the 4-4-0's to 2-10-4's, the Big Boys, and the Alleghenies? Eliminating classification en route is also great for efficiency. And if the railroads don't become more efficient, they're dead.
Yes, a carload of plastic pellets can get misrouted. It happens. I've had FedEx misroute an overnight shipment. Perfection just doesn't exist.
Ah yes ! All those old tv shows and they were analog ! Cannot believe how much better the HD programs are including many of the old analog ones. Of course a lot of the old ones especially on ME tv are 4:3 ratio instead of 16:9
Yes, I like MeTV. I find those shows much more entertaining. That, and Masterpiece mysteries.
SALfanjeffhergert: I'm old enough, and lived in a place, to remember 2 commercial networks and the public TV channel. Savannah, GA (the nearest city large enough for TV stations to where I grew up) didn't even have an ABC affiliate until about 1968 or 1969. My mother's aunt and uncle in SW GA still had a party line where every subscriber had a different ring, and every phone on the party line rang when anyone got a call. I also remember when there was no color TV; the first year or two of color availability, some programs were in color and some weren't. Now I feel really old.
Lithonia Operator jeffhergert Lithonia Operator jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct? I always enjoy reading your posts. Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer. I work in the family business, for Uncle Pete. (Actually, I'm the first in my family to work for a railroad. And I don't really have an Uncle Pete.) Jeff Thanks for responding, Jeff. Cotton Belt MP 104, thanks for your PM. I could not respond because I am traveling, and apparently I cannot send a PM from a cell phone.
jeffhergert Lithonia Operator jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct? I always enjoy reading your posts. Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer. I work in the family business, for Uncle Pete. (Actually, I'm the first in my family to work for a railroad. And I don't really have an Uncle Pete.) Jeff
Lithonia Operator jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct? I always enjoy reading your posts.
jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct?
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer. I work in the family business, for Uncle Pete.
(Actually, I'm the first in my family to work for a railroad. And I don't really have an Uncle Pete.)
Thanks for responding, Jeff.
Cotton Belt MP 104, thanks for your PM. I could not respond because I am traveling, and apparently I cannot send a PM from a cell phone.
Try using the "desktop site" option in your browser. I have to do that when I'm on my phone.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zardoz jeffhergert I've got a box of Cracker Jacks on the shelf in the kitchen. They still put a "prize" in the package, but of late it's usually some sticker. I thought about using CJ instead of cereal. Either one is probably foriegn to a lot of the young forum membership. How about the mega-sugary bubble gum that used to be in packages of baseball cards. There used to be a small drug store at my train-watching spot in Milwaukee, and I'd stock up on baseball cards each time I visited (I mention this in order to keep the forum on-track (pun intended)). jeffhergert ....who remembers dial telephones and getting up to change the TV channel, which only had 3 and later 4 channels with at least one usually having something worth watching. And if you were lucky your parents had a color tv, and even luckier if the program you wanted to see was in color. No only that, but the commercials would blast so loud, and it was way too much of a hassle to get up for every ad to adjust the volume, up, then down, then up, then down..... Ah, the "good" old days.
jeffhergert I've got a box of Cracker Jacks on the shelf in the kitchen. They still put a "prize" in the package, but of late it's usually some sticker. I thought about using CJ instead of cereal. Either one is probably foriegn to a lot of the young forum membership.
How about the mega-sugary bubble gum that used to be in packages of baseball cards. There used to be a small drug store at my train-watching spot in Milwaukee, and I'd stock up on baseball cards each time I visited (I mention this in order to keep the forum on-track (pun intended)).
jeffhergert ....who remembers dial telephones and getting up to change the TV channel, which only had 3 and later 4 channels with at least one usually having something worth watching.
And if you were lucky your parents had a color tv, and even luckier if the program you wanted to see was in color. No only that, but the commercials would blast so loud, and it was way too much of a hassle to get up for every ad to adjust the volume, up, then down, then up, then down.....
Ah, the "good" old days.
jeffhergert: I'm old enough, and lived in a place, to remember 2 commercial networks and the public TV channel. Savannah, GA (the nearest city large enough for TV stations to where I grew up) didn't even have an ABC affiliate until about 1968 or 1969. My mother's aunt and uncle in SW GA still had a party line where every subscriber had a different ring, and every phone on the party line rang when anyone got a call. I also remember when there was no color TV; the first year or two of color availability, some programs were in color and some weren't. Now I feel really old.
jeffhergertI've got a box of Cracker Jacks on the shelf in the kitchen. They still put a "prize" in the package, but of late it's usually some sticker. I thought about using CJ instead of cereal. Either one is probably foriegn to a lot of the young forum membership.
jeffhergert....who remembers dial telephones and getting up to change the TV channel, which only had 3 and later 4 channels with at least one usually having something worth watching.
tree68 jeffhergert (For those who remember when they used to put "prizes" inside the boxes of cereal.) Can't forget Cracker Jacks... There are few new ideas - they just come up every now and then with a new name. Big trains, pre-blocking, you name it, it's been done before.
jeffhergert (For those who remember when they used to put "prizes" inside the boxes of cereal.)
Can't forget Cracker Jacks...
There are few new ideas - they just come up every now and then with a new name. Big trains, pre-blocking, you name it, it's been done before.
I've got a box of Cracker Jacks on the shelf in the kitchen. They still put a "prize" in the package, but of late it's usually some sticker. I thought about using CJ instead of cereal. Either one is probably foriegn to a lot of the young forum membership.
Jeff, who remembers dial telephones and getting up to change the TV channel, which only had 3 and later 4 channels with at least one usually having something worth watching.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
SD70Dude Shadow the Cats owner SD70Dude my customers that have to deal with your employeers US based side of it call them the Canadian NOPE when it comes to service. Half our loads to Mississippi are loads that are on IC trains in hopper cars that the IC can not deliver even a week late and the plant has to have product to run and we have to bail them out yet again. We have 5 trucks heading that way now for Monday morning yet again to keep the bumper plant for an auto assembly plant running because IC and CN sent the hopper car full of their plastic to Winnipeg instead of Jackson MS. Then CN wants them to pay for the freight charges for the screw up. I think we are going to get that contract full time pretty soon. Yeah, that sounds about right. Sigh. At least your business is doing well. I like to use this TSB report as an example of how well CN's car-tracking system works. Unfortunately not much has changed since this happened. http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2009/r09w0016/r09w0016.html
Shadow the Cats owner SD70Dude my customers that have to deal with your employeers US based side of it call them the Canadian NOPE when it comes to service. Half our loads to Mississippi are loads that are on IC trains in hopper cars that the IC can not deliver even a week late and the plant has to have product to run and we have to bail them out yet again. We have 5 trucks heading that way now for Monday morning yet again to keep the bumper plant for an auto assembly plant running because IC and CN sent the hopper car full of their plastic to Winnipeg instead of Jackson MS. Then CN wants them to pay for the freight charges for the screw up. I think we are going to get that contract full time pretty soon.
SD70Dude my customers that have to deal with your employeers US based side of it call them the Canadian NOPE when it comes to service. Half our loads to Mississippi are loads that are on IC trains in hopper cars that the IC can not deliver even a week late and the plant has to have product to run and we have to bail them out yet again. We have 5 trucks heading that way now for Monday morning yet again to keep the bumper plant for an auto assembly plant running because IC and CN sent the hopper car full of their plastic to Winnipeg instead of Jackson MS. Then CN wants them to pay for the freight charges for the screw up. I think we are going to get that contract full time pretty soon.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Sigh. At least your business is doing well.
I like to use this TSB report as an example of how well CN's car-tracking system works. Unfortunately not much has changed since this happened.
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2009/r09w0016/r09w0016.html
Car issues are not only a CN issue.
Electroliner 1935 Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...Now I am scared. 15000 ft long trains with these tank cars in them just waiting to be pulled apart while carrying toxic loads. I can see the lawyers salivating over the prospects of the negligence claims against the RR's, shippers and the car owners. EHH what have you given us.
Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...Now I am scared. 15000 ft long trains with these tank cars in them just waiting to be pulled apart while carrying toxic loads. I can see the lawyers salivating over the prospects of the negligence claims against the RR's, shippers and the car owners. EHH what have you given us.
We had monster sized trains before EHH. Eventually some other flavor of the day method will come along, and we'll probably still have some monster sized trains running. While I don't like the monster sized trains either, depends on the train make-up - some aren't too bad to handle, I think people are still better off seeing that hazmat on the rail instead of going through town on the highway.
While most truck drivers are good and compentent, like everything else the bad ones put the paint on the brush that covers all of them, they have to drive among the general public. Some of whom seem to have gotten their driver's license at the bottom of a cereal box. (For those who remember when they used to put "prizes" inside the boxes of cereal.)
Just wait until they put PSR in the Cloud!!
I have no clue how their resins are routed to Jackson from their main supplier. We have been delivering a couple of custom blends they wanted for a while. So when they called us up and said they needed 110 tons of plastic resins that we had in stock that they normally get from a different company we said yes we can help you out. The problem is IC can not even get the product to this plant when they have it for them to deliver.
To me, the term PSR implies the outlook of ”this is how we’ve always done it”. Meet our schedule. It’s about us. Hardened arteries. If they were truly trying to serve their customer, they would use the term, JIT. Just In Time thinking. What the customer needs, when he/she needs it.
I find it kind of amusing that the term Precision Scheduled Railroading has caught on to the point that virtually everyone in the railroad (and related) busines uses it.
To me, it sounds very hype-ish, like a cheap sales slogan. Like “new and improved.” Some folks here say that it’s not so precision, not so scheduled, but the term endures.
I saw that one railroad said they are implementing a “modified version of PSR.” Seems like they should come up with their own term. Maybe an acronym like SORT: Service Oriented Railroad Technology. That wouldn’t be any more lame than Precision Scheduled Railroading.
Electroliner 1935EHH what have you given us.
Shadow:Just curious how that Streator, Il to Jackson, Ms is routed...is that NS to Kankakee to CN?That should be a smooth move.
ed
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