Railfans griping about paint

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwinter

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who most of the time are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather have that nickel than give it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, then you do about how pretty it is...

LC

So maybe railroads should just forget about colorful designs and corporate image!?!?

Not necessarily, but everyone needs to put the question of paint in its proper perspective.

LC

[espeefoamer]

Better a dirty grimy ALCo than a sqeeky clean Dash 9.[}:)]

[Anonymous]

To the Railroads Money is more important than Service!

[Anonymous]

For the record,
i don't care if a motive power consist matches. And I don't think that road grime is bad, or sends a bad image. But I've sen some junkers in my time. I also feel that to eshew any semblance of presentation is not good for our industry. I think NS does a good job as well as BNSF and UP. They all put forth a positive image.
I've worked in the railroad industry for 30 years by the way and don't consider myself a fan per se. I do have a feeling of how the outside world looks at us.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

This is quite the interesting topic to read! Just wanted to say that there's one railroad that could give the Lehigh Valley a run for it's money in variety of paint schemes: the Rock Island. With the Rock, you got several shades of maroon, with varying pinstripe combos, maroon and yellow, red and yellow, the classic red and black with white wings on freight units, the "rocket" paint colors on the passenger units, and various simplified liveries that followed, and the Ingram blue and white.

One more thing, I agree that relatively clean locomotives present an image that reflects corporate pride. I say relatively clean, as it's tough to keep the locomotives clean all the time when they're constantly exposed to the elements.

[jwinter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who most of the time are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather have that nickel than give it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, then you do about how pretty it is...

LC

So maybe railroads should just forget about colorful designs and corporate image!?!?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather keep that nickel than leave it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, than you do about how pretty it is...

LC

[jwinter]

On one hand a loco with some dirt on it can show the railroad is a working railroad. But too much dirt, then why bother putting flags and other bright designs on it if it isn't kep somewhat clean.

I always thought the old BN cascade green design looked like a straight forward working railroad design. Why the old Sante Fe warbonnet had the race car look. To put them next to each other, they both send a different message. But a down right filthy loco sends only one message.

John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

[BNSFGP38]

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

[Mookie]

This seems a good place to insert that there was a SP engine - 9328 - in SP colors and logo wandering through Lincoln during Xmas/New Years. It wasn't clean, but it was definitely a nice change from the clean orange we see all the time. There was also a NS in dusty black - but I still think black is most flattering - especially when accessorized with white!

Mook

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Penn Central Black

My opinion on this is most closely aligned with that of Artmark.
HMM:
In the days when trains like the NORTH COAST LIMITED and the PANAMA LIMITED were classily painted and their crews were smartly dressed in in impecable uniforms, we all as railroad men were treated with respect and high esteem in our communities.
Nowadays, locomotive consists at the head ends of trains roll throgh towns looking like rolling junkyards, and Conductors of passenger trains often dress in incomplete and sloppy uniforms, displaying less espirit de corps than your local gas station cashier.
It's no wonder that in the 21st century, railroaders are looked upon as if we're dog crap in the community!
More JOHN PHILLIP SOUSA
Less MICHEAL JACKSON !
"HERE'S TO YESTERDAY, ARCHIE!"
(George Jefferson toasting with Archie Bunker at a wedding reception)

Penn Central Black, et. al.

Thanks for your note. You hit the nail on the head, especially when it comes to uniforms.
During the '70s when I was in train service on the Milwaukee Road, I discovered Grand Uniform Company in GCT, New York. They made the PC, and SIRT uniforms among others. They were the best in the world. Hy Rotenstein, the proprietor, tailored my uniforms better than any leading clothing store could. I got him a contract with us at the Milwaukee and a number of us took to dressing up in our uniforms. There were other trainmen that issued the excuse,"What's the big deal, it's only work clothes." But we knew better. It cost a little more in dollars and maintenance time but we enjoyed the respect our passengers gave us. Those with the least maintnance and with poor appearance tended to have the most problems with passengers. We were able to wear our Milwaukee uniforms on Amtrak jobs. I had a passenger say to us once that he'd been all over the country on Amtrak and that "We looked like w came out of a movie. We looked real." It's still a shame the way some Amtrak trainmen look. And whaasup with the "not wearing the cap" deal?

People may not be able to verbalize their feelings on things like appearance but it does leave an impression, good or bad. Go to a job interview in "Just work clothes," and see what doesn't happen.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Penn Central Black

My opinion on this is most closely aligned with that of Artmark.
HMM:
In the days when trains like the NORTH COAST LIMITED and the PANAMA LIMITED were classily painted and their crews were smartly dressed in in impecable uniforms, we all as railroad men were treated with respect and high esteem in our communities.
Nowadays, locomotive consists at the head ends of trains roll throgh towns looking like rolling junkyards, and Conductors of passenger trains often dress in incomplete and sloppy uniforms, displaying less espirit de corps than your local gas station cashier.
It's no wonder that in the 21st century, railroaders are looked upon as if we're dog crap in the community!
More JOHN PHILLIP SOUSA
Less MICHEAL JACKSON !
"HERE'S TO YESTERDAY, ARCHIE!"
(George Jefferson toasting with Archie Bunker at a wedding reception)

Nothing wrong with basic black. It is very "FRA Friendly"...lol...

LC

[Anonymous]

My opinion on this is most closely aligned with that of Artmark.
HMM:
In the days when trains like the NORTH COAST LIMITED and the PANAMA LIMITED were classily painted and their crews were smartly dressed in in impecable uniforms, we all as railroad men were treated with respect and high esteem in our communities.
Nowadays, locomotive consists at the head ends of trains roll throgh towns looking like rolling junkyards, and Conductors of passenger trains often dress in incomplete and sloppy uniforms, displaying less espirit de corps than your local gas station cashier.
It's no wonder that in the 21st century, railroaders are looked upon as if we're dog crap in the community!
More JOHN PHILLIP SOUSA
Less MICHEAL JACKSON !
"HERE'S TO YESTERDAY, ARCHIE!"
(George Jefferson toasting with Archie Bunker at a wedding reception)

[Anonymous]

Ya know, guys, this has been a fun thread to read through. I have to admit, though, that i've been keeping my hands away from the keyboard until now. I mean, what's an old Espee guy going to say? Before ol' Uncle Pete came along and bought us out, we arguably had the worst looking fleet on the rails. Still got a lot of 'em, in fact. I will, however, give the U.P. credit for one thing: a lot of units still look bad, but they're a lot better mechanically than they used to be. Heck, I'm happy just to have decent seats in the cab, but now things actually work! You know, little things like heaters, windshield wipers, even most of the air conditioners when you're lucky enough to have 'em. Of course, we're talking about former S.P. units here. On the flip side of the coin are the U.P.'s own. You know, the ones that they bought new, that nobody else had a chance to screw up. Whatever you may think of the Union Pacific, I'm here to tell you that they run a better than average fleet. I'm sure there are others out there who won't agree, but for me, when you talk about paint jobs, I'm getting pretty fond of U.P. yellow. Even when it's dirty. J.D. Nomad

[BNSFGP38]

Why do railfans gripe about paint?
Because they are not railroad owners/bean counters.

And the winner in the EMD/GE debate is clearly Alco. [:D][:D][8D]

I have run GP 38's and 10's, a B-23 and a S-6.
The S-6 ran circles around anything doing switching, its almost like it was glued to the rail. And I can put on a alot of smoke shows. [;)] See my photos below.

The geeps were my favortie over the road locomotive though.

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200410091101573142.jpg&byrail%3A1%3AFore_River_Transportation

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200410091049312638.jpg&byrail%3A2%3AFore_River_Transportation

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Oh ya one more thing on your topic,Welcome to the real World!

Now that sounds like an oxymoron if ever I heard one!

Railfans certainly don't exist in the same real world as working railroads in any event...lol...

LC

[ericsp]

I only complain about paint when a SP, SSW, or DRGW locomotive has yellow put on it. I actually like a consist with locomotives in several paint schemes, unless all are SP, SSW, or DRGW.

As for investors more likely to invest in a railroad with clean locomotives, I doubt there are very many.

[Anonymous]

Oh ya one more thing on your topic,Welcome to the real World!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

OK For you guys that drive locomotives-How are ya gonna pick up hot babes if your ride is real grungy lookin???

Jay

LOL, not a problem. I've had many young thangs flash me in some pretty grungy locos hauling coal next to a lake or at a crossing...

LC

I was gona say the same thing......How about that good lookin' Woman just sittn' by you side while you run your Train[:D],Just checkn'.

[dharmon]

I think this it a bit deeper than paint so to speak......I personally see several distinct groups on the forums, but I'm sure that to some (particularly the railroaders) there are only two - railroader (of some sort) and railfan (or foamer / armchair railroader / etc... but not a railroader). These groups tend to view things from differing perspective, in part based on that the railroaders have a common experience (just as military, law enforcement, aviation, etc have).....and everyone else just has an interest in trains for some reason.

So I put it in this perspective. If one equates the railfan community to NASCAR fans.. a bunch of folks, who like x driver and x team and x make of car, because of this reason and that reason, then a railfan talking about paint is no more than a NASCAR fan talking about paint.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

Function before form people.
Adrianspeeder

"Your Honor, We plead guilty, with an excuse."

And that's just what that is.
Mitch

[Modelcar]

...Clean promotes pride.....In most anything.

[adrianspeeder]

Function before form people. (Except the powerstroke, gotta keep that lookin good :) ) Well, the LV had the mentality on paint to use what ever was around. Including brown and yellow. (On a geep9 and RS3) ewww, but it worked.

Adrianspeeder

[mudchicken]

At least two shortlines here in CO had their crews wiping down their horses at the end of the day with detergent & water in the summer, kerosene rags in the winter. It's a pride thing in their community and it helps take care of the equipment. (Colorado & Wyoming has done this since they started using diesels, their equipment is no-frills, but they are reliable and deliver when called on)...I take issue with the attitude of some crews that cannot be bothered to have the common decency to pick up after themselves and then bellyache about a dirty cab, etc. ( There are other crews that have worked for me on work train service that have earned my respect and I would be happy to help them out in any way possible.)

(my employer's company trucks are clean for similar reasons)

Randy Stahl's comments would be appreciated.

[eolafan]

Interesting thread so far. Please allow me to make a few personal observations and points:
1. Have you ever noticed that cars that run great are usually also clean. People who don't keep their cars clean usually (but not always) are the ones that let them go to pot mechanically. Same holds true for locomotives on railroads (i.e. SP had the dirtitest units and they tended to smoke the most as well due to poor maintenance).
2. Good point abaout UPS having the cleanest delivery trukcs in town and they are also likely the busiest.
3. It's called CORPORATE PRIDE folks. I drive a company car and try and keep it spotless most of the time...I also dress in clean clothes and shine my shoes from time to time.
4. Clean locomotives "reflect" (pardon the pun) well on the railroad which owns them, thus attracting more investors.
5. Strictly from a railfans point of view, I personally don't care if the three units on a train I see are exactly matched. As a matter of fact a little diversity is an interesting thing to see once in a while. All those trains on the BNSF line through my town of Aurora, IL with all matched Dash 9 units in H2 scheme gets a little boring after a time.

Well, I'll climb down off of my soap box now.
Eolafan

[Anonymous]

Let me respond to this as an artist, aesthetician, advertising man, and former locomotive engineer, and conductor. This is merely my take.
I'm not so sure it's a gripe folks have, more than a yearning for a company's identification, and a sense of orderliness.

As an engineman you don't care what the lashup looks like, you just want to get over the road in some semblence of safety and comfort. But we're talking about the people observing the railroad scene either from a knowledgable standpoint (railfans,) or just citizens who are not knowledgeable at all.

As railfans we tend to focus on a favorite carrier that we identify with. Perhaps their territory, perhaps the traffic they carry. In our minds, way back there somewhere the carrier's treatment of motive power lashups are a reflection on our thinking. I used to feel this way about the IC. I was proud our family had an association with them,I was proud that their suburban trains served our community so well, and that the IC's premier trains, The Panama, The City of New Orleans, and The City of Miami looked so smart and orderly in their stem to stern matched consists of engines and cars. One could admire them for realizing that their manner of dress was being observed by everyone. In the Green Diamond era of the IC, foreign road passenger cars in other than IC paint were not allowed on the premier trains. But evrey once and a while you could see them in other consists. I can recal the first run-through freights of the '60s. There was "NYQ." A run thorugh from the Burlington to the New York Central. The 4-unit consist was NYC units at each end, with Burlington ones in the middle. It was interesting, and a way to identify that particular job. That was interesting, and we got a kick out of it, but wouldn't want it as a norm.

The early Amtrak era was a riot. Everyone's cars on everyone else's trains. Who knew what that was, except for us?

I also feel that a part of the railroad delema as far as getting community co-operation with grade crossing eliminations, etc, is the community has no idea who the railroad is at all. For example, here in Knox, Indiana, along the NS (former Nickle Plate) main line one can observe trains with UP, BN, or CP power on the head end. There is no more depot in town. Who knows what railroad this is anymore? I asked my neighbor, and the main line is just a block away, what railroad that is. She replied, "I dunno. I thinks it's the
Union Pacific." So when NS says they'd like to eliminate some grade crossings in town, no one knows who "NS" is.
Leased motive power can be particularly disconcerting as they tend to either have huge stenciled letters and numbers over the previous owner's recognizable colors, or just a poorly thought out "private label" scheme. A leased engine doesn't carry the banner of the carrier, it just has a huge "HTML" or something stencilled over something else. There is the sense of a loss of order.

Look at Amtrak for a moment with the Ad-wrapped passenger power. Am I taking a wonderful passenger train when I see the train pull into the depot? No. I'm being exhorted to buy a huge SUV. And when there's road grime on that unit, not only does the carrier look awful, the advertiser looks bad as well.

I'm not suggesting that a "Motive Power Czar" be appointed to match units up in power lash-ups. Of course that's impractical. What I am saying is my notions on why railfans remark on the situation. In our realm of railroading, each day, identities and traditions seem to melt away for good. To older folks with long memories such as myself, this can be disturbing. We remember when railroads had their own, distinctive personalities.

In response to the satement "If a railroad's power is clean then they aren't busy enough," we would have to say that United Parcel Service's fleet is not busy enough. UPS has had a reputation for decades of "Having the cleanest ship." They understand what the public perception is. UPS is plenty busy, including their air fleet. Same could be said for Metra. they're always clean, inclusive of their motive power where the passengers don't ride.

At risk of sounding repetitious, there's no practical solution to matching units. This is just my opinion on why we remark on this.

Mitch

[Puckdropper]

The biggest concern I would have is that the equipment has sufficient reflectiveness so you can tell there's something going across a country crossing at 02:00. Other than that, snot green's ok with me...

[Anonymous]

I can care less on what color any piece of rr equip is painted. As long as it is safe to use and runs okay, that's good enough for me. Too much money is wasted on painting and color schemes are the most overated part of the rr scene

[Anonymous]

If the loco's are always clean and pristine then the RR isn't busy enough.