Railfans griping about paint

[Mookie]

This seems a good place to insert that there was a SP engine - 9328 - in SP colors and logo wandering through Lincoln during Xmas/New Years. It wasn't clean, but it was definitely a nice change from the clean orange we see all the time. There was also a NS in dusty black - but I still think black is most flattering - especially when accessorized with white!

Mook

[BNSFGP38]

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

[jwinter]

On one hand a loco with some dirt on it can show the railroad is a working railroad. But too much dirt, then why bother putting flags and other bright designs on it if it isn't kep somewhat clean.

I always thought the old BN cascade green design looked like a straight forward working railroad design. Why the old Sante Fe warbonnet had the race car look. To put them next to each other, they both send a different message. But a down right filthy loco sends only one message.

John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather keep that nickel than leave it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, than you do about how pretty it is...

LC

[jwinter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who most of the time are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather have that nickel than give it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, then you do about how pretty it is...

LC

So maybe railroads should just forget about colorful designs and corporate image!?!?

[Anonymous]

This is quite the interesting topic to read! Just wanted to say that there's one railroad that could give the Lehigh Valley a run for it's money in variety of paint schemes: the Rock Island. With the Rock, you got several shades of maroon, with varying pinstripe combos, maroon and yellow, red and yellow, the classic red and black with white wings on freight units, the "rocket" paint colors on the passenger units, and various simplified liveries that followed, and the Ingram blue and white.

One more thing, I agree that relatively clean locomotives present an image that reflects corporate pride. I say relatively clean, as it's tough to keep the locomotives clean all the time when they're constantly exposed to the elements.

[Anonymous]

For the record,
i don't care if a motive power consist matches. And I don't think that road grime is bad, or sends a bad image. But I've sen some junkers in my time. I also feel that to eshew any semblance of presentation is not good for our industry. I think NS does a good job as well as BNSF and UP. They all put forth a positive image.
I've worked in the railroad industry for 30 years by the way and don't consider myself a fan per se. I do have a feeling of how the outside world looks at us.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

To the Railroads Money is more important than Service!

[espeefoamer]

Better a dirty grimy ALCo than a sqeeky clean Dash 9.[}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwinter

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

I like the quote a railroad owner I know says about paint. "When in creation did a paint job make a locomotive faster or pull more cars". Rather true if you think about it.

Of course that's true. If you think no one is looking, you don't like yourself, or have no confidence in your product, or feel that you don't have to participate with the rest of the world. It's also what you think of your customers.
But it sure can pull!

Mitch

Or, if:

1. You care more about delivering the freight than what some yahoos trackside think about your artistic ability, or;

2. You have to make real world decisions and prioritize expenditures such that maintenance of the track, equipment, training and payroll, among the many other expenses of operating a railroad and paint is just barely on the radar screen below most of those other things, or;

3. You consider that your customers who most of the time are trying to chisel that last nickel out of your rate would rather have that nickel than give it to the railroad to handle the necessary expenses of providing good rail service, or;

4. Any or all of the above.

THEN, you worry more about the mechanical condition of the power and how much it can pull, then you do about how pretty it is...

LC

So maybe railroads should just forget about colorful designs and corporate image!?!?

Not necessarily, but everyone needs to put the question of paint in its proper perspective.

LC

[BNSFGP38]

Remember the golden rule of railroading...........if it dont make dollars, it dont make sense. [8D]

The owner of the short line I was referring too is cash poor, he has alot of recieveables, but he aint getting his share of pie from the dreaded ( another thread) Guilford rail. Out of all his engines, 2 have the " official" scheme. One is still in its old faded jeans blue conrail paint, the other is a UP with a black sqaure covering the UP and the other is a orange switcher.

Yeah it would be "cool" to have a matched fleet. But he needs to buy others things, like fuel and new ties. Belive me, he is a railfan first and has a tremendous amount pride, blood,sweat and tears invested...........despite his unmatched fleet.

While yes, it is " nicety" that locomotives look nice, and he does handle a passenger train every month or so, he just doesnt have the money. Right now, its more important to handle trains safely over new ties..... or to even have the fuel to handle them.


But some how, just some how.......the trains keep rolling.[2c]

[cpbloom]

This topic always makes me think that some railfans became railfans just for the love of paint schemes. There is so much more to being a railfan than this, IMO.

[dharmon]

Like I said before..substitute Trains for NASCAR ...it's the same thing.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cpbloom

This topic always makes me think that some railfans became railfans just for the love of paint schemes. There is so much more to being a railfan than this, IMO.

Yet there are many with their slide collections and roster shots collected for decades who would disagree...

LC

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

This seems a good place to insert that there was a SP engine - 9328 - in SP colors and logo wandering through Lincoln during Xmas/New Years. It wasn't clean, but it was definitely a nice change from the clean orange we see all the time. There was also a NS in dusty black - but I still think black is most flattering - especially when accessorized with white!

Mook

Of course it looked good, it was in SP paint, probably with a little CEFX below the number.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

This seems a good place to insert that there was a SP engine - 9328 - in SP colors and logo wandering through Lincoln during Xmas/New Years. It wasn't clean, but it was definitely a nice change from the clean orange we see all the time. There was also a NS in dusty black - but I still think black is most flattering - especially when accessorized with white!

Mook

Of course it looked good, it was in SP paint, probably with a little CEFX below the number.

I didn't get close enough to really look it over - it was moving right along - but didn't UP buy SP and could it have been a UP engine? Or are the un-repainted ones with a leasing company?

[Mookie]

The BNSF runs old Santa Fe engines in their original paint through here all the time (Dash-9's). The engines are in need of a good paint job, but they are always clean.

[Anonymous]

I guess the airlines should let their airplanes look like garbage trucks, this will give the customers a feeling of efficiency and value for their dollar when they are flying. Did I get it right or am I missing something?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Penn Central Black

I guess the airlines should let their airplanes look like garbage trucks, this will give the customers a feeling of efficiency and value for their dollar when they are flying. Did I get it right or am I missing something?

We went to Russia some years ago.When we landed at the Moscow Airport I noticed a North Korean jetliner spotted over to one end of the depot. It looked as if it were painted with a mop, and the airline name was merely stencilled on the side in a poor grade of paint. I remarked to my wife, "What must the inside look like?"

As an entertaining aside...We flew from Moscow to Siberia. the seats inside the Soviet era jet were upholstered in the exact same fabric used to re-upholster the South Shore Line's orange cars towards the end of the latter's careers.
Mitch

[oltmannd]

I've noticed that NS has dropped the NS logo from their new freight cars. I wonder if it's because they worry about public perception when the cars get beat up/graffittied. They also have started painting locos with the new "horsehead" logo - an image they push with their TV ads.

Years ago, the Conrail corporate graphic artist was against applying the "Conrail Quality" logo to freight cars for the same reason. She though applying it to locomotives was OK, since they got washed periodically, but not freight cars. However, Hollidaysburg did what they wanted to, anyway, and you can still see some of the worst looking mill gons running around with the "Quality" logo on them.

[fuzzybroken]

My [2c]:

I like the old junk! I prefer pictures of the "this used to be <insert RR name here>'s engine about four owners ago" to "another picture of a Dash 9/AC4400 etc.". On the other hand, I also like to see nice, bright, shiny, branny-spankin'-new paint on what *used* to be a horrible-looking engine or freight car, mostly because it represents progress in the right direction, to a unified future, especially in the case of some of the "fallen flag" equipment. At the same time, it's a bittersweet sight, losing the "history" of what was, yet seeing the bright new image of the future.

By the way, my impression of UPS is that it is not as clean as it once was. Some of their trucks get pretty dirty! And with the recent logo/image change, they'll still have trucks running around in two paint schemes for a while, but it will still be the same "brown" (stupid ad campaign, IMO).

-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

This seems a good place to insert that there was a SP engine - 9328 - in SP colors and logo wandering through Lincoln during Xmas/New Years. It wasn't clean, but it was definitely a nice change from the clean orange we see all the time. There was also a NS in dusty black - but I still think black is most flattering - especially when accessorized with white!

Mook

Of course it looked good, it was in SP paint, probably with a little CEFX below the number.

I didn't get close enough to really look it over - it was moving right along - but didn't UP buy SP and could it have been a UP engine? Or are the un-repainted ones with a leasing company?

To the best of my knowledge all of the SD45T-2s that UP has not retired/sold have been renumbered and rebuilt with 3000HP engines. Since UP 9328 would be an 8-40C, I am assuming this did not have a UP number (no yellow, I am guessing). CIT (CEFX) and GE (GECX) (I forgot about it) have bought serveral ex-SP SD40T-2s, SD40Rs, and SD45T-2s. They just stencil a small reporting mark on the cab underneath the number. On some they painted a line through the Southern Pacific.

I just checked, CEFX 9328 does exist, GECX 9328 does not.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Remember the golden rule of railroading...........if it dont make dollars, it dont make sense. [8D]

The owner of the short line I was referring too is cash poor, he has alot of recieveables, but he aint getting his share of pie from the dreaded ( another thread) Guilford rail. Out of all his engines, 2 have the " official" scheme. One is still in its old faded jeans blue conrail paint, the other is a UP with a black sqaure covering the UP and the other is a orange switcher.

Yeah it would be "cool" to have a matched fleet. But he needs to buy others things, like fuel and new ties. Belive me, he is a railfan first and has a tremendous amount pride, blood,sweat and tears invested...........despite his unmatched fleet.

While yes, it is " nicety" that locomotives look nice, and he does handle a passenger train every month or so, he just doesnt have the money. Right now, its more important to handle trains safely over new ties..... or to even have the fuel to handle them.


But some how, just some how.......the trains keep rolling.[2c]

Actually, the rule is "if it won't raise the stock price don't do it".

Making money is part of it, but even more important is making MORE money each year at a steady pace and convincing the market that:

1. this will occur
2. it will occur because you have a plan to make it happen
3. the plan is a good one
4. you have a track record of implementing your plans
5. management is competent and engaged

Your overall corporate image is a large part of this and clean, painted locomotives are a part of this.

Why do railfans obsess over paint? Might as well ask why they obsess over Alcos and Baldwins, too. Because their railfans!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Remember the golden rule of railroading...........if it dont make dollars, it dont make sense. [8D]

The owner of the short line I was referring too is cash poor, he has alot of recieveables, but he aint getting his share of pie from the dreaded ( another thread) Guilford rail. Out of all his engines, 2 have the " official" scheme. One is still in its old faded jeans blue conrail paint, the other is a UP with a black sqaure covering the UP and the other is a orange switcher.

Yeah it would be "cool" to have a matched fleet. But he needs to buy others things, like fuel and new ties. Belive me, he is a railfan first and has a tremendous amount pride, blood,sweat and tears invested...........despite his unmatched fleet.

While yes, it is " nicety" that locomotives look nice, and he does handle a passenger train every month or so, he just doesnt have the money. Right now, its more important to handle trains safely over new ties..... or to even have the fuel to handle them.


But some how, just some how.......the trains keep rolling.[2c]

Actually, the rule is "if it won't raise the stock price don't do it".

Making money is part of it, but even more important is making MORE money each year at a steady pace and convincing the market that:

1. this will occur
2. it will occur because you have a plan to make it happen
3. the plan is a good one
4. you have a track record of implementing your plans
5. management is competent and engaged

Your overall corporate image is a large part of this and clean, painted locomotives are a part of this.

Why do railfans obsess over paint? Might as well ask why they obsess over Alcos and Baldwins, too. Because their railfans!

The last part is true. I don't necessarily buy into the rest. I'm not necessarily saying I would never paint or wash locomotives if I owned (or managed) the railroad, but I think there are other things I would prioritize above paint. I also would have no trouble explaining that to my shareholders.

LC

[Anonymous]

The only paint schemes I REALLY don't like are the UP patch jobs.

[BNSFGP38]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Remember the golden rule of railroading...........if it dont make dollars, it dont make sense. [8D]

The owner of the short line I was referring too is cash poor, he has alot of recieveables, but he aint getting his share of pie from the dreaded ( another thread) Guilford rail. Out of all his engines, 2 have the " official" scheme. One is still in its old faded jeans blue conrail paint, the other is a UP with a black sqaure covering the UP and the other is a orange switcher.

Yeah it would be "cool" to have a matched fleet. But he needs to buy others things, like fuel and new ties. Belive me, he is a railfan first and has a tremendous amount pride, blood,sweat and tears invested...........despite his unmatched fleet.

While yes, it is " nicety" that locomotives look nice, and he does handle a passenger train every month or so, he just doesnt have the money. Right now, its more important to handle trains safely over new ties..... or to even have the fuel to handle them.


But some how, just some how.......the trains keep rolling.[2c]

Actually, the rule is "if it won't raise the stock price don't do it".

Making money is part of it, but even more important is making MORE money each year at a steady pace and convincing the market that:

1. this will occur
2. it will occur because you have a plan to make it happen
3. the plan is a good one
4. you have a track record of implementing your plans
5. management is competent and engaged

Your overall corporate image is a large part of this and clean, painted locomotives are a part of this.

Why do railfans obsess over paint? Might as well ask why they obsess over Alcos and Baldwins, too. Because their railfans!

Stock? Whats that???????? LOL. The shortline owner I know sometimes may hand you one of those paddles with a rubber ball and say "Take these in lieu of pay" like in Blazeing Saddles. [:p]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Remember the golden rule of railroading...........if it dont make dollars, it dont make sense. [8D]

The owner of the short line I was referring too is cash poor, he has alot of recieveables, but he aint getting his share of pie from the dreaded ( another thread) Guilford rail. Out of all his engines, 2 have the " official" scheme. One is still in its old faded jeans blue conrail paint, the other is a UP with a black sqaure covering the UP and the other is a orange switcher.

Yeah it would be "cool" to have a matched fleet. But he needs to buy others things, like fuel and new ties. Belive me, he is a railfan first and has a tremendous amount pride, blood,sweat and tears invested...........despite his unmatched fleet.

While yes, it is " nicety" that locomotives look nice, and he does handle a passenger train every month or so, he just doesnt have the money. Right now, its more important to handle trains safely over new ties..... or to even have the fuel to handle them.


But some how, just some how.......the trains keep rolling.[2c]

Actually, the rule is "if it won't raise the stock price don't do it".

Making money is part of it, but even more important is making MORE money each year at a steady pace and convincing the market that:

1. this will occur
2. it will occur because you have a plan to make it happen
3. the plan is a good one
4. you have a track record of implementing your plans
5. management is competent and engaged

Your overall corporate image is a large part of this and clean, painted locomotives are a part of this.

Why do railfans obsess over paint? Might as well ask why they obsess over Alcos and Baldwins, too. Because their railfans!

The last part is true. I don't necessarily buy into the rest. I'm not necessarily saying I would never paint or wash locomotives if I owned (or managed) the railroad, but I think there are other things I would prioritize above paint. I also would have no trouble explaining that to my shareholders.

LC

You mean you just might paint'em all black, perhaps with some white lettering? Hmmm. Who does that?

[Anonymous]

I'm a railfan deep in the heart of NS territory. Sure, it's nice to see a "clean" locomotive, but even I'm not dumb enough to believe that a working freight engine is going to look like it belongs on the Southern Crescent.

Pretty paint jobs are important when people ride on the train... it's a first impression. The New Haven RR went through about a half dozen different paint jobs as it died. The only thing a McGinnis paint scheme did to the locomotives was show up where rust, corrosives and fire had caught an unfortunate passenger engine. Did anyone really want to ride the Yankee Clipper? Yes... when they had to.

An argument can be made for some "speciality" freight trains to have a speciality paint scheme. The bright orange PFE trains come to mind. TRAINS did an article about two months ago about moving fresh fruit and veggies cross country. They tracked a lettuce car that looked, well, like the rust fairy had been by to visit. Do I really think that I actually want to eat lettuce that had been riding in that car? Nope. But until TRAINS did the article, how that lettuce hit my table in Georgia never really occurred to me.

At the risk of being labeled a heretic, I do have to say that UP has the most eye catching locomotives in the USA right now. Their paint scheme is visible (good for safety) and uniform. It's also traditional. Does the paint scheme help pay the bills? I don't know...that's up to smarter folks like Mark to figure out. It's really a matter of product identification; just like "Brown" is automatically thought of as UPS, now. "Armour Yellow" says "Union Pacific".

Erik

[espeefoamer]

Now some UP engines are looking as dirty and grungy as the SP units did.