SAFETY ON THE KICKING HORSE PASS

[traisessive1]

I have never worked in mountain grade nor have used retainers so you would have to ask guys who have. CP certainly seemed to think so. 

[Euclid]

traisessive1

Third. Putting retainers in the High Pressure position should leave about 20 psi in the cylinder when you release the brakes. The whole system will recharge while leaving that air in the brake cylinder; 20 psi is LESS than the emegency application the train would be in IF they released the air.

Would 20 psi in each cylinder hold the train from rolling down the grade?

[traisessive1]

First of all the TSB in Canada can't do anything. They can only make suggestions and recommendations. It's TRANSPORT CANADA who makes rulings. They are not the same thing. 

Second, if the rules stated handbrakes didn't need to be applied, applying handbrakes will almost certainly have you brought in for discipline for delaying trains. Also, no conductor wants to keel over and die from an exploded heart. Tying on handbrakes is VERY physically demanding from a cardio point of view. 

Third. Putting retainers in the High Pressure position should leave about 20 psi in the cylinder when you release the brakes. The whole system will recharge while leaving that air in the brake cylinder; 20 psi is LESS than the emegency application the train would be in IF they released the air.  

[Euclid]

BaltACD

 

Euclid

But perhaps there is a disctintion between securing a train and leaving it for a period of time, and just securing it to prevent it from rolling away as the brakes release on a grade due to recharging the reservoirs; and thus releasing before the reservoirs are charged sufficiently to make an application sufficient to control the train.   

 

 

There is no distinction - if it can roll, it will.  Safety is applying hand brakes.  No one knows at the start of a incident how long the train will be rquired to remain on the grade!  

 

Well if there is a rule to apply handbrakes any time a train stops, why did TSB, in response to this runaway, introduce a new emergency rule requiring handbrakes to be applied when a train stops?

[BaltACD]

Euclid

But perhaps there is a disctintion between securing a train and leaving it for a period of time, and just securing it to prevent it from rolling away as the brakes release on a grade due to recharging the reservoirs; and thus releasing before the reservoirs are charged sufficiently to make an application sufficient to control the train.   

There is no distinction - if it can roll, it will.  Safety is applying hand brakes.  No one knows at the start of a incident how long the train will be rquired to remain on the grade!  

[Euclid]

zugmann

Whether emergency application or retainers, you are still relying on air (and gaskets/fittings) to hold a train. 

 

Cars leak off.  That's why we (our rules) allowed to jsut leave cars sit around with an emergency applicaiton.  They must be tied down (handbrakes).

 

Now another question to throw into the pot:  when was the last time the cars were given an inspection by trained MECHANICAL personnel?

 

If the TSB had allowed the use of retainers to hold a train and did not require the use of handbrakes for that purpose, I assume it was okay to use the retainers.  I understand your point about air not being reliable for securement.  But perhaps there is a disctintion between securing a train and leaving it for a period of time, and just securing it to prevent it from rolling away as the brakes release on a grade due to recharging the reservoirs; and thus releasing before the reservoirs are charged sufficiently to make an application sufficient to control the train.   

[zugmann]

Whether emergency application or retainers, you are still relying on air (and gaskets/fittings) to hold a train. 

 

Cars leak off.  That's why we (our rules) allowed to jsut leave cars sit around with an emergency applicaiton.  They must be tied down (handbrakes).

 

Now another question to throw into the pot:  when was the last time the cars were given an inspection by trained MECHANICAL personnel?

[Euclid]

jeffhergert

I just check in on this thread now and then.  Has it been stated that the new crew released the air?  I think this is the first page were the use of retainers has been mentioned.  How many were set up?  Which crew set them up? 

Until now it's been implied that the train rolled away on it's own.  What have I missed.

Jeff 

 

 

Jeff,

I seem to recall the use of retainers mentioned in the other thread, but I don’t recall any details.  I do not recall that here or any other news source I have seen, has it ever been stated that the new crew released the air. 

What has been reported is that the new crew was on the engine waiting for an okay to proceed while the train was being held by the emergency application that had been made to stop the train when it was not responding well to service applications. 

Then while the new crew was waiting onboard the engine, the emergency application suddenly released on its own for an unknown reason.

Here is my question on Retainers 101: Say that you stop a train with an emergency application, and then set retainers on some of the cars.  Then, when you pump up the air, what happens to the emergency application on the cars with and without retainers set?  

[jeffhergert]

I just check in on this thread now and then.  Has it been stated that the new crew released the air?  I think this is the first page were the use of retainers has been mentioned.  How many were set up?  Which crew set them up? 

Until now it's been implied that the train rolled away on it's own.  What have I missed.

Jeff 

[Euclid]

cx500

I believe the expectation was that setting the retainers would keep enough braking power, that together with the dynamic brakes on the three big GEs, would be able to control the train.  Unfortunately the bitter cold meant over time the air gradually seeped away through hard gaskets.

 

So if they stopped the train with an emergency application, does that mean that if they then set retainers and recharged the reservoirs, they could attain the full charge without the retained portion of the emergency application releasing?

And if the answer to that question is yes, the only thing they would have to worry about would be if the retained portion of the service application was not sufficient to hold the train. 

And if they did all of that and the retained portion of the emergency application failed to hold the train, then it would be accurate to say that they train began to roll when they were on board, but not expecting it to roll at that time. 

The way that this has been reported suggests that they were on board and the train just started to roll on its own.  To me, that implies that there were taking no action as the train began to roll.  But if all of the above regarding the retainers is true, then they were taking action when the train began to roll.  They were pumping up air. It is just that they did not expect the brakes to release while recharging because they expected the retainers to retain enough of the emergency application to hold the train. 

If this is all of what happened, then it all makes sense to me.  Their normal procedure would be to use retainers to hold the train while they released the brakes; as opposed to setting handbrakes.  Then the order from TSA to set handbrakes is a response to the concept that using retainers is not reliable enough. 

Therefore, if this is all true, then they were not ignoring the laws of physics prior to the government order to use handbrakes.  They were just using a method different than handbrakes to deal with the laws of physics. 

And if all of that is true, I speculate that the reason their method failed is that the retained portion of the emgerncy application leaked out of the brake cylinders due to cold piston rod packing.  That would be the part that surprised them.  Otherwise, they probably knew just how many retainers would be required to hold the train.

[cx500]

I believe the expectation was that setting the retainers would keep enough braking power, that together with the dynamic brakes on the three big GEs, would be able to control the train.  Unfortunately the bitter cold meant over time the air gradually seeped away through hard gaskets.

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

zardoz

So if the Canadian railroads succeed in getting the handbrake requirement rescinded, then the very first action train crews need to do upon arriving at the train is to ascertain an escape route they can use when the train starts doing just what it did in this situation: moving on its own. When it starts moving, bail, and let the railroad reap the benefits of disagreeing with real-world physics.

 

 

I just can't wrap my head around this.  So if a train goes into emergency (intentional or not) on a steep grade, what does the comapny want the crew to do?  Seriously?  Unless they are going to only run ECP brakes on the grade (which from my limited understanding can recharge without releasing?), what do you do? 

This is RRing 101.  If they can't understand that...

 

 

 

I cannot wrap my head around it either.  This whole story of the runaway, the new government brake order, what preceeded that order, every comment, interview, and news report I have read-- all of it is full of holes. 

[zugmann]

zardoz

So if the Canadian railroads succeed in getting the handbrake requirement rescinded, then the very first action train crews need to do upon arriving at the train is to ascertain an escape route they can use when the train starts doing just what it did in this situation: moving on its own. When it starts moving, bail, and let the railroad reap the benefits of disagreeing with real-world physics.

I just can't wrap my head around this.  So if a train goes into emergency (intentional or not) on a steep grade, what does the comapny want the crew to do?  Seriously?  Unless they are going to only run ECP brakes on the grade (which from my limited understanding can recharge without releasing?), what do you do? 

This is RRing 101.  If they can't understand that...

 

 

[zardoz]

BaltACD

Those that don't believe in science don't think the laws of physics apply, expecially to anything they do or want to do.

Sounds like the mantra of the current administration, especially in regards to the environment.

So if the Canadian railroads succeed in getting the handbrake requirement rescinded, then the very first action train crews need to do upon arriving at the train is to ascertain an escape route they can use when the train starts doing just what it did in this situation: moving on its own. When it starts moving, bail, and let the railroad reap the benefits of disagreeing with real-world physics.

[BaltACD]

Deggesty

Granted, it has been several years since I took my college course in physics--but I do not recall any statement to the effect that Canada observes laws of physics that differ from the laws observed in the United States. Whenever I talked with my physics professor (for close to sixty years) he never mentioned any such difference.

Those that don't believe in science don't think the laws of physics apply, expecially to anything they do or want to do.

[Deggesty]

Granted, it has been several years since I took my college course in physics--but I do not recall any statement to the effect that Canada observes laws of physics that differ from the laws observed in the United States. Whenever I talked with my physics professor (for close to sixty years) he never mentioned any such difference.

[BaltACD]

Euclid

 

BaltACD

If you are a railroader 'qualified' on mountain territory and you value safety for yourself and the other members of your crew - you start having hand brakes applied! If you are 'not qualified' on mountain territory - WTF are you doing at the control stand of the locomotive! The term QUALIFIED is not one to be taken lightly! 

What I am wondering about has nothing to do with whether or not the use of handbrakes is a good practice.  What I am wondering about is how a practice that is essntial on one railroad with steep grades is not essential on another railroad with steep grades.  Does gravity work differently in Canada?

NOT QUALIFIED applies to Keith Creel's abiltiy to railroad in the mountains.  The laws of physics cannot be 'dismissed' without severe penalty.

[zugmann]

Euclid

What I am wondering about is how a practice that is essntial on one railroad with steep grades is not essential on another railroad with steep grades. Does gravity work differently in Canada?

Seems to me it was essential to both. 

[zugmann]

Euclid

why was it necessary for the government to impose a new rule to set handbrakes? Why the need for a new rule requiring something that is already required?????

Something, something, liability? Something, something, gov't wants to look like it's doing something?

 

I don't know.

[Euclid]

zugmann

 

Euclid

So how were they supposed to start that train without setting any handbrakes first?

 

 

You tie handbrakes on first. 

 

If they had an existing rule to secure the train with handbrakes while it stopped on the grade; and if they went ahead and did that;  why was it necessary for the government to impose a new rule to set handbrakes?  Why the need for a new rule requiring something that is already required?????

[Euclid]

BaltACD

If you are a railroader 'qualified' on mountain territory and you value safety for yourself and the other members of your crew - you start having hand brakes applied! If you are 'not qualified' on mountain territory - WTF are you doing at the control stand of the locomotive! The term QUALIFIED is not one to be taken lightly!

What I am wondering about has nothing to do with whether or not the use of handbrakes is a good practice.  What I am wondering about is how a practice that is essntial on one railroad with steep grades is not essential on another railroad with steep grades.  Does gravity work differently in Canada?

[BaltACD]

Euclid

 

BaltACD

 

Euclid

So the train is standing on the grade with an emergency application holding it and no hand brakes set.  What exactly do you do to begin moving the train to continue down the grade?

Can you recharge the reservoirs fully without causing the emergency application to release at some point in the recharging process?

If not: how do you know the brakes will not release before there is enough reservoir pressure to make a strong enough application to control the train once the train begins moving?

Is it possible to fully recharge the reservoirs without having any release of brakes due to the recharging?   

You start securing the train - hand brake by hand brake until enough hand brakes have been appled to hold the train - then you release the air brakes - pumping off the emergency application and bringing the train line up to the pressure specified for the train - then you have enough air pressure to make service application(s) as necessary to control the train as the hand brakes are released.

You maintain control of the train at all times.

You don't get on the train and release the air brakes with no other actions being taken. 

Yes I understand that procedure, but I am asking what is done when there is no requirement to secrure the train with handbrakes, as was apparently the case with the CP train that ran away.  So how were they supposed to start that train without setting any handbrakes first? 

OR-- maybe there was a requirement to set handbrakes to restart, but they had not done that yet, and meanwhile, the brakes released on their own.  With all the reporting on this wreck and the new rule imposed for the use of handbrakes, it remains unclear how the new rule would have come into play with this CP incident, and what was required prior to the new rule.  

If you are a railroader 'qualified' on mountain territory and you value safety for yourself and the other members of your crew - you start having hand brakes applied!   If you are 'not qualified' on mountain territory - WTF are you doing at the control stand of the locomotive!

The term QUALIFIED is not one to be taken lightly!

[zugmann]

Euclid

So how were they supposed to start that train without setting any handbrakes first?

You tie handbrakes on first. 

[Euclid]

BaltACD

 

Euclid

So the train is standing on the grade with an emergency application holding it and no hand brakes set.  What exactly do you do to begin moving the train to continue down the grade?

Can you recharge the reservoirs fully without causing the emergency application to release at some point in the recharging process?

If not: how do you know the brakes will not release before there is enough reservoir pressure to make a strong enough application to control the train once the train begins moving?

Is it possible to fully recharge the reservoirs without having any release of brakes due to the recharging?  

 

 

You start securing the train - hand brake by hand brake until enough hand brakes have been appled to hold the train - then you release the air brakes - pumping off the emergency application and bringing the train line up to the pressure specified for the train - then you have enough air pressure to make service application(s) as necessary to control the train as the hand brakes are released.

You maintain control of the train at all times.

You don't get on the train and release the air brakes with no other actions being taken.

 

Yes I understand that procedure, but I am asking what is done when there is no requirement to secrure the train with handbrakes, as was apparently the case with the CP train that ran away.  So how were they supposed to start that train without setting any handbrakes first?

 

OR-- maybe there was a requirement to set handbrakes to restart, but they had not done that yet, and meanwhile, the brakes released on their own.  With all the reporting on this wreck and the new rule imposed for the use of handbrakes, it remains unclear how the new rule would have come into play with this CP incident, and what was required prior to the new rule.   

[BaltACD]

Euclid

So the train is standing on the grade with an emergency application holding it and no hand brakes set.  What exactly do you do to begin moving the train to continue down the grade?

Can you recharge the reservoirs fully without causing the emergency application to release at some point in the recharging process?

If not: how do you know the brakes will not release before there is enough reservoir pressure to make a strong enough application to control the train once the train begins moving?

Is it possible to fully recharge the reservoirs without having any release of brakes due to the recharging?  

You start securing the train - hand brake by hand brake until enough hand brakes have been appled to hold the train - then you release the air brakes - pumping off the emergency application and bringing the train line up to the pressure specified for the train - then you have enough air pressure to make service application(s) as necessary to control the train as the hand brakes are released.

You maintain control of the train at all times.

You don't get on the train and release the air brakes with no other actions being taken.

[Euclid]

So the train is standing on the grade with an emergency application holding it and no hand brakes set.  What exactly do you do to begin moving the train to continue down the grade?

Can you recharge the reservoirs fully without causing the emergency application to release at some point in the recharging process?

If not: how do you know the brakes will not release before there is enough reservoir pressure to make a strong enough application to control the train once the train begins moving?

Is it possible to fully recharge the reservoirs without having any release of brakes due to the recharging?  

[BaltACD]

zardoz

 

BaltACD

 

zardoz 

BaltACD

Jumping to conclusions...? 

Is that what your little critters are doing? 

They are investigating the effects of gravity.  No conclusions are being drawn. 

Balt, check these guys out...

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

I have seen that elsewhere - mesmerizing!

[zardoz]

BaltACD

 

 

zardoz

 

BaltACD

Jumping to conclusions...? 

Is that what your little critters are doing?

 

 

They are investigating the effects of gravity.  No conclusions are being drawn.

 

Balt, check these guys out...

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

 

[BaltACD]

caldreamer

It is true that 9900 tons is not a heavy train by todays standards, but with the spiral tunnels and steep grade, perhaps a maximum of 9000 trailing tons at 20 MPH or less might be a good idea especially in bad weather.  Alo considering that this is not the first runaway over Kicking Horse Pass.

    Caldreamer

Don't know what the TTSI and/or Train Handling Instructions are in effect for this territory.

In the territories I am familiar with - Maximum speeds for trains descending 'mountain grades' is 15 MPH and in some cases 12 MPH.  Additionally TTSI specify specific timings are specified between specific locations - trains operating between the points in a shorter amount of time than specified must stop their trains and be governed by additional instructions.

NTSB in their testing done in concert with a 2000 derailment of a coal train that ran away determined that with 286K loads - 15 MPH was the MAXIMUM speed that air brakes alone could control the train on the grades - above 15 MPH the brakes faded to ineffectiveness account increasing heat.

Railroads must operate with the geographical challenges they encounter and develop strategies to safely operate trains through the geography - no matter what the geography is.  Operations that work where the maximium grade is 0.3% don't cut it where grades are 1% to 2% or more.