Re: Your point (3) . In Portland, OR the Springwood Corridor Trail coexists happily with the Oregon Pacific Railroad. I have never heard of any problems.
Did anybody see in the most recent article in TRAINS on the Rocky Mountaineer? Here is a URL to their website:
https://www.rockymountaineer.com/
This is the kind of thing that I hope could one day be offered over a rebuilt NWP line to Eureka. I realize there isn’t much comparison in the scenery to the Canadian Rockies but, what the heck? The scenery of the northern California redwoods ain’t that bad either!
It appears now as if SMART will rebuild the tracks as far as Cloverdale and possibly Ukiah. If that happens, such a train could theoretically operate at speeds of up to 79MPH through that area. This would allow for an all daylight run from the San Francisco Bay Area to Eureka with an early morning departure in the Bay Area and an evening arrival in Eureka. I have absolutely no idea where a terminal for such a train could be located in the Bay Area. If anyone ever gets serious about it, that will have to be determined.
Could such a service pay for the tracks? Of course not but it might help. I continue to envision a long shot export-import port on Humboldt Bay. This is a possibility if only because there are some business leaders in the area who favor that.
There is only ONE thing that would make the rebuilding of the line completely, totally and utterly impossible. That is if everyone simply assumes it’s impossible and does nothing. Inaction is the true key to defeat.
I guess my motive for making these posts on here is that I have sincerely hoped that I might’ve sparked some interest among TRAINS readers. I hope I’ve done that even if I only got a couple of people interested. More than that I cannot do. Oh, well, I suppose I could sell my "substantial" position in Berkshire Hathaway. By doing that I could raise enough money to rebuild about a mile of track. (Ha, ha, ha!). All kidding aside, if you live in California – write you state rep. All you will lose is the cost of a stamp.
I really don’t know what more I can say about this. So I’ll just keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. It’ll take a miracle, folks, but you never know. Sometimes miracles really do happen
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Backshop,
I don't think I misunderstood him. If I did then I hope he tells me so. I thought his comments were more upbeat and made it clear that it IS possible. His final comment about Berkshire Hathway I took to mean that he believes it's a long shot. Well, duh! We know that. But there's still hope. As long as no one removes the rails there's hope. But once those rails are gone they're gone for good and there will be no future ray of hope that they might come back.
You asked me if I "know who Berkshire Hathaway is". Actually, I own stock in Berkshire. But not enough to sell and rebuild the line with! :)
My post about the Humboldt & Eastern was copied and pasted directly from their website. And, well, I guess I have to agree that it does sound just a bit "pie in the sky" doesn't it? Another thing that troubles me, they encourage people on their website to "share their thoughts". Well, guess what? I did and they did not return my e-mail. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised.
Fred M Cain Gerald, This is good! This is GREAT! Finally got a little bit of news that's not so pessimistic there! Make no mistake about it, though, there's room for pessimism.
Gerald,
This is good! This is GREAT! Finally got a little bit of news that's not so pessimistic there! Make no mistake about it, though, there's room for pessimism.
Your last post from the Humboldt & Eastern makes plenty of general promises but no concrete examples. It's a pipedream and I'm not sure what's in the pipe, it being California.
Here are ten benefits taken from the Humboldt & Eastern Railroad's website. Although they favor building a new line, mind you.
Charlie,
The part about Housatonic not pursuing passenger service is true. But there is another group pushing this. It's called "The Train Campaign". I make periodic contributions to them. I cannot predict if they will succeed or not. But my point is they would never even have had the chance had the rails been pulled up.
As for Housatonic's freight business, it's had its ups and downs but I'd hate to say simply that "It's declining". That suggests that it may one day meet its demise. Also, Housatonic has some other lines that have not been as successful as this one including parts of the former New Haven "Maybrook" line.
Again, my point was this line came back from the dead. If hell freezes over, the NWP line might too.
FMC
The story on Wiki.
"In 2008 HRRC considering the possibility of resuming commercial passenger service along the entire line from Danbury to Pittsfield, and in May 2010 began a formal study of the same. The estimated cost of upgrading the railroad to support passenger trains was estimated to be between $100 million and $150 million, not including the cost of the required equipment.
In 2011, the Housatonic Railroad decided it would not renew its agreement with BSRM to continue operating passenger excursions over their railroad. Colin Pease, spokesperson for HRRC, said, "The Housatonic Railroad has determined that the continued operation of the Berkshire Scenic Railway on Housatonic-owned tracks is no longer possible." Despite millions invested by the state, track conditions grew worse and freight shipments declined.
In July 2014, Massachusetts Department of Transportation's Board of Directors authorized the purchase of 37 miles of the railroad's Berkshire Line. MassDOT's purchase is intended to extend rail services to New York City, following track improvements for passenger and freight service between Massachusetts and Connecticut."
The Housatonic Railroad site.
I think there are quite possibly several solutions to the Scotia Bluffs issue including the one you cited but I don't want to delve into that too much because I am not an engineer.
But what I can observe is that California Route 1 has some real issues that are similar in some ways to this rail line. The State addresses them as they come up. They even built one really long tunnel under the bluffs.
But I suspect there are political problems, too. The poor residents of northern Calif. might just feel a tid bit under represented. This is similar to some of the hapless residents in Upstate & Western New York who have always felt that the State sends big bucks to the more liberal areas Downstate but doesn't always address their needs. Billions and billions for subway & commuter rail lines but they can't even get a rural branch line rebuilt. Is there somewhat of an analogy here?
I mean, the state set up the North Coast Rail Authority to reopen and maintain the line but provided it with little or no funds. What the heck? I have some more political suspicions about this but I fear that they might be too inflammatory so I'll just let that go. Unless, if someone wants to discuss that offlist, that fine!
Fred M. Cain,
fredmcain2003@yahoo.com
The solution to the Scotia Bluffs problem is actually quite..no, make that extremely expensive...the railroad would have to be moved completely to the other side of the river, canyon and US 101, which would also put it on the land of the Scotia mill site, whether it's there or not...that eliminates all of the problems with the sliding hill sides during winter with the Eel River. As for the tunnels...that's an entirely other issue and. The way I'd look at is this, from a practical standpoint...forget widening US 101 any further, with the caveat that all future increases in traffic would be handled by the rail line, and that can include a very short version of an auto-train for those that want to visit Humboldt County and the go to the State university there-in, but you would probably need the finances of Berkshire-Hathaway to make it happen.
Well, what the heck. I guess it will really take nothing short of a miracle to save and reopen the line but miracles DO happen. I can share a true miracle with you that really happened.
Back in the mid 1980s, what was left of the old New York, New Haven & Hartford’s Berkshire line in Connecticut looked as bad as or worse than most of the NWP line to Eureka. Since I used to live in Connecticut and was also a hard-core New Haven fan, that fact really saddened me. The line hadn’t seen a train in at least 15 years and there were three and four inch diameter trees growing between the rails. I didn’t even dare to hope for a miracle – it seemed all was lost. It was a goner for sure. The line was, I believe, abandoned. But the State of Connecticut had a program for a while that when a rail line was officially abandoned, it was acquired by the State.
This is a long story, really, that there is no room to provide for here but the long short of it is that the Housatonic R.R. is running on it today and it’s in great shape! Thank God!
Similarities to the NWP line: Hopelessness and decay. No "online" freight traffic. Just like the SP, the New Haven in its last years did little or no maintenance and the Penn Central did NO maintenance. Now today there is a group in New England that has been waging a fight to restore passenger service over the line.
Differences: This line is only about 35 mile long instead of over 200 miles long. Also, I don’t think there were any really significant washouts or destruction of roadbed. But one positive difference is that California has long, dry summers which might slow decay down some whereas Connecticut has very hot, humid wet summers. Probably the Housatonic had to replace all the ties.
There are other so-called miracles around the country as well. I think the old NYS&W line across northern New Jersey was one.
So, yes there IS hope in spite of the naysayers.
I don't see any benefits, except for railfans being able to ride trains. It doesn't have the population density for passenger trains. It doesn't have the industry to support freight trains. A new container port isn't needed on the west coast. There's a reason the Espee spun it off and the shortline couldn't even make it work.
HeavyFeather Poppulation of the COunty is 137k. 25k in Eureka, and another 15k or so in Arcata. I agree...we dont need a rail here. but it would sure be nice. Whenever I leave the county, I am always excited to see trains. Oh, I forgot...we have four GP9's stuck in Eureka...they count, right?
Poppulation of the COunty is 137k. 25k in Eureka, and another 15k or so in Arcata.
I agree...we dont need a rail here. but it would sure be nice. Whenever I leave the county, I am always excited to see trains. Oh, I forgot...we have four GP9's stuck in Eureka...they count, right?
RailPAC President We don't need another port on the west coast. The "day quicker" to NE Asia is lost with an extra day on the rail. There is near zero on line traffic. There is near zero passenger potential account of low population. There are plenty of far more urgent needs in California for rail capital dollars, e.g. Altamont Pass, LAUS, and miles of single track where there should be double, and where there is a real need. I suggest that anyone wanting to reopen the line should get a stout pair of boots and go walk it. Brush clearance!! PD
We don't need another port on the west coast. The "day quicker" to NE Asia is lost with an extra day on the rail. There is near zero on line traffic. There is near zero passenger potential account of low population. There are plenty of far more urgent needs in California for rail capital dollars, e.g. Altamont Pass, LAUS, and miles of single track where there should be double, and where there is a real need. I suggest that anyone wanting to reopen the line should get a stout pair of boots and go walk it. Brush clearance!!
PD
Also, with a current area population of only 80K, there'd have to be a large population increase if the port was going to be of any useful size.
The fact that container business can be handled without even the need to use Portland, says there is no economic reason to build a new port on Humboldt Bay.
Sadly, what doesn't show up in a a "flyover" are the collapsed tunnels on the south end of the Eel valley, the washed-out/subsided fills and twenty-plus year of no maintenace on the bridges and culverts. In addition, the track structure would need to be raised and re-ballasted, and a replacement of at least two-thirds of the ties would be necessary on the OOS service portion. All of this would take place in a remote and difficult-to-access location. And - this is Cali, not Texas - the environmental obstacles would be considerable (and expensive).It absolutely can be done, and I would first in line to pay to ride the result. The cost just to put the road in serviceable condition would be in the neighborhood of ten thousand dollars per carload for years to come - without considering landowner litigation, the cost to build a container port in Humbolt Bay to service today's container ships, and the railroad's operating costs.
Moreover - the difficulty in working with the powerful West Coast port unions is such that I expect a big chunk of the "inland containers" (those moved far inland for unloading vs. being drayed to a network of port-area "break-bulk" warehouses) to relocate to Mexico or the US East/Gulf Coast. Look what happened in Oregon a couple of years ago - arguements and the endless job actions between the electricans and the longshoremen unions over who plugged in refrigerated containers drove container traffic completely out of the Port of Portland.
In reality, a lot more people use US101 in that area than would ever use a train.
HeavyFeather THe folks who think the rail can return are a fairly small minority locally. THe irony is that the people who are against the rail are largerly 'environmentalists'. THey seem to have a pretty shortsighted view and dont consider how much more environmentally friendly shipping by rail is than shipping by truck.
THe folks who think the rail can return are a fairly small minority locally. THe irony is that the people who are against the rail are largerly 'environmentalists'. THey seem to have a pretty shortsighted view and dont consider how much more environmentally friendly shipping by rail is than shipping by truck.
You know, Feather, I had an interesting e-mail exchange with someone from the "Friends of the Eel River". I tried to point out exactly what you're saying. They want to protect the salmon in the river (a worthy goal) but I tried to point out all the toxins and garbage that must wash off of U.S. 101 in the rainy season. A rail line is far, far more environmentaly "friendly".
At the end, although he (or she) wouldn't admit it, I felt like I gave them something to think about.
Well, the port of Humboldt Bay is a full day closer to Asian markets than the other ports in California. But, it would need to be developed and dregged regularly.
There is currently a significant trail project around Humboldt Bay. THe rail is not being removed, and in some instances, the rail prism is being repaired as the trail goes in along the right of way. THe idea here is to have a scenic railway around Humboldt Bay for locomotives, but in the near term, llikely just speeder cars.
You can 'google' the Humboldt Eastern Railrailroad for a pretty good breakdown of the East West innitiative. It has been fairly widely mocked here locally.
Did some more "flying" today and even found some interesting Google Earth "street views". What I'm seeing now more and more is that the biggest issue is going to be brush removal. That's what I'm seeing. Near the northern part of the line as it approaches Eureka, there are even redwoods growing right next to or even in the tracks. Many people assume that since a redwood can live to be 2,000 years old that they must grow very slowly. Not so. Redwoods are very fast growers when they're young. 20 years of no brush and tree removal has indeed taken its toll.
Once again, the impression that I get is that the total percentage of road that has been either washed away or destroyed in landslides is really quite small if not tiny.
To rebuild the line, the greatest expenditure will be the brush removal and tie replacement.
Now, I do not know when the Google Earth images were actually shot. I was able to "stand" on one bridge and look out over the track. On one side of the bridge the track had very nearly disappeared in the brush and weeds but on the other side of the bridge it was really clean. Obviously those two images were not taken at the same time.
Never say never! But then again if you say "Never say never" then you have already said it! :)
mudchicken (2) Both sides of the argument deserve each other. Competence is not to be found on either side.
(2) Both sides of the argument deserve each other. Competence is not to be found on either side.
Mudchicken,
Well, yeah, I think those are good points but I especially like your point #@.
Regards
It'll never happen. Not only would the rail line have to be completely rebuilt, but it would have to be expanded and made more heavy duty. Then, you have to build the whole port infrastructure and build highways for the intermodal trucks. Meanwhile, SF and LA have more than enough capacity.
MidlandMike Fred M Cain Lumber won't provide much of a future for the line anymore, true. But containers and export grain just might. I'd even venture to say export coal but I wouldn't wanna let the environmentalists in on that. Better to just leave the coal alone for the time being.
Fred M Cain
Lumber won't provide much of a future for the line anymore, true. But containers and export grain just might. I'd even venture to say export coal but I wouldn't wanna let the environmentalists in on that. Better to just leave the coal alone for the time being.
(1) The pressures of expanding US-101 have been out there for a good while, plus the bypasses. (Look at how long Willits [BH's hometown] and Cloverdale took)
(3) As far as railroad and trail co-existing - nope. There are just too many out there that won't respect the operating railroad. (Still watching what's going on in the tunnels on the other end of NWP.) Demographics will continue to change, but folks will still have little control of the bad actors, especially in the great granola bowl.
(4) As far as the dreamers and visionaries go, how's that experiment of 'build the train station first and they will come" working out?
Fred M CainLumber won't provide much of a future for the line anymore, true. But containers and export grain just might. I'd even venture to say export coal but I wouldn't wanna let the environmentalists in on that. Better to just leave the coal alone for the time being.
Do we realy need another port option? One at the end of a long branch line? Consolidation of ports seems to be what is happening.
"Mudchicken",
As "Heavy Feather" pointed out, the NCRA was charged with the responsibility of reopening the rail line but give no funding. How stupid could that be? In a way, this is similar to the way that the U.S. Congress established Amtrak. They were given the responsibility of taking over what was left of the Nation's passenger trains but then provided with as little funding as possible.
What really needs to happen here is that people living in Calfornia who want to see the line rebuilt need to organize and exert pressure on the politicians. Make no mistake about it. The "Friends of the Eel River" are well organized. That might be why we rail advocates lost this fight. Er, well, lost round one anyhow.
I don't understand the rationale of spending untold millions of dollars building a trail then give a million dollar a year (or more) budget to maintain the trail that can only be used by cyclists. Seems like a rail line would benefit more people. Most ideal would be BOTH a rail line and a trail side-by-side.
Some future North Coast Daylight service for tourists would also be really nice. Am I dreaming here? Maybe. But some dreams come true. I once had a dream that streetcars might someday return to some of our important cities. People thought I was crazy and I even kinda dismissed the possibility myself as only dream. Guess what? Dare to dream!
Basically it might someday come down to this. In regards to environmentalism, do we add more lanes to U.S. 101 or do we rebuild a rail line?
Dear "Heavy Feather",
Thanks for the information! You know, I have had a tough time finding anything out about this. I have sent e-mails to the Eureka Chamber of Commerce, The North Coast Rail Authority, Train Riders of California and the Rail Passenger Association of Calif and nobody, absolutely NO ONE would even return an e-mail ! So, your response is much appreciated even though it is somewhat pessimistic.
Resumption of rail service to Eureka is admittedly a really long shot but I don’t think it should be completely dismissed altogether. You cited most but perhaps not all of the obstacles involved with it but there are three things that give me a faint ray of hope that someday it might happen. I found these three by doing extensive Google News searches.
First and foremost of all is that there is a genuine interest in the Humboldt Bay area in bringing rail service back the area. That’s a start. The fact that they would even discuss a possible east-west line reveals this interest. (Personally, I suspect a new east-west line to Redding is an even longer shot that a possible rebuilding of the old line).
Second is the fact that California today has become a very pro-rail state. The building of the high-speed rail line in the Central Valley is evidence of this as is the development of the Capital, Surf and San Joaquin passenger corridors.
Last but not least is the fact that Caltrans has it in their long-term "2040 Plan" to resume rail service to Eureka.
I’m just not sure that the price tag would run into the billions but it might. I have wondered if parts of the Eel River Canyon line should be moved up higher onto the hillside or perhaps bypassed altogether but that’s just a thought. Planting more trees on the unstable slopes wouldn't be a bad idea either even if the rail line is not restored.
So, do I believe it will happen? Maybe but just not in my lifetime.
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