Backshop,
I don't think I misunderstood him. If I did then I hope he tells me so. I thought his comments were more upbeat and made it clear that it IS possible. His final comment about Berkshire Hathway I took to mean that he believes it's a long shot. Well, duh! We know that. But there's still hope. As long as no one removes the rails there's hope. But once those rails are gone they're gone for good and there will be no future ray of hope that they might come back.
You asked me if I "know who Berkshire Hathaway is". Actually, I own stock in Berkshire. But not enough to sell and rebuild the line with! :)
My post about the Humboldt & Eastern was copied and pasted directly from their website. And, well, I guess I have to agree that it does sound just a bit "pie in the sky" doesn't it? Another thing that troubles me, they encourage people on their website to "share their thoughts". Well, guess what? I did and they did not return my e-mail. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Did anybody see in the most recent article in TRAINS on the Rocky Mountaineer? Here is a URL to their website:
https://www.rockymountaineer.com/
This is the kind of thing that I hope could one day be offered over a rebuilt NWP line to Eureka. I realize there isn’t much comparison in the scenery to the Canadian Rockies but, what the heck? The scenery of the northern California redwoods ain’t that bad either!
It appears now as if SMART will rebuild the tracks as far as Cloverdale and possibly Ukiah. If that happens, such a train could theoretically operate at speeds of up to 79MPH through that area. This would allow for an all daylight run from the San Francisco Bay Area to Eureka with an early morning departure in the Bay Area and an evening arrival in Eureka. I have absolutely no idea where a terminal for such a train could be located in the Bay Area. If anyone ever gets serious about it, that will have to be determined.
Could such a service pay for the tracks? Of course not but it might help. I continue to envision a long shot export-import port on Humboldt Bay. This is a possibility if only because there are some business leaders in the area who favor that.
There is only ONE thing that would make the rebuilding of the line completely, totally and utterly impossible. That is if everyone simply assumes it’s impossible and does nothing. Inaction is the true key to defeat.
I guess my motive for making these posts on here is that I have sincerely hoped that I might’ve sparked some interest among TRAINS readers. I hope I’ve done that even if I only got a couple of people interested. More than that I cannot do. Oh, well, I suppose I could sell my "substantial" position in Berkshire Hathaway. By doing that I could raise enough money to rebuild about a mile of track. (Ha, ha, ha!). All kidding aside, if you live in California – write you state rep. All you will lose is the cost of a stamp.
I really don’t know what more I can say about this. So I’ll just keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. It’ll take a miracle, folks, but you never know. Sometimes miracles really do happen
Re: Your point (3) . In Portland, OR the Springwood Corridor Trail coexists happily with the Oregon Pacific Railroad. I have never heard of any problems.
Fred, I do appreciate your enthusiasm. Economically, it just would not be feasible for either a freight or passenger service north of Willits. I think a 'small axe takes out a big tree approach' is best at this point. The fact is that the NWP is operating currently. From Schelville to Windsor. That is a good first step and would certainly be the most profitable part of the line. While I am very familiar with what is wrong with the Humboldt and norther Mendocino portion of the line, I am less familiar with the condition of the line from Windsor to Ukiah. I am fairly certian the work needed to get it up and running would be less costly than it would be to rebuild the line from Ukiah to Eureka. I think if they can turn a significant enough profit, we might might see rail service to Ukiah some day. Ukiah to Willits seems like it is in fairly decent shap, but I can not speak to that with much confidence. If the line made it to Willits, it could connect with the Califronia Northern, aka the skunk train'. Again, we have to ask 'why. There is not much in the way of products to move. Lumber is not what it used to be. I am enthusastic that the line has been running in the southern portion for almost 10 years. I think the line making it up to Ukiah would be nothing short of amazing. The line making it to Eureka, well....that would be one of the most unlikely miracles I have ever witnessed. The line through the Eel river canyon has always been a disaster. Even when it was running. It is not friendly geology, and rebuilding that section of track would require extensive environmental studies, permits, and then an incredible amount of construction in one of the most isolated regions in the country.
So, baby steps...lets hope the young NWP stays solvent and inches its way north.
Heavy Feather,
Thanks again for your response and input. As I have said before, the rebuilding of the Eel River Canyon line is entirely doable as is finding a permanent fix. But where would the money come from? It is partly an issue of money but even more so, politics.
No private company is likely to ever foot the bill which is what you're saying as well. However, the Train Riders Of California (TRAC) is fighting the removal of track from the canyon to build the trail. So there is at least someone out there who wants to preserve the rail option for some possible distant future purpose.
I spoke with a guy named Mike at TRAC on the telephone yesterday and he told me that the State isn't likely to pay for this either. There are quite simply too many other priorities. He threw out a number of about $1 billion to permanently fix the railroad but also mentioned that completing the trail would cost almost that much. A trail would also come with perhaps a million dollar a year maintenance price tag. So, what the heck?
Mike also thought that the annual maintenance costs of U.S. 101 are about the same as what the annual costs of the railroad would be. So, again, it's partly about politics and priorities here.
A good place to start is with the Humboldt & Eastern Railroad. Could it possibly be a method to spark the State in an action that would repair the old line instead? Or, is it just some kind of a money scheme to rip off investors? In any event, I have not been able to find anyone there who would return my e-mails.
I have been given the impression that the line south of Willits has now been transferred to SMART. You know, one thought I have is that what if legislation could be passed that would transfer the whole shebang to SMART? That might be a way out. The counties of Mendocino and Humboldt would presumably have to pass a matching tax. If the people up there are really serious about bringing rail back then maybe they would.
There might still be a most unlikely miracle as you said. Keep the faith!
You know, it's funny, there is another line in California that has been going through this same thing. That would be the San Diego & Arizona Eastern RR. It has a lot in common with the NWP Eureka line. Washouts, collapsed tunnels, rotted ties, etc, etc. There have been rumors for years that a rebuild is just around the corner but nothing ever seems to happen. Since the SPT Co disposed of the line around 1980, it's been reopend a couple of times only to wash out again or suffer a burned trestle or collapsed tunnel. (Sound familiar?)
But there is one problem that you DON'T have up there! The complication of crossing an international boundary line twice!
Once again, try and keep the faith. Someday you might no longer have to drive over to Redding to see a train! :)
FMC
Current conditions 2/8/19:
(1) Numerous trees across the line just south of Willits. (2) Crossing gate arms removed, except those used by California Western (3) Six foot shrubs and trees growing in the cribs between the rails. (4) New station at Cloverdale sits in the weeds. The small yard has succumbed to the weeds. (5) Somebody put a sign up at CA-120 in the ties and ballast section. Been there a while. (6) The bubbas left in charge of this part of the railroad are in for a rude shock if they ever try to reactivate. (Giant FRA 213 violation as it stands now.Weed sprayer would have stopped this, but the enviro-wackos would be up in arms. A ballast regulator would never make it over the line, hello Jordan Spreader.
HeavyFeather: I have been reading through this rather long thread on the NWP with some interest and enjoyed your posts.
QUestion: You mentioned the "....four GP-9s stuck in Eureka." I gather these are former NWP GP-9s that were stuck there after the line was washed out (almost 20-years ago?)? I have a book called California's Lumber Shortline Railroads and the chapter on the Eureka Southern / North Coast Rail Line/NWP shows a picture in there of five (5) quite derelict GP-9s sitting in Eureka in 2015. T
HeavyFeather Poppulation of the COunty is 137k. 25k in Eureka, and another 15k or so in Arcata. I agree...we dont need a rail here. but it would sure be nice. Whenever I leave the county, I am always excited to see trains. Oh, I forgot...we have four GP9's stuck in Eureka...they count, right?
Poppulation of the COunty is 137k. 25k in Eureka, and another 15k or so in Arcata.
I agree...we dont need a rail here. but it would sure be nice. Whenever I leave the county, I am always excited to see trains. Oh, I forgot...we have four GP9's stuck in Eureka...they count, right?
Yes, it would be nice to see the NWP restored and back into service all the way up to Eureka, but the exhorbitant cost to restore the line through the Eel River Canyon (or somewhere else away from the canyon) makes this highly unlikely. They could probably use a modest portion of the (continuing) cost-overruns on the California HSR project (maybe a loose $1B or so?) to fully fund restoration of the NWP line up to Eureka, California.
The "new port" concept at Fort Bragg sounds intriquing but far-fetched to say the least. The exodus of the last container-ship call in Portland, Oregon and the surplus capacity we have up here in Pacific NW ports doesn't seem like it would justify the enormous infrastructure investment required (new port in Ft. Bragg / new E-W rail line to the I-5 corridor) or be economically viable. Plus for all of the reasons noted in the posts here.
Thanks!
THOMAS A NOYES Yes, it would be nice to see the NWP restored and back into service all the way up to Eureka, but the exhorbitant cost to restore the line through the Eel River Canyon (or somewhere else away from the canyon) makes this highly unlikely. They could probably use a modest portion of the (continuing) cost-overruns on the California HSR project (maybe a loose $1B or so?) to fully fund restoration of the NWP line up to Eureka, California. The "new port" concept at Fort Bragg sounds intriquing but far-fetched to say the least. The exodus of the last container-ship call in Portland, Oregon and the surplus capacity we have up here in Pacific NW ports doesn't seem like it would justify the enormous infrastructure investment required (new port in Ft. Bragg / new E-W rail line to the I-5 corridor) or be economically viable. Plus for all of the reasons noted in the posts here. Thanks!
THOMAS A NOYES HeavyFeather: I have been reading through this rather long thread on the NWP with some interest and enjoyed your posts. QUestion: You mentioned the "....four GP-9s stuck in Eureka." I gather these are former NWP GP-9s that were stuck there after the line was washed out (almost 20-years ago?)? I have a book called California's Lumber Shortline Railroads and the chapter on the Eureka Southern / North Coast Rail Line/NWP shows a picture in there of five (5) quite derelict GP-9s sitting in Eureka in 2015. T
BRADNEY THOMAS Re: Your point (3) . In Portland, OR the Springwood Corridor Trail coexists happily with the Oregon Pacific Railroad. I have never heard of any problems.
Well, group, you know, I hope what I’m about to say isn’t going to offend anyone on here but my own personal, honest and humble opinion is that this whole idea of The Great Redwood Trail is beyond stupid. Many people are just effervescing with enthusiasm over it. It seems like I have seen online newspaper articles in just about every major town from San Francisco to Eureka that have printed glowing articles about “the greatest trail California has ever had and ITS READY TO GO!”
WHOA! Time out, please! May I please request a reality check here? First of all, no one has discussed costs with any degree of seriousness. We NWP fans know what some of the roadbed looks like in the Eel River Canyon. How much will it cost to fix this?
And here is another thing I have wondered about. Three hundred miles is a long, long way to ride a bicycle. Someone posted a Eureka Southern employee’s timetable on the Northwestern Pacific forum. It showed at least 140 rail miles from Willits to Eureka. For a cyclist traveling that distance, a start-to-stop average speed would probably not be much more than 10 or perhaps 12 miles an hour. So, that would take between 11-14 hours to do that. You have to be in great shape – this is not for the faint of heart.
Furthermore, there are no services back in there, no place to spend the night and a person would really feel all alone if they were to get into trouble back in there by falling down and breaking a leg or a shoulder. Disclosure: I am a devoted bike rider and a bicycle commuter. I also just LOVE rail trails (there’s one where I live near Goshen, IN). But I would not even consider considering traveling back into the Eel River Canyon alone.
So, one has to wonder just HOW many people will actually ever use this. Time will tell; I might be all wet. But here are two questions that beg to be asked: First of all how much more would it really cost to fix the rail line than what it will cost to build the trail? *AND* what would benefit the most people in the Humboldt Bay area, restored rail service or this trail? Those are questions that I am unable to answer but I think they need to be asked and given serious thought to.
I doubt that it's expected for anybody to hike the entire length of the trail even in a multiday outing. Consider the Appalachian Trail, the people who have hiked the entire length of the AT accomplished it over a number of years in multiple hikes.
Also, does the amount of potential traffic along the NWP justify the expense of rebuilding and maintaining the line? Realistic figures are in order, not wishful thinking.
CSSHEGEWISCH I doubt that it's expected for anybody to hike the entire length of the trail even in a multiday outing. Consider the Appalachian Trail, the people who have hiked the entire length of the AT accomplished it over a number of years in multiple hikes. Also, does the amount of potential traffic along the NWP justify the expense of rebuilding and maintaining the line? Realistic figures are in order, not wishful thinking.
Actually, many people hike the whole Appalachian Trail in one year; they are called thruhikers. Riding a bike 100 miles in a day isn't that hard. I've done it several times. It's called a "century". On basically flat railroad grade, it would be a piece of cake. If not, there's always camping to turn it into a 2-3 day event. I believe a trail in that area would be a huge success. It has outstanding scenery and is very accessible from San Francisco and Sacramento. Reading the H&E's website, it appears to be a 1 or 2 man operation. Nowhere do they give a background on the principals experience or background. A few of their statements appear to be incorrect or misleading. First is when they say how much quicker it is to Asia. Maybe to LAX and SFO, but not to Seattle and Vancouver. Those ports already have excess capacity and active infrastructure. I won't even get into the environmental impacts of building an east-west rail line in California. Just the land acquisition costs would be enormous.
There is no (as in ZERO) evidence of an abandonment docket at STB for anything north of Windsor, therefore no NITU/CITU or anything else. No rail trail north of Windsor to Eureka. Granted local politicians, trail advocates and CALtrans are not the brightest bulbs in the box with some of their statements, but it isn't even beyond pipedream stage yet. If and when an AB- docket appears, expect bunches of lawsuits from the nutcases at NARPO goading local landowners (including the Indian Nations) to further confuse the issue for years. (then there is the issue of a responsible* trail agency? ... trails people vanish quickly when liability and responsibility along with putting up serious $$$ comes to the front)
(*) The circus over the Monon trail murders at Delphi, IN has yet to play out. When the murders happened, it was not supposed to be a trail and the bridge was sitting on a licensed area for preservation, not trail purposes with CSX. (AB55-401 .... It's still in negotiation and not a rail-trail with CITU/NITU status yet. An agreement was supposedly reached 12/17/17 with CSX, but something has yet to follow through, probably $$$)
"Mudchicken",
Now THAT is a good point that hasn't been brought up yet. If I understand you correctly, no one has actually filed an application to the Surf Board to abandon the line. Is that right?
In other words, it's out of service and impassable but not legally "abandoned".
Correct. Embargoed-yes; Discontinuance of Service - possibly (Tied to the FRA Emergency Order #21 (death sentence from 1998 all the way to Arcata, partially released up to Windsor); Abandoned-no.
I'm not going to get too interested until something happens here. Everything said up to now is just blowing smoke. None of the entities involved can railroad.
Seems to be over the heads of most of the talking heads on this issue. The arrogant stupidity on both sides is saving the railroad.
mudchicken <SNIP> I'm not going to get too interested until something happens here. Everything said up to now is just blowing smoke. None of the entities involved can railroad.
<SNIP>
Yeah, right? What do politicians responsible for our government know about railroads? What does Governor Newsom know about railroads in general or in the ex-NWP line specifically?
He talks out of both sides of his mouth. He said he cancelled the the HSR line because the costs were getting out of line and would take too long. Then in another breath he told another group that he is still committed to the project. Huh?
Back in November, shortly after the election, he also told a group of local business leaders up in the Humboldt Bay area that he was committed to bringing rail service back to the Humboldt Bay. Huh? I guess the moon is made out of green cheese and is entirely edible and he can deliver it on a silver platter.
Fred, if you live near Goshen, IN, why are you so passionate about this subject?
Backshop Fred, if you live near Goshen, IN, why are you so passionate about this subject?
Group,
One more thing I'd like to say about this and then I'll shut up. In an earlier post I'd said that Newsom "told a group of local business leaders up in the Humboldt Bay area that he was committed to bringing rail service back to the Humboldt Bay" but I didn't cite a source for that.
So, I went back and tried to find where I'd seen that. O.K., so I might've worded that better. He didn't exactly say that word for word but that was kind of the point of the article. It seemed to come more from Caltrans than from his lips but I suspect but cannot prove that's where it might've originated. The same article also discussed the "planned" Humboldt & Eastern RR at length. At any rate, here is the gist of the article:
https://www.times-standard.com/2018/11/25/rail-industry-gets-qualified-support-from-governors-office-caltrans/
But in the end, the article probably raises more questions that it addresses.
I've always been fascinated by this line and have a local connection because the Great Western railroad in Loveland, Colorado, near my home, rehabbed a couple of SD-9s and painted them in NWP colors. But then the money never showed, and the GW kept the units around. So sometimes I would see an NWP unit switching in Loveland! I think GW may still have one of them around.I got curious about the stranded units and "Google flew" over the line. I found this view that shows the units pretty clearly in Eureka:
https://goo.gl/maps/NafLwCMYS5F2
Sadly, you can see a crane that looks like it was about to take apart one of the units. And when you view the location with the street view from the adjacent street, there is nothing there anymore. :(
https://goo.gl/maps/KJF7XCnsYpN2
An older version of the same view from 2007 does show the units:
https://goo.gl/maps/6fwVmHAfqfH2
HeavyFeather: Thanks for the updated information here. Yes, (ex) SP #3190 was a torpedo-tube (passenger) GP-9 that was in commute service on the SF Peninsula. I did not know that it hauled President Eisenhower around. It should have a better fate (preservation?) than rusting away in a deadline in Eureka. Is BUGX a local (locomotive) leasing firm in the Eureka / Northern California area? Never heard of them.
Interesting also that you mentioned the (ex) CCT #70 (GP-7?). I think I recall seeing it in the deadline in Willitts back in the summer of 1992 (?) when it was being used (owned?) by the North Coast RR there (?). I think there was also an old CCT Alco RS-1 stored there too at the time.
Thanks again for the follow-up. This has been a most interesting, and wide-ranging thread, about the old NWP line to Eureka, CA.
As I had harped about earlier on this thread, I had sent a number of e-mails to the Humboldt & Eastern (HERR) promoters, all of which went unanswered. Well, guess what? Someone finally got back to me and sent me some materials on the plan. It doesn't sound quite as ludicrous and impossible as I'd once believed. I kinda thought it was a hopeless, pie-in-the-sky scam to rip people off. I have now had to reassess those thoughts.
I now think these people are sincere and believe in what they're doing. Can they actually pull this thing off? I honestly believe that NO ONE on this forum least of all myself knows the answer to that. I have shared some of my opinions and others on our forum had some negative opinions (their skepticism was justified) but at the end of the day those are only OPINIONS because we really don't know.
But, I will say this: It is going to be very, very interesting to watch and see how this whole thing plays out. Will it just kind of slowly die with a whimper and be completely forgotten in a year or two? Will they really try and go ahead with it only to be slammed with so much litigation that they cannot proceed? Will they get a green signal from the "Surf Board", begin construction only to be stopped again? Or, will they change their minds and rebuild the NWP line to Cloverdale afterall?
All of our opinions aside, any of the above scenarios IS possible. So we will simply have to sit back, watch and see. I don't know what I'm gonna do yet. I might just buy a share in this thing for Kicks and Cheerios with the realization that it will be an extremely high risk investment. But there is the excitement of actually taking part in a real railroad building scheme. Ha~! And I thought I was born too late for that!
Fred,
Will die without a whimper. No demand now or in future, and high investment even without double track and electrification.
Mac
PNWRMNM Fred, Will die without a whimper. No demand now or in future, and high investment even without double track and electrification. Mac
BOB WITHORNStill not a reason in the world to ever do this, but I suppose some will have fun dreaming.
Bob,
O.K. I gotchya. Point taken.
I realize now that you have completely reviewed the packet of materials that was sent by the H&E proposal and completely read the entire 120+ page Humboldt Bay Maritime Industrial Use Market Study Final Report from 2018 and concluded that this is only a wild dream.
That being the case, I guess I have to regard your conclusions as being wise, prudent and rock solid. It would be most wise for me if I should consider your conclusions before I invest in this.
Best regards,
SO yesterday, the Russian River Crested at something like 14' above flood stage. Eel River at Fernbridge was cresting at 20' over flood? I explored a very small portion of the line 2 summers ago. It is not in good state. what are the odds that any of it is left beyond the bridges? And to be clear, this section of the coast range is considered to be the most unstable in at least all of the United States. it is quite literally the worst place to build a railroad.
Y
YoHo1975SO yesterday, the Russian River Crested at something like 14' above flood stage. Eel River at Fernbridge was cresting at 20' over flood? I explored a very small portion of the line 2 summers ago. It is not in good stage. what are the odds that any of it is left beyond the bridges? And to be clear, this section of the coast range is considered to be the most unstable in at least all of the United States. it is quite literally the worst place to build a railroad.
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