BaltACD Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew. Until we know the signal indications they were seeing we cannot make that assessment. If the following train was operating with both PTC and ATC inoperative, why was it permitted by a control point into a track segment that was occupied by a train? Those two questions involve two different crafts - the answer to those questions need to be ascertained before we go attacking the following train's crew.
Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew.
Until we know the signal indications they were seeing we cannot make that assessment.
If the following train was operating with both PTC and ATC inoperative, why was it permitted by a control point into a track segment that was occupied by a train?
Those two questions involve two different crafts - the answer to those questions need to be ascertained before we go attacking the following train's crew.
Generally, they can be a 'tool' in certain times of the day, early AM or at Dusk; to take the 'edge' off of someone who has been at their task for a long period of work.
As I had mentioned, I was previously, aware that in some areas the 'radio chatter' could be used to exchange work informaton, and at times 'gossip', and have a limitied ability to relieve some 'stress'.
An incident such as this one on the UPRR is very hard on all who either knew, or worked with the crewmen who were involved. Some time back, there was a UPRR incident(2012) in western OKlahoma[Panhandle], that had an effect on a lot of the 'UPRR Family' in this area. In about 2016(?) there was a BNSF wreck that killed three on-board crew on the Avard sub. One only has to be human to understand that the loss of friends and coworkers has effects, up and down the employment ladder. It is up to the trained investigators to afix the cause or blame?
At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up. It is dark and most likely the crew has been awake since early morning. Our prayers go out to the victims. This railroading is a dangerous business.
Some chatter more than others, more often when meeting trains. Some will talk to others in the same direction to let them know they may be stopping. Especially if one is a train that needs plenty of advance planning to stay off crossings. Many of us r,print out an on-duty train list and board line-ups so we have an idea of who's where and what's coming at us. Just listening to the radio, either train to train or dispatcher to train, can give one an idea of what's going on.
This line also has wayside signals, so even if the engine didn't have PTC or it failed, and the cab signals had failed, there were still waysides. Some old heads didn't care for all the radio chatter and would say, "You have signals, just follow them."
Dispatchers don't always have the time (some don't have the inclination) to tell trains what's coming up ahead of them.
Jeff
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Some question come to mind that the NTSB will be asking.
1. Was the PTC operating on that section on track since its PTC equipped?
2. Was the >PTC working on the lead locomotive at the ime of the accident.?
2. Were the signals working in the direction of travel for the track on which the trains were running?
3. What was the speed of the train that impacted the stopped train?
4. What was the signal indication for the signal behind the stopped train?
5. If the signal was red, and the PTC was workingon the lead locomotive, why di'nt it stop the train before impact?
6. Do toxicology tests on the engineer and conductor show any indication od frug of achohol use?
samfp1943A.)Is there no radio communication [direct or in-direct] between train crews ?
There is, but its informal as you described. Plus if two crews are just talking that doesn't necessarily give any information on where they are and just hearing two crews talking means the trains are within 5-25 miles of each other.
samfp19432.) Would not train crews operating trains in close proximity, be aware that there might be a train 'trailing their's' seperated by distance, or time(?).
Its the UP's E-W main route. It probably has over two trains an hour, so you can pretty much know there is always somebody ahead of or behind you. Its also not the leading train's problem to look out for following trains, its the following trains that are looking out for the trains ahead (using signal indications).
samfp1943Does not the Dispatch Desk not have a way of identifying 'Block Occupancy' of a District?
Sure, its CTC so the dispatcher has a visual display of where the trains are, that is which block they are in, a block can be 1-10 miles long, so they know the train is somewhere in that block. The dispatching system can fleet the trains one after another across the railroad and the signal system displays the appropriate signals.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BaltACD The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. "The question becomes why."
The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. "The question becomes why."
A couple of questions come to mind: Even in this time when there is PTC and In-cab signals;
A.)Is there no radio communication [direct or in-direct] between train crews ?
When I was in an area of Memphis,Tn. (primarily ICRR, pre-CNR ownership) There was some 'light conversation' between cab crews, mostly, it was referenced to engineer's nick-names.
2.) Would not train crews operating trains in close proximity, be aware that there might be a train 'trailing their's' seperated by distance, or time(?).
It would seem to be particularly useful, if the leading train suffered some sort of an 'emergency stop'; such an event, as what happened there, in Wyoming, or others that have been reported in this Forum's Threads.
It would seem to be adjunct function to the 'situational awareness' of operations in an arera. Does not the Dispatch Desk not have a way of identifying 'Block Occupancy' of a District?
Thanks!
The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. The question becomes why.
There's nothing I can say or do to ease the pain and sorrow caused by the two fatalities. May the two crewmembers rest in eternal peace and may those they left behind find the strength and comfort they need to go on.
It will be interesting (there is no point to any speculation here) to find out, if possible, how this happened on a PTC/cab singnal equipped line.
Holy crap I have seen the pictures of a multiple vechile MVA before and dang near puked. This however looks like a 2K lb Mk 84 bomb blew up in that wreckage. The only I pray is that crewmember that died did not feel anything when he passed. I am also praying that the other one the MIA one is still alive but from the looks of the wreckage I have my doubts.
The line has PTC and cab signals. For now trains run either PTC or cab signals, but not both at the same time. I've heard that neither system was in use on the moving train.
For the time being, if an engine isn't equipped for PTC it can still lead in PTC territory. In cab signal territory the leader has to be cab signal equipped. If an engine has working PTC, they will use PTC and shut off the cab signals. If it doesn't have PTC or it fails, then they run on cab signals. If the cab signal fails, then they run with an absolute block ahead of them.
Is PTC not yet active on this line segment?
BaltACD Is it dark at 7:45 PM local time there?
Is it dark at 7:45 PM local time there?
Johnny
Causes? Dispatcher? Engineer? Signal failure? Equipment?
Rear-end crashes aren't often fatal, but this one appears to have occured at a fairly high rate of speed (given the number of cars that derailed). After looking up the sunset times for Cheyenne, it was either twilight or dark at the time this crash happened.
Tragic news.
Hope for the missing man to be found alive, thoughts and prayers for the dead man's family.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Yesterday, one UP train ran into the rear end of another stopped train west of Cheyenne. One dead, one missing.
https://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/one-dead-one-missing-after-train-crash-west-of-cheyenne/article_52b6fe25-f169-590e-9e23-779d546615e6.html
https://kdvr.com/2018/10/05/one-dead-one-missing-after-catastrophic-wyoming-train-crash/
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