Yesterday, one UP train ran into the rear end of another stopped train west of Cheyenne. One dead, one missing.
https://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/one-dead-one-missing-after-train-crash-west-of-cheyenne/article_52b6fe25-f169-590e-9e23-779d546615e6.html
https://kdvr.com/2018/10/05/one-dead-one-missing-after-catastrophic-wyoming-train-crash/
Jeff
Tragic news.
Hope for the missing man to be found alive, thoughts and prayers for the dead man's family.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Is it dark at 7:45 PM local time there?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Rear-end crashes aren't often fatal, but this one appears to have occured at a fairly high rate of speed (given the number of cars that derailed). After looking up the sunset times for Cheyenne, it was either twilight or dark at the time this crash happened.
Causes? Dispatcher? Engineer? Signal failure? Equipment?
BaltACD Is it dark at 7:45 PM local time there?
Johnny
Is PTC not yet active on this line segment?
The line has PTC and cab signals. For now trains run either PTC or cab signals, but not both at the same time. I've heard that neither system was in use on the moving train.
For the time being, if an engine isn't equipped for PTC it can still lead in PTC territory. In cab signal territory the leader has to be cab signal equipped. If an engine has working PTC, they will use PTC and shut off the cab signals. If it doesn't have PTC or it fails, then they run on cab signals. If the cab signal fails, then they run with an absolute block ahead of them.
Holy crap I have seen the pictures of a multiple vechile MVA before and dang near puked. This however looks like a 2K lb Mk 84 bomb blew up in that wreckage. The only I pray is that crewmember that died did not feel anything when he passed. I am also praying that the other one the MIA one is still alive but from the looks of the wreckage I have my doubts.
There's nothing I can say or do to ease the pain and sorrow caused by the two fatalities. May the two crewmembers rest in eternal peace and may those they left behind find the strength and comfort they need to go on.
It will be interesting (there is no point to any speculation here) to find out, if possible, how this happened on a PTC/cab singnal equipped line.
The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. The question becomes why.
BaltACD The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. "The question becomes why."
The views of the impact and damages would leave one to believe that the striking train was operating at or near the maximum allowed track speed. "The question becomes why."
A couple of questions come to mind: Even in this time when there is PTC and In-cab signals;
A.)Is there no radio communication [direct or in-direct] between train crews ?
When I was in an area of Memphis,Tn. (primarily ICRR, pre-CNR ownership) There was some 'light conversation' between cab crews, mostly, it was referenced to engineer's nick-names.
2.) Would not train crews operating trains in close proximity, be aware that there might be a train 'trailing their's' seperated by distance, or time(?).
It would seem to be particularly useful, if the leading train suffered some sort of an 'emergency stop'; such an event, as what happened there, in Wyoming, or others that have been reported in this Forum's Threads.
It would seem to be adjunct function to the 'situational awareness' of operations in an arera. Does not the Dispatch Desk not have a way of identifying 'Block Occupancy' of a District?
Thanks!
samfp1943A.)Is there no radio communication [direct or in-direct] between train crews ?
There is, but its informal as you described. Plus if two crews are just talking that doesn't necessarily give any information on where they are and just hearing two crews talking means the trains are within 5-25 miles of each other.
samfp19432.) Would not train crews operating trains in close proximity, be aware that there might be a train 'trailing their's' seperated by distance, or time(?).
Its the UP's E-W main route. It probably has over two trains an hour, so you can pretty much know there is always somebody ahead of or behind you. Its also not the leading train's problem to look out for following trains, its the following trains that are looking out for the trains ahead (using signal indications).
samfp1943Does not the Dispatch Desk not have a way of identifying 'Block Occupancy' of a District?
Sure, its CTC so the dispatcher has a visual display of where the trains are, that is which block they are in, a block can be 1-10 miles long, so they know the train is somewhere in that block. The dispatching system can fleet the trains one after another across the railroad and the signal system displays the appropriate signals.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Some question come to mind that the NTSB will be asking.
1. Was the PTC operating on that section on track since its PTC equipped?
2. Was the >PTC working on the lead locomotive at the ime of the accident.?
2. Were the signals working in the direction of travel for the track on which the trains were running?
3. What was the speed of the train that impacted the stopped train?
4. What was the signal indication for the signal behind the stopped train?
5. If the signal was red, and the PTC was workingon the lead locomotive, why di'nt it stop the train before impact?
6. Do toxicology tests on the engineer and conductor show any indication od frug of achohol use?
Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew.
Until we know the signal indications they were seeing we cannot make that assessment.
If the following train was operating with both PTC and ATC inoperative, why was it permitted by a control point into a track segment that was occupied by a train?
Those two questions involve two different crafts - the answer to those questions need to be ascertained before we go attacking the following train's crew.
Some chatter more than others, more often when meeting trains. Some will talk to others in the same direction to let them know they may be stopping. Especially if one is a train that needs plenty of advance planning to stay off crossings. Many of us r,print out an on-duty train list and board line-ups so we have an idea of who's where and what's coming at us. Just listening to the radio, either train to train or dispatcher to train, can give one an idea of what's going on.
This line also has wayside signals, so even if the engine didn't have PTC or it failed, and the cab signals had failed, there were still waysides. Some old heads didn't care for all the radio chatter and would say, "You have signals, just follow them."
Dispatchers don't always have the time (some don't have the inclination) to tell trains what's coming up ahead of them.
At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up. It is dark and most likely the crew has been awake since early morning. Our prayers go out to the victims. This railroading is a dangerous business.
BaltACD Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew. Until we know the signal indications they were seeing we cannot make that assessment. If the following train was operating with both PTC and ATC inoperative, why was it permitted by a control point into a track segment that was occupied by a train? Those two questions involve two different crafts - the answer to those questions need to be ascertained before we go attacking the following train's crew.
Generally, they can be a 'tool' in certain times of the day, early AM or at Dusk; to take the 'edge' off of someone who has been at their task for a long period of work.
As I had mentioned, I was previously, aware that in some areas the 'radio chatter' could be used to exchange work informaton, and at times 'gossip', and have a limitied ability to relieve some 'stress'.
An incident such as this one on the UPRR is very hard on all who either knew, or worked with the crewmen who were involved. Some time back, there was a UPRR incident(2012) in western OKlahoma[Panhandle], that had an effect on a lot of the 'UPRR Family' in this area. In about 2016(?) there was a BNSF wreck that killed three on-board crew on the Avard sub. One only has to be human to understand that the loss of friends and coworkers has effects, up and down the employment ladder. It is up to the trained investigators to afix the cause or blame?
Does UP train crews "call signals" on the radio?
The one report indicated the crew of the stopped train had left their locomotive...if correct, they were aware of something bad was about to occur.
Ed
MP173Does UP train crews "call signals" on the radio? The one report indicated the crew of the stopped train had left their locomotive...if correct, they were aware of something bad was about to occur. Ed
How long was the lead train? Somewhere I heard that the combined trains amounted to 362 cars.
The safest place for the crew of the lead train is staying on the locomotives - all that steel around them provides much more protection than their work clothes and boots. Or had the crew of the lead train been removed from the train that was still waiting for track(s) or crew for it's ultimate handling. Cheyenne is one of UP's major terminals isn't it?
petitnj At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up.
At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up.
Not true. Cab signals have to be acknowledged. If they are not a penalty brake application will occur. PTC will automatically stop the train ”before“ passing a red absolute signal. At a red intermediate signal PTC will enforce restricted speed. You must be below 16mph to enter a restricted speed block and braking enforcement happens at 21mph.
The answers to those questions could also absolve the crew. It just depends.
BaltACD Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew......
Immediately, we have cast guilt on the following train's crew......
BaltACD The safest place for the crew of the lead train is staying on the locomotives - all that steel around them provides much more protection than their work clothes and boots. Or had the crew of the lead train been removed from the train that was still waiting for track(s) or crew for it's ultimate handling. Cheyenne is one of UP's major terminals isn't it?
1. If you’re about to be rear-ended the slack run-in could be severe. If you’re stopped it would be best to get off of the locomotive and move to safe location, that is only if you have been warned in advance.
2. “All that steel” can be bent, torn, and mashed in an accident.
3. Cheyenne isn’t considered a “major” terminal.
UPENG95 petitnj At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up. Not true. Cab signals have to be acknowledged. If they are not a penalty brake application will occur. PTC will automatically stop the train ”before“ passing a red absolute signal. At a red intermediate signal PTC will enforce restricted speed. You must be below 16mph to enter a restricted speed block and braking enforcement happens at 21mph.
And when both systems are 'cut out', nothing happens.
UPENG95 petitnj At track speed, if the moving crew fell asleep, there is nothing to stop them from hitting the train ahead. They missed cab signals, wayside signals, and any PTC warnings that might have cropped up. Not true. Cab signals have to be acknowledge. If they are not a penalty brake application will happen. PTC will automatically stop the train ”before“ passing a red absolute signal. At a red intermediate signal PTC will enforce restricted speed. You must be below 16mph to enter a restricted speed block and braking enforcement happens at 21mph.
Not true. Cab signals have to be acknowledge. If they are not a penalty brake application will happen. PTC will automatically stop the train ”before“ passing a red absolute signal. At a red intermediate signal PTC will enforce restricted speed. You must be below 16mph to enter a restricted speed block and braking enforcement happens at 21mph.
From what a local manager said, the train - for whatever reason - didn't have either system active. Just running on wayside block signal indications. In that event, UP usually requires an absolute block in advance of movement, even with wayside signals. (With an inoperative cab signal the rules allow running on wayside indications without an absolute block, not exceeding 40mph. But they don't like to run that way.)
Simply put, it's going to come down to either a failure of the crew or the signal system. Even if there was some contributing mechanical issue that the crew failed to catch until it was too late, the official blame will still fall on the crew.
Jeff, you gave me a little more information concerning my last trip through Denver. We detoured because of a forest fire somewhere between Denver and Salt Lake. It took some time to arrange the detour, including calling UP pilots. I thought we would have a UP engine--but I did not see one on the point during daylight hours. We crept up to Utah Junction and then over to the Denver Pacific. Our progress to Borie was sporadic, but from there on we moved steadily (I went to sleep about Laramie and woke a little above Salt Lake City. We may have had a UP engine put on somewhere west of Laramie, for it took a little less than 12 hours from Borie (I make it to be a about 508 miles from Borie to SLC). I think we changed crews in Green River--that is where the changes were made when the detour was planned in advance.
This was on 13-14 September.
At what point does an engine crew decide to just jump out of a moving locomotive as that seems to be the least awful of the only 2 options available?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding At what point does an engine crew decide to just jump out of a moving locomotive as that seems to be the least awful of the only 2 options available?
Jumping has been a common practice, especially with steam locomotives because the crew riding in the articulation between the engine and tender are highly vulnerable to being crushed; and also vulnerable to being trapped and scalded to death by steam escaping from broken pipes and components. So with steam, especially if the speed is relatively low, it is easy to choose jumping. There is an historical account of a fireman stepping off of a locomotive in Colorado at around 80 mph and surviving, while others stayed in the cab and were killed.
Jumping has also been common in this diesel era. I know of three wrecks on the C&NW in Minnesota where the crewmembers jumped short of a collision. In two of them, they survived with minor injuries. In two of those cases, damage to the cab indicated that they would have been relatively uninjured if they had stayed in the cab. In one of the three wrecks, the one member of the head end crew jumped short of a head on collision. It was in deep snow and he jumped, but landed rather close to the train, in the snow cut made by passing trains. He slid down the side of the snow cut and under the train, and was killed.
Regarding how jumping might have applied to the U.P. train, I have never head of a head end crew jumping off of the engine in anticipation of being hit from behind by a following train. Does anyone know of such a case? It probably has happened, especially if the struck train was very short.
The body of the missing crew member was recovered on Saturday.
EuclidI have never head of a head end crew jumping off of the engine in anticipation of being hit from behind by a following train.
How would the head end crew even know they were going to be hit?
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