So you are standing trackside about 150 feet from a railroad car that is rocking back and forth and flips over as the the train is doing 20 mph. Or you are in your car at a grade crossiing and the train derails and starts acrordiinging. you think you are far enough away but out of nowhere a railroad wheel flys at you and crushes you and your car and you are at St Peters gate wondering what just happened. The picture of the 1000lb wheel set indented in the side of the Hopper car gives you a idea of what damage flying debris from derailing railroad cars can do. If highway trucks had the same setup the USDOT would have put a end to it years ago.
CandOforProgress2So you are standing trackside about 150 feet from a railroad car that is rocking back and forth and flips over as the the train is doing 20 mph. Or you are in your car at a grade crossiing and the train derails and starts acrordiinging. you think you are far enough away but out of nowhere a railroad wheel flys at you and crushes you and your car and you are at St Peters gate wondering what just happened. The picture of the 1000lb wheel set indented in the side of the Hopper car gives you a idea of what damage flying debris from derailing railroad cars can do. If highway trucks had the same setup the USDOT would have put a end to it years ago.
And then there was the dinosaur munching away on vegatation in what is now South Carolina when WHAM 6 cubic miles of 'space junk' slams into the Earth - poof you and all your kind are dead or dying.
Gravity always wins.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If you want I can post pictures of what happens when some skateboarder aka Flatbed truckers lost their bets on securement with things like steel coils or just google them. There is a reason why a coil of steel with the eye to the side of the trailer is called suicide style. If that sucker breaks free under braking well they blot the driver up off the coil itself after it goes thru the cab of the truck. This will give you an idea what can happen when 40K plus pounds of steel breaks free and why the regulations for securing it require 3 times the weight of the load in strength at the federal level and most carriers require 5 times. https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=963&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=EkBbW4rKKp29jgTq6rTQDA&q=steel+coil+truck+accidents&oq=steel+coil+accidents&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i8i30k1.57045.58515.0.60814.5.5.0.0.0.0.107.456.4j1.5.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.5.455...0i7i30k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.-fjnRefJpAg
CandOforprogress2 So you are standing trackside about 150 feet from a railroad car that is rocking back and forth and flips over as the the train is doing 20 mph. Or you are in your car at a grade crossiing and the train derails and starts acrordiinging. you think you are far enough away but out of nowhere a railroad wheel flys at you and crushes you and your car and you are at St Peters gate wondering what just happened. The picture of the 1000lb wheel set indented in the side of the Hopper car gives you a idea of what damage flying debris from derailing railroad cars can do. If highway trucks had the same setup the USDOT would have put a end to it years ago.
While focusing on the very small possibility that the wheels might flatten you, you seem to have overlooked the fact that the whole darn train that is derailing is also headed your way.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Shadow the Cats ownerIf you want I can post pictures of what happens when some skateboarder aka Flatbed truckers lost their bets on securement with things like steel coils
The years fog the exact memory, but I saw something to that effect on the 401 in Ontario. I think there may have been a rear-end collision involved, but there was no livable space in the COE tractor.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Shadow the Cats ownerIf you want I can post pictures of what happens when some skateboarder aka Flatbed truckers lost their bets on securement with things like steel coils or just google them. There is a reason why a coil of steel with the eye to the side of the trailer is called suicide style. If that sucker breaks free under braking well they blot the driver up off the coil itself after it goes thru the cab of the truck. This will give you an idea what can happen when 40K plus pounds of steel breaks free and why the regulations for securing it require 3 times the weight of the load in strength at the federal level and most carriers require 5 times. https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=963&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=EkBbW4rKKp29jgTq6rTQDA&q=steel+coil+truck+accidents&oq=steel+coil+accidents&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i8i30k1.57045.58515.0.60814.5.5.0.0.0.0.107.456.4j1.5.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.5.455...0i7i30k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.-fjnRefJpAg
A 5G crash impact would be very mild. Considering that vehicle crashes are able to generate impacts of 40G - 60G - 100G. Securing the load at 5 times its weight still seems reckless.
(Shoulda seen what steel coil did to an ATSF long nose SD40-2 at Pittsburg, CA in 1992 ...came out of that with no nose and severed one of the collision posts....the coil then ran out in the swamp.)
Once the railcar/locomotive. derails and rolls, I'd rather have it coming apart like a race car and dissapating the force of the derailment \ The Kingpin and truck bearing plate are pretty beefy critters by design.
Why are truckers using flatbeds to haul steel rolls?
Railroads tended to use Coil Gons - both covered and uncovered for such loading
BaltACDWhy are truckers using flatbeds to haul steel rolls?
BaltACDRailroads tended to use Coil Gons - both covered and uncovered for such loading
tree68 BaltACD Why are truckers using flatbeds to haul steel rolls? Because the railroads don't go there any more?
BaltACD Why are truckers using flatbeds to haul steel rolls?
Because the railroads don't go there any more?
Why don't truckers use 'trough' style trailers with structural pockets for the coiled steel. Using structural elements of the trailer to hold the load in place in addition to the commonly used tie downs
BaltACDWhy don't truckers use 'trough' style trailers with structural pockets for the coiled steel. Using structural elements of the trailer to hold the load in place in addition to the commonly used tie downs
Railroad coil cars are essentially in captive service - take a load from the mill to the user (usually the same one), then head back empty for another load.
I see this on the Deshler cam all the time. For the most part, it's how railroads operate.
If coils are a regular load for a particular hauler, then a specialized trailer makes sense. Otherwise, they can use that now-empty flatbed for whatever load makes itself available.
Maybe Shadow can shed some light on the question.
It's actually gone the other way. Freight car trucks used to have keepers to keep the wheelsets in the sideframe. Requirment was dropped in the 1970s because the things caused more trouble than they were worth. It was a bit before my time, so I don't have the specifics....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIt's actually gone the other way. Freight car trucks used to have keepers to keep the wheelsets in the sideframe. Requirment was dropped in the 1970s because the things caused more trouble than they were worth. It was a bit before my time, so I don't have the specifics....
It isn't just railroad cars that use gravity as the primary force to keep things together. Check out bridges the next time you get close - wiht the expansion and contraction of temperature changes it is difficult to 'nail it down'.
When extreme forces get applied, even gravity can be defeated.
Or check out battleship wrecks like the Bismarck, the bottom of Scapa Flow, etc.
Large caliber gun turrets in many of the world's navies weren't actually secured and just depended on the weight of the turret to keep it in place.
tree68 BaltACD Why don't truckers use 'trough' style trailers with structural pockets for the coiled steel. Using structural elements of the trailer to hold the load in place in addition to the commonly used tie downs I'm totally guessing here - maybe they don't want to have such specialized equipment? Railroad coil cars are essentially in captive service - take a load from the mill to the user (usually the same one), then head back empty for another load. I see this on the Deshler cam all the time. For the most part, it's how railroads operate. If coils are a regular load for a particular hauler, then a specialized trailer makes sense. Otherwise, they can use that now-empty flatbed for whatever load makes itself available. Maybe Shadow can shed some light on the question.
BaltACD Why don't truckers use 'trough' style trailers with structural pockets for the coiled steel. Using structural elements of the trailer to hold the load in place in addition to the commonly used tie downs
I'm totally guessing here - maybe they don't want to have such specialized equipment?
Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers ? Thought the wheels were attached to trucka and the trucks were attached to car ?
blue streak 1 Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers ? Thought the wheels were attached to trucka and the trucks were attached to car ?
Dunno - I do recall seeing chains attached to the truck frames and the body of tenders, though.
tree68 blue streak 1 Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers? Thought the wheels were attached to trucks and the trucks were attached to car? Dunno - I do recall seeing chains attached to the truck frames and the body of tenders, though.
blue streak 1 Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers? Thought the wheels were attached to trucks and the trucks were attached to car?
Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers? Thought the wheels were attached to trucks and the trucks were attached to car?
Overmod tree68 blue streak 1 Can some one tell us if passenger cars do have keepers? Thought the wheels were attached to trucks and the trucks were attached to car? Dunno - I do recall seeing chains attached to the truck frames and the body of tenders, though. There is little point putting 'keepers' on the bearing seats of three-piece freight trucks, as there's very little structure to keep the truck together in even relatively gentle derailments. You have two sideframes located to the bolster by little more than wedges, which is one reason there's little purpose to putting locking kingpins or other positive attachment between bolster and car underframe. Passenger trucks usually have more positive location of the axles (in pedestals, on older designs, and via struts, rods, and other low-mass methods in more modern types). These usually have locking kingpins to secure the truck frame to the car; I believe current Amtrak standards specify them. The locking pins do most of the job that chains would do. Yes, many tenders had chains securing their trucks. We had a discussion a while back about diesel locomotives having chains.
My understanding is that tender trucks were chained to limit their pivot and their separation from the frame in case of a derailment. The point was to keep them generally in their nomal location and generally aligned with the track, which would help protect the crew by limiting the violence of tender-to-engine movment during a derailment.
It had nothing to do with protecting bystanders from loose parts becoming projectiles during a wreck, which appears to be the premise of the O.P.
The trucks have been held together by gravity since day one, give or take. So, why is it a problem now? Derailments tend to take place in locations with a paucity of bystanders. IMO, the number of injuries/fatalities from loose wheelsets is quite low.
rrnut282 The trucks have been held together by gravity since day one, give or take. So, why is it a problem now? Derailments tend to take place in locations with a paucity of bystanders. IMO, the number of injuries/fatalities from loose wheelsets is quite low.
And when a derailment inevitably will occur in an urban or suburban location? The maintenance on flat wheels is pretty remiss. What then, empty slogans like "thoughts and prayers?"
charlie hebdoAnd when a derailment inevitably will occur in an urban or suburban location? The maintenance on flat wheels is pretty remiss. What then, empty slogans like "thoughts and prayers?"
Do the trucks go much farther than the rest of the car? Is this really a problem? Anyone have any real documentation?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Boy is ChumpCharlie in for a shock when he finds out how Hayes/Buda/Nolan track bumping posts are designed (not wheel stops - different principle)...
charlie hebdo rrnut282 The trucks have been held together by gravity since day one, give or take. So, why is it a problem now? Derailments tend to take place in locations with a paucity of bystanders. IMO, the number of injuries/fatalities from loose wheelsets is quite low. And when a derailment inevitably will occur in an urban or suburban location? The maintenance on flat wheels is pretty remiss. What then, empty slogans like "thoughts and prayers?"
The Class 1's have been using Wheel Impact Detectors for the past decade. These detectors measure the impact of 'flat' wheels upon the track structure. The measurements created a record for the car in one of 5 catagories.
1. No Defect2. Measurable impact - flag is set on cars record for continuing follow up3. Increased level of impact - additional flag is set on car's record - if car is shopped for other reasons - change indicated wheel set(s)4. Higher level of impact - train containing car is to immediately reduce speed to 30 MPH, car can continue in train at 30 MPH to destination and then be shopped to replace wheel set(s).5. Very High Impact - STOP train immediately, Have crew inspect car, IF safe to continue - do so at 10 MPH and set car off in first available location. IF not safe, Car Dept. will be dispatched to change wheel set(s) immediately
Thoughts and Prayers are for Charlie Hebdo's remiss operation.
In the same vein, CN is starting to use temperature detectors at the bottom of long descending grades to find cars with bad order air brakes. I can't remember if this is a modification of existing Hot Box Detectors, or a standalone installation.
Have the American railroads been doing this too?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Different versions, but yes. (some of the older technology has been moved out on the flatlands near major yards where not quite released handbrakes are an issue)
duplicate
BaltACD charlie hebdo rrnut282 The trucks have been held together by gravity since day one, give or take. So, why is it a problem now? Derailments tend to take place in locations with a paucity of bystanders. IMO, the number of injuries/fatalities from loose wheelsets is quite low. And when a derailment inevitably will occur in an urban or suburban location? The maintenance on flat wheels is pretty remiss. What then, empty slogans like "thoughts and prayers?" The Class 1's have been using Wheel Impact Detectors for the past decade. These detectors measure the impact of 'flat' wheels upon the track structure. The measurements created a record for the car in one of 5 catagories. 1. No Defect2. Measurable impact - flag is set on cars record for continuing follow up3. Increased level of impact - additional flag is set on car's record - if car is shopped for other reasons - change indicated wheel set(s)4. Higher level of impact - train containing car is to immediately reduce speed to 30 MPH, car can continue in train at 30 MPH to destination and then be shopped to replace wheel set(s).5. Very High Impact - STOP train immediately, Have crew inspect car, IF safe to continue - do so at 10 MPH and set car off in first available location. IF not safe, Car Dept. will be dispatched to change wheel set(s) immediately Thoughts and Prayers are for Charlie Hebdo's remiss operation.
I know what I hear. It's obvious to any bystander (need not be an 'expert' railroader for this one) with reasonably decent hearing. For two good reasons, it would not be obvious to the engine crew at all.
So does the Master of the Empty Slogan, i.e., the Cliche-Meister, know what are the specific criteria to reach those different levels of defect (not just what is to be done)?
I have been told the rule-of-thumb is if you can hear a flat spot from more than 7 cars away it is bad. But our hearing is not a precise gauge, and varies from person to person.
I agree that flat spots are a problem and are probably not fixed as often as they were in years past, but trains are not falling off the rails left and right either and I believe derailment rates have actually been decreasing.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.