A few days ago a train hit a truck near me. Fortunately, no injuries were reported. In the discussion on the news station's web site someone said "The trains are required to sound their horn excessively a mile in advance plus they are required by law in Michigan to slow down a mile before reaching a crossing.". That stuck me as odd. I know that the horn thing is not quite correct, but are there really laws requiring trains to slow down for crossings? Michigan or anywhere? My guess is that this commenter is zero for two in the facts department.
I would have you inquire of the station's management as to what form of recreational pharacuticals their commenter has been overdosing on. He is much worse that 0 for 2 on the facts.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
From the OP, it sounds like it was a comment to an online news story and not someone at the news organization. But, they are 0-2.
If that was in Wyandotte on July 20, the report from WWJ indicates social media was reporting the driver ran the gates...
One of the commenters on the ClickOn Detroit website said that the trains blow their horns for a mile, excessively. Nothing about it being the law in that comment.
Another commenter then said it was the law.
The first is probably guilty of the same principal as the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" (it took the ambulance "20 minutes to get there, even though it was only five...) - it just seems like a mile. The second just plain has no clue...
However, several commenters mentioned that people regularly blow through the crossing even as the gates are coming down...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Of course, by the time the engineer saw the vehicle in the crossing it was too late to do anything except try to stop. The engineer may have kept the horn blowing, which sounded excessive to the person who complained.
I can understand a person's not being aware that the yellow band by the track at a passenger station is a No Trespassing sign, but for anyone to trespass on a track after the gates are down is the act of a totally non-thinking person.
Several years ago, while waiting for #6 in Sacramento, I noticed a man standing on the yellow band some distance away from me. As the engine came into view, the engineer began blowing the warning signal--which was not understaood by the man, and I was too far from him to reach him and tell him to get back. As it was, he was not hit.
Johnny
tree68 If that was in Wyandotte on July 20, the report from WWJ indicates social media was reporting the driver ran the gates... One of the commenters on the ClickOn Detroit website said that the trains blow their horns for a mile, excessively. Nothing about it being the law in that comment. Another commenter then said it was the law. The first is probably guilty of the same principal as the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" (it took the ambulance "20 minutes to get there, even though it was only five...) - it just seems like a mile. The second just plain has no clue... However, several commenters mentioned that people regularly blow through the crossing even as the gates are coming down...
That's the one.
It's a noisy area due to a lot of crossings. From this particlular crossing, there are others about 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 miles to the north and 1, 2, 2 1/2, and 4 miles to the south that I can think of just off the top of my head. Four tracks, all nice and open and straight. If you get more than one train in the area you will certainly hear quite a bit of horn blowing. I'm sure to those who live close by it seems incessant.
And, yes, running the gates is quite the local sport.
Thanks, everybody, for confirming that the slow-down law is fiction. I was tempted to post a "correction", but wasn't certain. We don't need more made-up stuff in the news.
JustWonderin'From this particlular crossing, there are others about 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 miles to the north and 1, 2, 2 1/2, and 4 miles to the south...
I hadn't looked at the actual map - but there are indeed a lot of crossings in the area, which could lead one to say that they start blowing a mile away and blow excessively.
As an aside - I watch the Deshler YouTube live cam a fair amount. East- and westbound trains have a certain pattern to their horns, and trains using the transfers are usually easy to pick out as well.
Southbound trains have about five crossings just a block or two apart each. If they are running at track speed (about 35), their horns are just about constant - it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
JustWonderin'are there really laws requiring trains to slow down for crossings?
Federal Law (Statute) - you are interfering with Interstatate Commerce.
And, by memorandum of agreement, there is also a state agency (some variation of a railroad commission / Public Utilities Commission) acting as an ombudsman neutral third party overseeing all public crossings in that particular state. Prevents rampant abuse by political agencies.
In Michigan:
Michigan Railroad Commission 1873-1919
Michigan Public Service Commission 1919 - 1969
Michigan Department of Transportation/ Rail Section 1969 - present
Section 462 of the Michigan Statutes is what applies to railroads in the state
(*) Putting the ombudsman in the Michigan DOT management tree creates a conflict of interest, especially in qualifications (IMHO - Transportation people are "bus people" without ANY railroad training or education. Being that state agencies promote from within, it becomes very hard to find anyone with a functional railroad understanding)
A federal court order will stop the local good-ol-boys from taking the law in their own hands.
tree68it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Grew up about three miles from the B&O line through Gelendale Ohio and would hear that streamlined Pacific blowing for the crossings in Springdale and Glendale. Sound traveled nicely in the evening but was distant. Watched it many a day at Winton Place, and when I could, I could watch it make its backup move across Spring Grove Ave. That was about 65 years ago. A real neat operation. NA tower controled the operation where the NYC and the B&O joined plus the signal and switch to the connecting track to the former CH&D B&O line to Toledo. Other end was a non interlocked jct. where a switchman operated hand throw switches. The trains hardly paused, reversing almost as quickly as they stopped. All gone now. Winton Place Station was relocated to Sharon Woods park and the Toledo division has a new double track viaduct over Spring Grove Ave. The Cardinal goes over it but its running time between Hamilton and Cincinnati is longer than the Cincinnatian's was.
tree68their horns are just about constant - it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
Electroliner 1935Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again.
Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler.
tree68 Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler.
Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again.
Deggesty tree68 Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler. It did run through Deshler.
It did run through Deshler.
The Cincinnatian began with the Baltimore - Cincinnati routing in January 1948. In June of 1950 because of a lack of patronage (there are no 'big' cities between Washington and Cincinnati). The train was moved to the Detroit - Cincinnati route.
Had the Baltimore-Cincinnati route proved wildly successful, the B&O would not have been able to add cars to the train. Five cars was the maximum the P-7d locomotives could handle over the grades between McKenzie and Grafton. To make the required schedule, the train had to bypass Cumberland. Cumberland passengers had to get transportation to/from Keyser, WV to utilize the train.
The Detroit-Cincinnati route had nowhere near the grades as the Baltimore-Cincinnati route and the P-7d's could handle several more cars.
Balt, was it planned in the beginning to bypass Cumberland?
DeggestyBalt, was it planned in the beginning to bypass Cumberland?
Yes - a trip into and through Cumberland would have added about an hour to the trip. The cutoff between Patterson Creek and McKenzie is about 6.5 miles in length, the trip through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles and 45 minutes to an hour to the running time.
I am not sure of where the operating crew changes were for the run. I believe that Grafton was the only crew change, I may be mistaken. I believe the locomotive took on water at Martinsburg on the run to Grafton and at Athens, OH on the run from Grafton to Cincinnati.
BaltACDthrough Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles
mudchickenFederal Law (Statute) - you are interfering with Interstatate Commerce.
Redwood City CA said 45 mph for SP trains in its city limits -- that probably lasted until 2003? Now trains are allowed 79 all the way thru. Did some federal law change?
Nothing really changed .... The feds started to flex their authorative muscle during the run up to establishment of the quiet zones in the late 1990's. When the feds and the local PUC/RR Commissions/PSC started the public hearing process, local government had their "come to jesus" moment. (One of the few good things to come out of the QZ rulemaking process IMHO ....There are still quite a few perceived warts - A big one falsely claimed is that a Quiet Zone is forever and cannot be revoked. That has appeared here in Denver with the RTD "A" and "G" Line screwups. QZ's can be revoked and have been, usually for the reason that local government did not mitigate the series of crossings like they agreed to and two because of repeated safety issues/fatalities)....
Simply Put: Cities/Counties/Towns do not have jurisdiction. They are subject to the state level administrative law process now handled by the MDOT Rail section.
timz BaltACD through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles Looks like the cutoff is about 10 miles shorter than via Cumberland.
BaltACD through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles
Looks like the cutoff is about 10 miles shorter than via Cumberland.
Sorry - I was going on timetable listed mileages - not looks like.
Your timetable says 16.8 miles Patterson Creek to McKenzie via Cumberland? And maybe 6.9 miles via the cutoff?
timzYour timetable says 16.8 miles Patterson Creek to McKenzie via Cumberland? And maybe 6.9 miles via the cutoff?
Not quite - Patterson Creek is MP BA 168.9. McKenzie is at BA 200.6. Viaduct Jct where the lines to Sand Patch and Grafton split is BF 178.4 (in reality BA 178.4 once you head to Grafton).
At the time of The Cincinnatian, Keyser was the main coal marashalling yard. Coal trains operated East from Keyser over the cutoff to Brunswick and Baltimore. Empties operated from Brunswick to Keyser where they got switched for delivery to the mines - remember these were the days before the Unit Train had even been thought of.
I don't have a B&O ETT that shows the Patterson Creek Cutoff, but looking at the SPV map, it was a littlle less than six miles long, so the cutoff saved about 25 miles as well as the grades.
In 1953, both the National Limited and the Diplomat bypassed Cumberland.
There are several towns around here that have dormant speed laws that are naturally not enforced. Have to wonder if the thinking is if speed control ever handed back to local agencies ? ? ?
Like the railroad law and risk management people will ever let that happen.
MC you have no idea how clue less that many local pols are around here ! Especially in respect to RRs !
(being an expert witness in court proceedings is part of my paycheck - I am continually amazed at what opposing lawyers try to argue, largely trying to buffalo the judge that they think may not be familiar with statute state and federal law. The attempts at playing the equity card and emotions create some comical outcomes, usually at the expense of the locals)
Read some of the outcomes and arguments from trials 100-150 years ago when the railroads were just getting started and regulation was not yet established to see why the chances of local control happening again are pretty close to zilch.
The sad part is that the railroads still must have huge legal expenses to fight off relentless waves of stupid local assertions by newly minted political hacks. Nobody learns from their predecessors.
blue streak 1 MC you have no idea how clue less that many local pols are around here ! Especially in respect to RRs !
BS1, It is not just around your area, either! It is somewhat amazing, that in an era when we seem to have brand-new attorneys, behind every ambulance. Simerly, newly minted politicians, think they can just wave their 'magic-legislative wands' to create more laws.
Thus, creating more of those troublesome 'Laws of unintended consequences'
Looks like the Professionals are constantly, being gifted, by the new 'legal minds' with job security.
blue streak 1Have to wonder if the thinking is if speed control ever handed back to local agencies ? ? ?
Why look any further than the response of just about any local politician to the general idea of HSR passing through their district, or for that matter any sort of Barrington-style service increase affecting crossings or back yards.
You can bet your bottom dollar that many more towns would have officers with radar guns shooting every train coming through, and arranging to stop anything exceeding local limits with the intent of filing traffic charges against the 'license' of any engineer stupid enough to have it on his person. Why would any elected government allow non-voting (but mandatorily taxpaying) railroads or their trains any particular consideration when visible voter concerns haven't been addressed?
On the other hand, there's the use of the radar guns to check on the railroad's speed limits at various points -- and presumably the subsequent ratting-out, weed-weasel-fashion, of any detected malefaction. Or the use of town cell phones to capture rules violations, particularly 'strict scrutiny' during stoppages. I almost hesitate to mention this, lest the idea catch on in many of these communities, but I fear it would get around most of the safeguards that Federal pre-emption now provides.
BaltACDPatterson Creek is MP BA 168.9. McKenzie is at BA 200.6.
Deggestythe cutoff saved about 25 miles as well as the grades.
Overmod-- That does sound kind of foretelling. I suppose in that case one would have to obey the Laws and speed limits for every little hamlet along the way. Rigorous enforcement of every little thing could end up being a prime source of revenue, cause endless debate getting nowhere in legislatures and mayhem for the carriers.
Getting stopped for an infraction in much of the South and Texas in particular, driving with a Canadian Drivers License, is almost a sure "follow me to the station" and hours of wait and if your lucky, allowed a call to the Canadian Consulate. That's not the real law but that's the reality. It's essentially a cash grab.
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