kankakee belt...

[Anonymous]

just curious if this line is used anymore. i believe it went to NS after the conrail deal. the rails west of streator look pretty rusty, its nice looking track though, welded rail (the parts i've seen anyway) and nice roadbed. the only traffic west of streator was to the steel mill in hennepin but that shut down for a while maybe 2-3 years ago and is now reopened. i see a LOT of trucks hauling coils, but still rusty rails...

[kenneo]

The only reason for that tracks existance is to intechange between the old NYC and the ATSF since the Chicago gateway was a real pain. Its intent when built by the NYC was to gain market share with the ATSF from the Iowa roads, the ERIE and the PRR. There is no longer any reason for its existance.

[Anonymous]

How long is the line?

[MP173]

The original Kankakee Belt formed a nice arcing semicircle from South Bend, Indiana (ex NYC mainline, today NS) down thru the Indiana farm country thru Kankakee to Streator (ATSF) on to Depue (CRIP) and to Zearing (Burlington). Total distance was 200.2 miles.

Sometime in the 80's the line from South Bend to Wheatfield, In was removed. Wheatfield has a NIPSCO power plant which receives coal trains.

Before the Conrail splitup, they ran trains from Elkhart to ATSF (BNSF). I believe these trains still run. I havent been to Streator lately, but in the late 90's they were regular trains (I believe 2 each way daily plus a Kankakee local). The trains came off the ATSF main at the south side of Streator and made a rather sharp right hand turn, proceeding to Schneider, In and then north on ex NYC line to Cairo, Il. The line at some point becomes the Indiana Harbor Belt and proceeds thru Gibson to join the NS Chicago main at East Chicago.

This routing should exist today. I would be surprized if BNSF & NS would route manifest trains thru Chicago. This line is unsignalled for the most part, but in excellent condition with welded rail. At one time it was a 49 MPH line.

The severe curve at Streator probably restricts Intermodal traffic. I dont know the particulars (curvature) but I believe there has been past problems with derailments on the curve.

There was a yard west of Kankakee with engine servicing facilities.

It seems like a natural bypass of Chicago.

ed

[Anonymous]

I sure miss working at Hamlet (IN) Tower and watching Sparky bring SF-1 under
US-30 and around the curve going past my tower.
Merry Christmas to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gtirr

[Anonymous]

gtirr:
Did the Kankakee Belt go under US 30? I assume from your post that it did. I live in Knox and follow the abandoned row sometimes. I could never figure out where the crossing of HWY 30 was. The Post Office in Knox is built on the former KK Belt row.
Mitch

[MP173]

gtirr and Artmark:

Merry Christmas to both of you.

I never got to see Hamlet Tower unfortunately. I do have lots of fond memories of Hamlet as my wife was from Hamlet. In fact, the boys and I are heading back there for Christmas dinner in a couple of hours.

The Kankakee belt ran under US 30. The eliminated the bridge several years ago. I remember back 10-15 years ago when passing over the bridge you could see the ROW...now I cant see it.

What about the grade crossing tower in Knox? I got one picture of that years ago.

DId either of you see North Judson tower? I was in it once back inthe late 70's before it was torn down. Neat junction, unfortunately at the time, hardly no trains were running thru. Ditto Kouts Tower. I was there once about 1978 (I lived in Valpo, 10 miles away, but was more interested in the mainline traffic at the time, instead of recording history). There was a train on the PRR Panhandle line that was several miles off. At the time, the PRR was probably a 10mph line. I waited and waited and waited...and left. Wish I had a "re-do" on that.

Kouts and North Judson would have been interesting places to spend a day back in the late 60's/early 70's with the EL running thru. Oh well.

Merry Christmas,

ed

[MP173]

Mark:

Thanks for the detailed update. I sure wasnt expecting that. Like you, the J and the K lines have always intrigued me...more for the reasons of "why" or rather "why not".

Let me summarize what you stated to see if i have it straight. I think so, but, bear with me....

BTW what is "CTCO"?

Ok, at this point in time, there is not enough carload (or intermodal, but more on that later) to justify significant run around trains bypassing Chicago. I believe, but do not have access that there are still trains running BNSF to NS via Kankakee and I believe there might be North Platte trains to both NS and CSX. but I do not have any access to confirm that.

But, basically, the carload traffic is simply not there. In order to build that solid train, it would take in excess of one day to accumulate the tonnage/revenue necessary. Is that correct?

If so...then I have been completely overestimating the amount of carload traffic that moves today. COMPLETELY OVERESTIMATING IT!

Has there been that big of shift away from carload? I know there was an article a few years ago that indicated something like only 4 daily carload freights on the ex Santa Fe mainline... is my memory correct?

If so, no wonder I enjoy seeing the boxcars roll today, a manifest train is the exception rather than the rule, just the opposite of my childhood days when a piggyback train was special.



The CN (ex GTW) seems to be the exception here. Sure, there are quite a few solid auto trains, but there is a significant carload business on that line.

The NS - Wabash Kansas city line would seem to be a candidate for some serious investment in the coming years...do you agree?

If I remember correctly the article in Trains back 10 years ago said it was near capacity, with over 30 trains daily. What are the traffic levels today?

It would seem with the Conrail merger (or splitup, whichever is the better term), there would be significant traffic bypassing Chicago from KC and then turning right at the ex Conrail mainline, both carload and intermodal.

Does NS have any long term stratigic plans for upgrading that line?

Mark, the amount of traffic into or out of Chicago is significant. Particularly intermodal these days. My theory, one I probably borrowed from something I read, is that the boxcar traffic evaporated from the rails, into the trucks about 30 - 40 years ago, and is now moving back onto the rails, in the form of managed logistical movements via Hunt, Schneider, UPS, USF, and others.

Unfortunately the growth aspect of railroading is on the low margin stuff which has very good competition (the truckers).

So, it is a good news/bad news world for the rails...good news is increased business, but at very low margins. Which leads to..."how are we going to finance this expansion???"

Ding, ding, ding...the light is starting to come on for me.

I guess the important issue for the rails is how to increase the portion of their business which is profitable ( I do not have any clue which commodities/traffic lanes that would be) to help finance the low end marginal growth.

As I once said in a sales meeting...."Volume is vanity and profit is sanity". But, you need some of both.

Merry Christmas,

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

gtirr and Artmark:

Merry Christmas to both of you.

I never got to see Hamlet Tower unfortunately. I do have lots of fond memories of Hamlet as my wife was from Hamlet. In fact, the boys and I are heading back there for Christmas dinner in a couple of hours.

The Kankakee belt ran under US 30. The eliminated the bridge several years ago. I remember back 10-15 years ago when passing over the bridge you could see the ROW...now I cant see it.

What about the grade crossing tower in Knox? I got one picture of that years ago.

DId either of you see North Judson tower? I was in it once back inthe late 70's before it was torn down. Neat junction, unfortunately at the time, hardly no trains were running thru. Ditto Kouts Tower. I was there once about 1978 (I lived in Valpo, 10 miles away, but was more interested in the mainline traffic at the time, instead of recording history). There was a train on the PRR Panhandle line that was several miles off. At the time, the PRR was probably a 10mph line. I waited and waited and waited...and left. Wish I had a "re-do" on that.

Kouts and North Judson would have been interesting places to spend a day back in the late 60's/early 70's with the EL running thru. Oh well.

Merry Christmas,

ed

One of the grade crossing towers is just north of Knox, sitting on a farm. But I think it's a NKP tower. One of the other gate towers is on the property of a local doctor outside of Knox.
When I was in highschool, in the mid '60s, one of our locations to train watch was North Judson. I remember the tower quite clearly. What a fabulous place and town. By the way, North Judson is now re-defining themselves as "America's Railroad Town," and some of the businesses are beginning to use a railroad theme. This in connection with Kankakee Valley Railroad Museum an the town's purchase of the Pere Marquette (C&O-CSX) line up to Wellsboro.I can recall Pennsy Passenger trains running at 60mph on track that was only good for 30. I remember The Lake Cities going through No Judson. In the '60s North West Indiana had tons of junctions and towers that we would visit. The action was non-stop, and the variety of trains and equipment was incomparable. My favorite was Wanatah. You could see a southbound drag on the Monon with big Alcos, and then the eastbound Broadway. Followed by the westbound Fort Pitt. Twentyfive baggage cars and two rpos, 2 dirty coaches, and a whole string of Railway Express boxcars and refers followed by a Pennsy passenger equiped (steam and signal line) cabin car.
Mitch

[MP173]

Mitch:

By the time I hit Wanatah Tower, it was Amtrak and the Monon was Family Lines. I did get one photo of a Southbound L&N once.

I got to know the operator at Wanatah and he gave me some old train sheets from the 40's. These were the records of the trains passing, I dont know what the correct name was. Lots of passenger trains during the war era.

Have you ever been to the tower in Lacrosse? I would like to see that up close before something happens to it.

ed

[Anonymous]

MP173
I've never been up close to the LaCrosse Tower. I never can find the access road. But there it sits. Out in the fields, abandoned with it's yellow bricks glowing in the sun. We never got to it in the hey-days either. I'm referring to the tower that's west and north of town along hwy 421. I never saw the depot or tower for the Panhandle. Since all that property is now in the hands of the town of North Judson by virtue of the ownership of the line I think that C&O tower may be safe.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

MP-173,

Do you remember the Opr's name at Wanatah?
I also worked there as well as Plymouth and Warsaw towers before I was promoted to a Train Dispatcher and then worked in Ft. Wayne.
gtirr

[MP173]

gtirr:

Young guy with blonde hair. In the late 1970's he and I were probably the same age, so I am going to say he was about 25 at the time. I have a picture of him highballing an EB Amtrak at Wanatah, standing outside the tower.

I drove to Hamlet this weekend and there is a little path south of US 30 where the ROW was. Also, down by the golf course you can see a path.

How many trains were ran on the Kankakee Belt back in the early 70's? Did the NYC/PC run just to the Santa Fe, or was there a Rock Island train?

Artmark: Is the LaCrosse tower brick? If so....WOW.

I have fond memories of the C&O running from LaCrosse up to Wellsboro and making the loop to enter the B&O. Got to know the operator up at Wellsboro really well (that seemed to be the story of my life back in the 70's...got to know operators, but didnt get to know any women!). I would go see him and spend the shift with him. That was a really scenic little town with lots of great angles for pictures. I was there this fall, my how things have changed.

ed

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

John G. Kneiling once opined in his column that the Kankakee Belt was too far from Chicago and suggested that the Joliet Branch should be upgraded and take its place as a bypass route. It connected with both RI and ATSF and was close enough to Chicago to pick up some local traffic.

[Anonymous]

Ed,
It looks like it's made of yellow glazed brick. I've only seen it from about a block away. It glows in the sunlight.
Mitch

[MP173]

Mitch:

Sounds like a road trip is in order.

Mark:

Did you get my email?

ed

[MP173]

Hegewisch:

I think you are right. I do seem to recall the Iconoclast promoted the Joliet line. However, at the time he couldnt have projected what that area would be like. The Kankakee belt would probably be more appropriate now, or at least in 20 years.

Does anyone know...is John Kneiling still alive? He certainly was ahead of his time. Or better yet, the railroads were behind the time.

I would certainly enjoy reading a collection of his writings, with commentary updating and refreshing his concepts.

Now, that would be a project!

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Mitch:

Sounds like a road trip is in order.

Ed,
Shoot to me an email when you're around.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173



The NS - Wabash Kansas city line would seem to be a candidate for some serious investment in the coming years...do you agree?

If I remember correctly the article in Trains back 10 years ago said it was near capacity, with over 30 trains daily. What are the traffic levels today?

Since you didn't get an answer on that, I can volunteer some info based upon personal observation of that line, I live 1/2 mile from it, in Ft Wayne.

Traffic seems down considerably from 1 1/2 - 2 years ago, it was hopping thru most of the summer ir 2003, used to be I could go down there any time of the day, and catch several trains. Now there are just clusters of activity, 2 or 3 trains early morning, late morning, and early afternoon, with a lot of dead time in between. Then, there are a few more into the evening/night, but NOTHING like a couple short years ago.

Merely speculating, but it would look to me that they could get any desired "extra" capacity out of that line simply by adjusting schedules to hit the dead spots.

The main through town is a double track, but quickly chokes down to single at the edge of town on each end. If the need arose, it appears that any land needed for doubling that line would be an easy matter , just having the farmers to deal with. And, several of the bridge overpasses through town where the line is currently doubled, appear to have been built with the possibility of adding a 3rd line provided for, including a trestle over the river very near my house, where while the span is only 2 tracks wide, the stone foundation and center pier were obviously built wide enough to accomodate a third line, when needed.

Based upon what I've seen lately though, the "when needed" is likely to be the stickler, unless something dramatic changes. (fyi)[:)]

[MP173]

Anti:

What happened? Has traffic flows changed?

Over here on the Chicago - Ft. Wayne NKP line traffic seems to be up a bit. They are running 2 sections of most of the intermodals.

Ed

[Anonymous]

I've noticed a bit of an increase myself on the NKP through Knox. Saw a hot stack train today that had a Rio Grande unit in the consist.
Who's that whistle artist that has to sound a loud, long signal for each crossing in the middle of the night?
Ed. Can you reveal your location (geography wise, not in front of the computer)
Mitch

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Anti:

What happened? Has traffic flows changed?

Over here on the Chicago - Ft. Wayne NKP line traffic seems to be up a bit. They are running 2 sections of most of the intermodals.

Ed

As far as "what happened" in context with traffic on this portion of the former Wabash,...it might be nice to get "rrnut" 's input on that, as to the "whys".

All I can tell you for sure is that up until late summer 2003, you didn't need to look at a clock to do any serious train watching. All you had to do was walk down to the tracks, and see near non-stop action. It was kinda cool having a hot spot so close by and easily accessible.

Since then (roughly fall, 2003) you have to plan your walks a little more carefully with an eye on the clock, otherwise risk seeing perhaps only one train over a couple hour timespan.

****PURELY SPECULATING**** The growth has been tremendous here as the Triple Crown main hub, and with recent additions of new spurs into the TC yard, Norfolk Southern seems intent upon growing that market segment. Getting TC trains in and out of the TC yard seems to throw a minor wrench into what once was a free flowing "thru" traffic pattern. So, my guess is that NS now routes whatever thru trains it can, away from Ft Wayne, to make room for TC and it's expected growth. merely speculating, though, Let me make sure I am clear about that.

Someone was saying that NS's getting their feet planted solidly operationwise, on the former NYC line to Chicago had something to do with this too. I guess that freight that used to travel St Louis-Cleveland via the Wabash and Nickle Plate is now being routed via Chicago. But that is stictly hearsay.

[MP173]

Mitch:

Milepost 477.1 on the Nickle Plate Line aka...Valparaiso, In.

It is a busy night on the Nickle Plate...dispatcher just set up a meet between I64 and 215 at South Wanatah, 882 is at Van Loon with yet another load of coal or coke to stoke the steel industry, 13N is wandering around as it always does....looking to find a slot into Gibson Yard.

Anti:

I cannot imagine the NS running StLouis trains via Chicago. They have no direct route that I can think of. They use the Illinois Central line to Gibson City, Il, which would be slow and expensive.

The NS runs a pretty tight ship, at least over here close to Chicago. Perhaps they figured out a way to get that traffic detoured around Ft. Wayne down to Muncie and Frankfort, at least the Bellevue traffic.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173



I cannot imagine the NS running StLouis trains via Chicago. They have no direct route that I can think of. They use the Illinois Central line to Gibson City, Il, which would be slow and expensive.

The NS runs a pretty tight ship, at least over here close to Chicago. Perhaps they figured out a way to get that traffic detoured around Ft. Wayne down to Muncie and Frankfort, at least the Bellevue traffic.

ed

Ed,

You may very well be correct...as I said, it was just hearsay... What it amounted to was laments pertaining to the reduction in traffic, and comments postulating that the NYC line was a culprit. They may very well have been beating a straw dog.

[Anonymous]

Ed. I'm in Valpo every week either visiting a good client, VU, or going to Menards.
Contact me off line.
Mitch

[jabrown1971]

Semms to me-been a long time though-that from Cleveland NS could use ex-NKP to Bellevue and Lafayette, then switch over to the old Waba***o St Louis. Clear route, with no Chicago, but can't remember about Ft Wayne. I didn't realize that Ft Wayne had become such a bottleneck. Seems like with a little preblocking of cars at Cleveland, NS trains could just sail right on through Ft Wayne with only a crew change. Please help me there, I am not too familiar with NS ops in northern, In.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jabrown1971

Semms to me-been a long time though-that from Cleveland NS could use ex-NKP to Bellevue and Lafayette, then switch over to the old Waba***o St Louis. Clear route, with no Chicago, but can't remember about Ft Wayne. I didn't realize that Ft Wayne had become such a bottleneck. Seems like with a little preblocking of cars at Cleveland, NS trains could just sail right on through Ft Wayne with only a crew change. Please help me there, I am not too familiar with NS ops in northern, In.

It's not a "congestion" bottleneck. It is a "servicing Triple Crown" logistics dilemma.

It's kinda hard to explain, but NS is using a big portion of the former PRR Piqua yard for the Triple crown facility, Which is physically located approx 1/2 mile off of the NS mainline, upstream on the single former PRR line that crosses both NS mains at "Mike" junction.

So, to get an incoming TC train into the facility, they have to customarily stop on the NS main, throw some switches, back down the former PRR main, till they reach the spur feeding into the TC yard.

When opposing meets occur, and one or more of the trains has to enter the TC yard, things tend to get backed up on the mainline, as eveyone gets to wait while the inbound gets shoved back up the crossing former PRR line, to reach the TC spur. I've seen some interesting snarls where the mainline looks more like a parking lot, with 2 thru trains waiting for in inbound TC to even show up, just to get it out of their way

It works, but only because the thru traffic is a fraction of what it was 2 years ago

[jabrown1971]

Seems like a new, more convenient facility might be in order?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jabrown1971

Seems like a new, more convenient facility might be in order?

You'd have to ask one of the guys making the big bux, on that one.

NS just "doubled" the spur leading into the TC yard this past summer. But stopped short of doubling it all the way out to the NS Mains.

Both spurs now combine into one, then further combine with the single former PRR main before junctioning with the NS Main, And I think it was RRNUT who said the railroad didn't think it was economically justifyable to buid much more plant into it, than the improvements they did this summer.

So, it appears the RR is content looking for the status quo to continuel

Just an armchair observation, but, if those main lines returned to a level of service they had 2 years ago, NS would have a real problem..

[MP173]

Mitch:

I sent you an email the other day...did you get it? If not, try emailing me. Lets get together sometime.

ed